Drawing to a Drawn Knife

[9mmepiphany]

Assume that there will be no time, whatsoever, to think about what to do next. If you haven't practiced dropping to your back, don't try it for the first time under duress. It's a useful tactic. I recommend training and practice.

Allowing gravity to help you get out of the way is certainly the fastest, but as has been said, it is something that needs to be practiced....but it is a very viable way to separate.

It is amazing how many people can't allow themselves to drop...try it some time...the tendency is to catch your self and ease yourself to the ground.

I should add that you have to have a plan once you have created space. While you're on the ground, see if you can even reach your holstered...pocket carry won't work for this...gun. More things to thing and train for

 

[Myles]

I was the target of an attempted mugging once. The young man was making conversation at a bus stop, the subject turned to money. He started sliding a folding knife from his pocket. He was about 4 feet away.

I drew my pistol as I saw it happen. He finished opening his knife, looked down and saw the pistol aimed at his chest. One twitch and I would have emptied the magazine. He pocketed the knife and walked away.

I was lucky. So was he. If his intent had been to carve me up, I would have likely had no warning. Fortunately, he just wanted my wallet, quietly.

 

[DT Guy]

Do some FOF grappling with a knife wielding opponent, and you'll probably rethink the grounding idea.

Can it work? Sure. But the plan B is rolling around with a guy with a knife, and that's a bad idea.

You can't touch a knife, but you can touch the hand/wrist/arm holding it, and hands/wrists/arms only move in specific directions. Not fun, but certainly possible (having done it 'live') and better than going to ground, IMHO.


Larry

 

[theory]

Sure, knives slash and stab, but a good hollow point permeates the surrounding tissue with lead, delivers damage from rapid expansion of the tissues affected, and incorporates a fair amount of air and mixed bodily fluids and tissues that will either start to fester rather quickly, or may result in an embolism.

By all means, unless someone comes up behind you and puts a knife to your throat or shanks you in the back, he who has the gun will basically always have the upper hand.

 

[figment]

http://www.resist.com/updates/2010/AUG_10/USMC-KillOrGetKilled-1.pdf
Kill or get killed. Self defense with Knife fighting manual.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

By all means, unless someone comes up behind you and puts a knife to your throat or shanks you in the back, he who has the gun will basically always have the upper hand.

In other words, if you already have your gun in your hand and are able to see the attack coming and orient accordingly, the person with the gun will basically always have the upper hand? Well, this scenario isn't that at all.

I liked the Applegate reference figment provided via pdf. It has been some time since I have seen it. From page 85, I thought this was both insightful and unhelpful...

If an attack is launched at close quarters and the victim of the assault is unable to employ any of the common defenses, the only thing he can do is to try to block or parry the thrust or slash with his hands and arms. Such a reaction is instinctive and is the only one possible under the circumstances. Although inadequate....

The "common defenses" are things like using batons, guns, etc. Applegate suggests a variety of things such as throwing items at the attacker, using a chair, kicking in the knee, parrying, etc. The only problem is that all these defenses are shown as the attacker coming from the front as an attack where it is obvious that the intended victim is coming under attack. Missing is the section on being the surprised victim being caught unaware and being threatened by a guy with a knife who is already in contact with you by the time you comprehend the situation.

It is a neat reference and has good information, though most of which doesn't apply here.

 

[Mudinyeri]

Do some FOF grappling with a knife wielding opponent, and you'll probably rethink the grounding idea.

Can it work? Sure. But the plan B is rolling around with a guy with a knife, and that's a bad idea.

You can't touch a knife, but you can touch the hand/wrist/arm holding it, and hands/wrists/arms only move in specific directions. Not fun, but certainly possible (having done it 'live') and better than going to ground, IMHO.


Larry

That's why my suggestion was to draw your weapon as you dropped and put a couple rounds COM. I then suggested that you MIGHT drop even if you didn't have or couldn't get to a weapon, but said that you need to recognize that you may end up with a guy with a knife on top of you.

As I also said earlier, too broad a question to answer with any degree of specificity.

 

[Hunt480]

Seems like a live or die situation to me. When in this close position there will be a struggle.

 

[DT Guy]

Sure, knives slash and stab, but a good hollow point permeates the surrounding tissue with lead, delivers damage from rapid expansion of the tissues affected, and incorporates a fair amount of air and mixed bodily fluids and tissues that will either start to fester rather quickly, or may result in an embolism.

