Drawing to a Drawn Knife

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Packman

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I think we're most all familiar with the idea that it's a bad idea to draw when someone has a drawn gun on you.

But, let's assume that someone has a drawn knife on you. They've demonstrated the ability, shown the intent, and have the proximity to kill or seriously wound you. Let's assume, independent of state laws and moral obligations, that you're totally justified in shooting them.

But they're RIGHT THERE! They've got a hand on your coat, maybe, and a knife in their other hand!

Would you draw to a drawn knife?
 
I think I'd probably try something else.

Dennis Tueller's experiments showed that a person with an edged weapon moving from seven yards away can close that distance and use the weapon in about the time it takes a trained LEO to draw and fire. I really don't think I would stand a chance if I were to try to draw from concealment if the distance had already been closed.
 
Depends on the look in the dudes eyes. I could palm strike him faster than I could get my gun, so I would probably take that route. Also, I have had a knife or two pulled on me before and so am not so intimidated by a moron with a blade.
 
If you've let someone get close enough to get a hand on your coat you've done something terribly wrong already.
 
Bubba613 said:
If you've let someone get close enough to get a hand on your coat you've done something terribly wrong already.
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Srsly? Because I can count far too many scenarios where an aggressor can close to attack range with only a mote's worth of warning through no fault of the victim.
 
well look at it this way.....what are your options?

assuming you cant run away...

you try and fight with him.....knife vs bare hands....unless you are bruce lee, you are probably not going to fair to well....


go for your gun...you may get cut up and stabbed while going for your gun......but you are going to get cut either way.....so might as well try and go for the gun and hope you dont get too seriously injured in the meantime....
 
And you can't walk around in our society warning people to keep their distance 24/7. You'll look like a paranoid sociopathic moron for onething, and for another, you'd never get anything done. People get that close to you all the time.

Watch "Die Less Often" by Marc Denny and Gabe Suarez. If you draw to a knife you might as well be a sushi plate. You have to handle the knife first (which is the subject of the video)and go to the gun when you can.

Stats show that 85% of people shot by a handgun live. 65% of those stabbed by a knife live. If you bring a gun to a knife fight you're already behind the curve, and in this situation it's 100% certain that you'll test those statistics. Have to handle the knife first.

Dan
 
Whatever you do, you have to be totally convicted to doing it, do it fast and violently.

My move would be a upward palm strike to the chin, move backwards, draw and shoot.

Regarding Tueller, keep in mind that the gun fighter remained stationary. If you move off the line of attack, or backwards you buy extra time to draw and shoot. Moving and shooting skills are essential to gun fighting self defense.
 
The skills of Bruce Lee aren't necessary to defend against knife attack. Much of course depends on your opponent and his knife skills, physical fitness, aggression, and your skills/abilities. In the given scenario I'd use hand to hand combative skills to generate the space and time to draw and fire on the opponent.

In my youth I've been menaced with both a knife and the classic 'broken bottle'. I was entirely unarmed in both instances. Both incidents ended with my opponent unarmed and myself unharmed. Nothing fancy or heroic occurred but the lesson is, don't assume you are screwed if somebody decides to use slice and dice on you...even if unarmed.
 
If you've let someone get close enough to get a hand on your coat you've done something terribly wrong already.
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Not everyone is as tuned in 24/7 as they think they are. Life just offers too many distractions.

+1 on the "Die Less Often" I and II DVD's. Also consider an AMOK! class, S.I. 0-5Ft Gunfighting, any of SouthNarc's classes...

If you want to overcome this scenario, there are resources availalble.
 
Don't take turns. It is not a 'he stabs you, you draw and wait to be stabbed again, then you shoot once, wait to be stabbed again, shoot" deal. Figure out what is going on fast, decide what you need to do fast, and do it faster than him. Move and shoot, or move and do something else, whatever. Don't 'draw to a knife', draw and shoot all at once. Commit fast - don't second guess yourself, whatever you decide fast is the best choice.

You will instinctively know whether you can take somebody in a hand-to-hand fight, whether you should fight or run. Your mind evolved to process weight, size, shape, presence and menace instantly. Train and practice to improve your instincts. If the time comes, trust your instincts (whether you've practiced or not).
 
