Don't the 9mm's deserve some discussion time?

[MachIVshooter]

All I have to say on the subject is I miss ".380" being referred to as 9mm Corto or 9mm Kurz.
Made it feel so much more sophisticated.

But it was originally introduced as .380 ACP and has always been that here. Plenty of European guns and ammo boxes labeled that way, as well as 9mm Browning short

 

[BJung]

I think a .380 is too small. I'd choose a .22lr semi-auto before that. A 9 MAK is better and I'd choose that only because the handgun use to be really cheap. I don't like the 9mm. I own one because I reload and the brass is everywhere. A 9mm is like a .38 Special to me. I'd choose a compact revolver before a 9mm because I can put it in my pocket and don't have to rack it or have it one safety.. A .357 Sig to a 9mm is like a .357 mag to a .38 Special. I could take a .40 and swtich out the barrel for a .357 Sig or shoot a lighter .40 bullet.

 

[21H40]

... for heavens sake. What answer are you seeking?

To be fair, I'm less interested in any real answers than I am with the debate. There are lots of strong opinions when it comes to 40+ diameter rounds, but for reasons I don't comprehend, the 9mm family isn't talked about,. It seems like there shouldn't be much difference between 9x17 and 9x18 or 9x18 and 9x19, (though there is apparently a 50% difference between 9x17 and 9x19).

For the nin-o-philes here, why one over the other?

 

[Scooter22]

I think a .380 is too small. I'd choose a .22lr semi-auto before that. A 9 MAK is better and I'd choose that only because the handgun use to be really cheap. I don't like the 9mm. I own one because I reload and the brass is everywhere. A 9mm is like a .38 Special to me. I'd choose a compact revolver before a 9mm because I can put it in my pocket and don't have to rack it or have it one safety.. A .357 Sig to a 9mm is like a .357 mag to a .38 Special. I could take a .40 and swtich out the barrel for a .357 Sig or shoot a lighter .40 bullet.

I rest my case.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

IIRC 380/9MM Short, etc., is the most powerful round a blowback action can handle.

 

[WrongHanded]

Seriously, why are the same arguments used in the 40/10 threads not applied to 9mm? Aren't those arguments valid across the board?

They are applied, and they are valid. But the 9x19mm fans really don't enjoy the discussion, because it hard to remain logical about why 9x19mm is better than .380acp, and still avoid admitting that the .357 Sig is better.

 

[21H40]

They are applied, and they are valid. But the 9x19mm fans really don't enjoy the discussion, because it hard to remain logical about why 9x19mm is better than .380acp, and still avoid admitting that the .357 Sig is better.

I mean, one could argue that because the SIG round is built from a 40 case, it isn't actually in the same family as the other 9mm's. That, and there's some science stuff (Bernouli? I've long forgotten) relating to the column of force through a bottleneck and extra velocity.

 

[WestKentucky]

IIRC 380/9MM Short, etc., is the most powerful round a blowback action can handle.

Tell that to hipoint.

 

[BJung]

I mean, one could argue that because the SIG round is built from a 40 case, it isn't actually in the same family as the other 9mm's. That, and there's some science stuff (Bernouli? I've long forgotten) relating to the column of force through a bottleneck and extra velocity.

The Sig is a necked down 10. Being interested in the Sig, I did a search and story came up about an Officer in Texas who had a Sig and his partner insisted on using a .45. A shootout occurred and the .45 was putting dents in the car door. But, the Sig shot through it. The Sig is close to a .357-125gr load

 

[Kevinq6]

The Sig is a necked down 10. Being interested in the Sig, I did a search and story came up about an Officer in Texas who had a Sig and his partner insisted on using a .45. A shootout occurred and the .45 was putting dents in the car door. But, the Sig shot through it. The Sig is close to a .357-125gr load

I was about to correct you but it seems you are correct, the .357 sig is a necked down 10mm. I did not know the sig and 9x25 Dillon had the same parent case.