Do a bit of math, and calculate the tissue disruption caused by a .45" object passing in (essentially) a straight line through the body, and a 4" long object passing through potentially 24" of tissue (the cross-body cut, hip to shoulder and back, that some PMA teach) and you'll realize the advantage generally goes to a blade.

Stop picturing either a stab or a slash; picture either a rapid series of punctures (something like 5/second) or a slash that enters, continues moving and does not exit until the target moves out of range or dies. Go FOF with a real 'knifer' holding a Sharpie and just count the punctures and inches (maybe FEET) of tissue damage he can simulate in one closing. One knife instructor I had described it as becoming a 'Singer sewing machine', if that helps you visualize it.

People who aren't really, really afraid of a knife close-in are just not informed.


Larry

 

[DT Guy]

That's why my suggestion was to draw your weapon as you dropped and put a couple rounds COM.

Have you tried this? I suspect (depending on the skill/luck of the attacker) you'll be hard pressed to fire those two shots. And remember, the knifer might understand about lateral movements, too. Going to ground is a game ender for you, if you don't make decisive hits, while falling backwards, on a moving target, that's cutting you. And even if you shoot him dead, there's momentum behind a sharp point to deal with; people don't crumple when Newton's already at work.

An airsoft and rubber knife should make this all too clear, IMHO.

Better to try something like this:Gun V. Knife


Larry

 

[cleardiddion]

What would I do personally?
There's a few things I can do and all of them are dirty fighting. I can immediately a) headbutt him in the face b) knee to whatever is handy and debilitating c) elbow to the face. What those things allow me to do is create a shock that will stall his actions (mainly, inserting sharp pointy object into me) and allow me to make distance to do whatever else I need to do. Punching is an option but not right off the bat if someone is holding onto your coat due to the closeness of the adversary.

I'm no Bruce Lee but when you've seen what those parts of the body can do to another person it becomes a rather attractive option for close encounters. Even with distance created you're not gonna be able to make that minimum 21ft and there's a good chance you're gonna bleed but it sure beats losing.

 

[Buddy Rabbit]

Negotiate.

If that fails, start screaming like a woman, and do anything that incapacitates the hand holding the blade.

 

[autospike]

But they're RIGHT THERE! They've got a hand on your coat, maybe, and a knife in their other hand!

Would you draw to a drawn knife?

Short answer: No.
He has one hand on you and the other on a weapon. You're in a fight. You're grappling (whether you want to or not) with a guy that is most likely going to begin perforating you like a singer sewing machine the instance he sees you accessing something.

Two suggestions:
Google The Centerline Gym's Red Zone program
and
Go train with SouthNarc

 

[Mike J]

If the guy has a hand on my coat & a knife in his other hand about the best I can come up with would be to try to control the knife with one hand while I attack with everything else. I would try to move into him, kicking at his groin, gouging his eyes, going for his adams apple if opportunity presented itself. I am not a trained martial artist. Everything I know about fighting is what I learned from the guys I grew up with. That kind of situation is pretty much just root hog or die though. The bad thing is though that there is a certain amount of time you will lose processing the situation & choosing a course of action unless you are a person who trains for the kind of stuff all the time.

 

[autospike]

Yeah, just to echo what Larry said. I have gotten to play the aggressor in quite a few FOF encounters. If I can get somebody into the position laid out by the original poster (in close with grip and my weapon out) I'm a very happy "bad guy". That's not because I'm some kind of super skilled dude (I'm little and a middle aged guy). It's just that if the bad guy reaches this point, the good guy is in a very deep hole.

Also, I'm pretty comfortable on the ground - I try to grapple a couple of hours each week and I occasionally compete. But in the above scenario, falling to the ground to try to make space, even with the intent of drawing, is not going to be something I do on purpose. I believe the knifer would follow me down and maintain a dominant position and any draw I might attempt would be easily fouled. I would still have a lot of work to do and I would have far fewer options and complications because I would be on my back with somebody on top of me. And there is always the possibility that our bad guy has a buddy waiting in the wings.

 

[uspJ]

Even with distance created you're not gonna be able to make that minimum 21ft

That is a very good point. Unless the attacker has hit the ground, become imobile or has chose to retreat drawing before he attempts to close distance again will be very difficult to deploy your weapon and make accurate shots. About the best I can imagine hoping for is drawing and firing from retention as soon as you back him up enough to try to backpeddle yourself.