I would run backwards while drawing my gun.
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Maybe you can run backwards faster than he can run forward, but do you think you can move faster than the blade in his thrusting hand??
 
Seems likely in many cases this scenario could be difficult to defend.

Distance, distraction, or disarmament would be first in my mind.

Once he attacks and draws blood, IMO, the BG's obviated ANY demonstration of "fear for life" or "forcible felony". Which leads me to believe that while someone with a gun may bluff, once a BG with a knife attacks, from his perspective, he's probably better off finishing YOU off.
 
There is no simple solution to this question.

Knife stuff, like gun stuff, isn't something that you can pick up without effort, a good instructor, and some force on force learning.

Typing bad advice on the internet could get someone hurt...
 
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"AGGRESSIVENESS" and "RUTHLESSNESS."

Jeff Cooper taught two principles that come to mind: "AGGRESSIVENESS" and "RUTHLESSNESS."

Paraphrased: Aggressiveness = time to go crazy; eye gouges, throat rips, knees to groin, whatever.

Ruthlessness = Having the mindset that if some guy is grabbing you by the coat with a knife in hand, he does not deserve to live--you must put him down.

Lastly, recognize that there is a very high likelihood that you will get cut. Accept that as a possibility and move onward.

By saying "accept that possibility" I don't mean to give in to it--I just mean that you should recognize it and not allow FEAR of getting cut to prevent you from gouging eyes, ripping throats, cutting back or whatever it is you need to do in order to implement Cooper's principles above.
 
See #4

This is why being dependent upon one tool/technique won't always serve you well.

I wouldn't personally go for my gun since I've trained against knife attacks and survived one on the street, but most folks will have to decide if they're going to risk getting cut/stabbed to get to their sidearm.
 
Yes, absolutely I would draw. He might well be able to approach and stab me before I shoot, but I will have a better chance of living if I'm shooting him while he's stabbing me. Unless he gets lucky his first knife strike is unlikely to drop me. I sport a fair amount of tissue to get through, and I've been cut badly before. I have plenty of blood. Chances are my magnums are going to be hurting him more than his stabs.

The alternative is to either be Bruce Lee or get stabbed without even trying to draw. I don't see either as a viable option.

Stats show that 85% of people shot by a handgun live. 65% of those stabbed by a knife live. If you bring a gun to a knife fight you're already behind the curve, and in this situation it's 100% certain that you'll test those statistics. Have to handle the knife first.
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What statistics? That's a bunch of claptrap. I've had big slices taken out of my hands due to my own stupidity with plenty of blood flowing, and only had to get a few stitches. The body is much better able to cope with slashes than it is with the trauma of a gunshot, not to mention the resulting infection from the bullet's deep lacerations. I just lost a chunk of skin trying to catch a knife and you know what? The skin is back now. Just fine. No way would a bullet wound heal like that.
 
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Most self-defense courses teach things like shifting your attacker's center of gravity.

So, in this case, I would try to control the knife hand, and start stepping backwards. As the perp leans forward and loses his balance, then I'd go from there.

But I'm not going to be so condescending as to say I will do it correctly, I know how the outcome is going to be, or that I will win the fight.

That's just what I would do, because I was trained to do that.
 
I'd probably draw. I'm in my mid 50s, bad legs and I haven't run in a decade. While I've taken martial arts that was a long time ago. There is a reason I carry a gun, physically I'm not what I once was. Fighting at close range with some one less than half my age armed with a knife is a losing proposition. I'd try to block with my off hand even if that just meant letting him cut that and hope he doesn't kill me before I get some shots into him. Its not a good option but its probably the best one I have.
 
It's really a great question. There's not a good answer, but the worst thing to do (IMHO) is to have to think about it when it happens. Think about it ahead of time -- reduces your reaction time considerably.

Having said that, I think I would head-butt the guy. Then draw... or try to take the knife. (I need to think about that some more.) No matter what I do I'm probably gonna get cut, but BG probably is not expecting me to fight back.

I'm too old and fat and inexperienced to take on somebody in a fair fight...
 
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