 

[P5 Guy]

You forgot the 38 Super.

 

[JohnKSa]

There are a ton of 9mm cartridges, especially if you consider that the .38/.357 family is essentially the same bullet diameter to within a couple thousandths of an inch or so.

If we look at just the 9mm autopistol cartridges, here's an incomplete list:

.380ACP
.38ACP
.38Super (Same as .38ACP but higher pressure/performance)
9x18 Ultra
9x18 Makarov (more like a 9.2mm)
9mm Largo
9x25 Dillon (10mm shortened and necked down to 9mm)
9x25 Mauser
.38/45 Auto. (.45ACP necked down to 9mm)
.357SIG
9x23 Steyr
9x23 Winchester
9mm Browning Long
9x21mm

Rather than talk about the .380ACP and the 9mm, why not look at the .38ACP and the .38Super? They are two cartridges that are dimensionally identical and originally loaded with identical weight bullets. Why is the .38Super still around while the .38ACP not? When you have that answer, it should provide a lot of insight.

 

[Mini30SS]

I think the major distinction of the calibers, is mainly the firearms that are produced for each caliber. You can get a very tiny carry gun in .380 caliber, ie true "pocket pistols", and the 380 is vastly superior to a 25 or 32 acp in that role. Stepping up to 9x19, ie 9mm luger gets you up to a more traditional self defense size pistol for concealed or open carry, with a significant increase in stopping power. Along with much less expensive practice rounds. 38 super is pretty much limited to 1911 size pistols. Fine if that's what you want. I prefer a lighter, and ergonomically better, and smaller carry pistol.

 

[CDW4ME]

Why carry a 9mm Parabellum when a 380 is practically the same?

Well, they are the same diameter.
Use the criteria of at least 12'' penetration and consistent expansion after heavy clothing, the number of 380 vs 9mm that meet that criteria will assuredly not be the same.

 

[Ks5shooter]

Why visit a discussion board then? .

Component and ammo availability change with time.New info always welcome for me.MHO

 

[jmorris]

Why carry a 9mm Parabellum when a 380 is practically the same?

Because the 9mm is still more powerful and abundant. Until they come out with a different powder technology that for some reason couldn’t be utilized in 9mm the higher operating pressure and additional case volume will always have it come out on top.

 

[PapaG]

Lunchbox Joe ended all that discussion when he elevated the 9mm to the top of the pile by saying it can simply blow the lungs out. Nuff said.

 

[jmr40]

In theory a 380 might be able to be loaded closer to 9mm, but pistol design is the limiting factor. I'm sure I'm not going to be 100% accurate with this, so someone is welcome to correct me. But most 380 pistols use a simple blow back design much like a 22 which limits the amount of pressure the gun can handle.

9X19, as well as most other larger pistols use a tilting barrel arrangement which can handle greater pressure allowing more powerful rounds. I'm sure someone else can explain that better, but 9mm can always be considerably more potent than 380.

Loads for 9mm and 38 Special are all over the place. With the better loads both 9mm and 38 Special can be nipping right on the heels of 357 mag. Especially with 124/125 gr bullets. The 357 mag will outclass 9mm only when you go to heavier bullets.

Don't confuse the numbers you see published in ballistics charts with real world speeds. All of the ballistics charts show 357 mag from 7" or 8" barrels; all semi auto rounds from 4" or 5" barrels. You don't see many people carrying 8" barreled 357 mag revolvers for SD, but 4" to 4.5" is pretty much the norm for semi-autos. We shouldn't be surprised to see any rifle or handgun lose considerable speed when 1/2 the barrel is gone.

If you compare semi-auto pistols with roughly the same overall length as revolvers you'll find that a 4" 9mm pistol is about the same overall length as 2 1/2" or 3" 357 mag revolvers. And you'll find muzzle velocity with 124/125 gr bullets to be virtually the same in the real world.

And then there is perception. In Europe 9mm has traditionally been loaded much faster than in the USA. Our parents and grandparents grew up with woefully underpowered USA made ammo. A 115 gr bullet at 1100 fps was the norm. With those loads 9mm developed a deserved reputation as weak that still remains today for a lot of people.

But modern 9mm loads will get 1250-1300 fps with 124 gr bullets which is within 50 fps of the same speeds you'd get with 357 mag from 4" barrels. About the same, or faster than 357 mag from barrels shorter than 4".

The 357 Sig is an interesting round that will beat 9mm by 50 fps or so. But that isn't enough to offset the added costs and reduced mag capacity. At least not for me. I feel about the same about the other faster 9mm cartridges.

 

[bearcreek]

For the nin-o-philes here, why one over the other?

I'm not a "nin-o-phile" (I don't give a rats rear what people use) but there's an easy answer to that question. Availability.

I think there should be a law that any gun owner who wants to engage in a caliber debate must go take at least a week of handgun combat training from someone who has extensive experience using them for real and then must maintain a consistent physical fitness program. We'd have a whole lot fewer caliber discussions and a whole lot better gun owners.

 

[Hasaf]

In theory a 380 might be able to be loaded closer to 9mm, but pistol design is the limiting factor. I'm sure I'm not going to be 100% accurate with this, so someone is welcome to correct me. But most 380 pistols use a simple blow back design much like a 22 which limits the amount of pressure the gun can handle.

That should say, "many of the 380 pistols sold in the last century used. . . "

I find it a bit amusing when modern gun writers, when introducing some new 380, include a line like, "unlike most 380 pistols, this one isn't a blowback." The part that makes it amusing is when they use that same line over and over again. A quick perusal of modern 380 pistols would lead to the understanding that most are not blowback. Yes, there are a few bargain basement models (High Point) and copies of nearly 100-year-old designs (Bersa). However, nearly all 380 pistols from this century are not blowback.

 

[JohnKSa]

Yup. In the 1990s, when I went looking for a .380ACP pistol for carry, they were nearly all blowback. Now the reverse is true.

But most 380 pistols use a simple blow back design much like a 22 which limits the amount of pressure the gun can handle.

The issue with blowback designs and powerful cartridges isn't so much pressure as it is slide velocity. At some point as the power increases the slide will open too quickly and there will still be enough pressure in the barrel/chamber at that point to rupture the cartridge casing. Dangerous.

You can deal with this by increasing the slide weight (as High-Point does) but the point of .380ACP was to make very small, but relatively powerful guns possible. Putting a big, heavy slide on the gun defeated the original purpose of the .380ACP so it just wasn't done--with maybe one or two exceptions.

 

[CoalTrain49]

LE and military usually knows what works for them. If it isn't working they change it. The popularity of 9x19 in both the military and LE has influenced the civilian market for a number of good reasons. I won't go into it but lets just say we, as civilians, generally gravitate toward what they use, in some form. 9x19 is no different.

A good example of this is the 357 Sig, which fell out of favor in the civilian market when LE abandoned it. If the military and LE abandoned the 9x19 I expect the same thing would happen to it. The cartridge is over 120 years old but just became popular in the US about 30 years ago when the military and LE started using it. There are better and worse 9mm cartridges for sure.

 

[Styx]

The logical conclusion is that 22LR is as good as 45ACP.

I've argued with many people on gun forums who believe that. "It's all about shot placement and caliber doesn't matter."

 

[hq]

I've argued with many people on gun forums who believe that. "It's all about shot placement and caliber doesn't matter."

Yep. Caliber and target ballistics don't matter to perfect, infallible shooters who can place their shots with pinpoint accuracy in any situation.

Energy and momentum are considerations for the rest of us, mere mortals, whose aim might be a few inches off and would still like the target to be incapacitated as intended.

 

[50of4064]

Why?