As far as the going to the ground goes, as 9mmEpiphany pointed out drawing from your pocket would be very difficult. I would also add that a gun carried in the 4-5 o'clock position would also be difficult/next to immpossible to draw before a determined attacker was back trying to regain the advantage, especially if your trying to keep distance or kick at the attacker while on your back. I would think AIWB would be about the best option for drawing from this kind of position.

 

[clem]

What ever goes down, I will be punching several .45 cal. holes in thier body.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by clem: What ever goes down, I will be punching several .45 cal. holes in thier body.

You are assuming that you would be able to draw and fire before he or she had cut the tendons necessary for you to do so.

 

[Cosmoline]

Are we talking about some loon here or a ninja? A truly skilled knife user can kill you before you ever see him. There would be no confrontation, just a jab to the back of the spine. That's not something that happens much IRL, thankfully. If you're talking about some punk or hobo slashing at you, then you're not likely to find all your key tendons surgically cut. I've seen the aftermath of these kinds of fights in civil bar liability cases, and while not pretty they are also usually not sufficient to stop a draw or even to stop the victim from attacking back and winning the fight. The trouble for them comes later as the severity of the slashes becomes apparent and blood doesn't stop flowing. Depending on the size of the blade, dozens of stabs may be insufficient. A little girl survived such an attack by a savage psychopath last year.

People who aren't really, really afraid of a knife close-in are just not informed.

Oh, I'm terrified of them. I'm terrified of a pilsner glass, because I've seen a man's chin and neck laid open with one. Right down through very critical tissues, within a mm of important tubes full of blood. But I think some of the knife gurus get a little carried away when they start thinking that a knife is some kind of nullifier of the firearm's advantage. Many many people have survived even horrible stabbings. The slash of a blade does damage the body is designed to cope with. Very well designed, in fact. Unless a key part of the circulatory or nervous system is hit, provided sufficient first aid and good medical treatment the chance of living is good.

Compare that to a HP bullet from a .357 Magnum or .40 S&W. The bullet does not cut like a knife, it lacerates. The tissue is torn apart, making it far more difficult for the body to heal. Plus, the wound is deep gets into central tissues not designed to cope with that kind of injury. There may well be an exit wound to double the blood loss. Even if nothing critical is hit, the wound has a much higher chance of infection.

That's why, between the two, getting stabbed is a much better dice roll than getting shot.

 

[clem]

"You are assuming that you would be able to draw and fire before he or she had cut the tendons necessary for you to do so."

If they have a knife out and are holding my coat/shirt or what ever. It ain't good so I'll still go for broke on them. Yes, I'll get cut but you can bet money that thier time left on earth is counted only in seconds.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by clem: If they have a knife out and are holding my coat/shirt or what ever. It ain't good so I'll still go for broke on them. Yes, I'll get cut but you can bet money that thier time left on earth is counted only in seconds.

Try it with a training gun and a plastic knife. See how many times out of ten tries the guy with the knife fails to drag it one time across your shooting arm before you have your gun in action.

If the muscles and tendons are slashed once, you will not be able to grasp anything with your gun hand, much less draw and pull the trigger.

Michael Janich has shown how to employ a blade that way a number of times on The Best Defense.

I think that excercise will show rather convincingly that trying to draw on a man holding a knife and standing within arms reach of you is not likely to end well. Of course, you may luck out because you are up against someone unschooled who will stab and lunge, but if the perp has been in prison or the military, likes knife-fighting literature and videos, has studied martial arts, or happens to watch The Best Defense, you are likely out of luck. Heck, a kid on my street knows how to use a knife effectively--interactive video games that instantly tell you when you are out of action. You play against other people around the globe.

That adresses the OP's question, I think. In posing it, he pointed out that it's a bad idea to draw when someone has a drawn gun on you. Interestingly, on Personal Defense TV not long ago, Mas Ayoob demonstrated an arms length encounter between a lawful armed citizen and a violent criminal actor armed with a pistol. In that sequence, the crook had not yet drawn when the persons encountered each other--he went for his gun when the two were at arms length. Using training pistols, Mas demonstrated the futility of trying to outdraw the perp after he had reached for his firearm. The perp beat the 'good guy' to the draw every time. What to do? Grab the man's gun arm and push it down and away while drawing.

Perhaps something similar would work against the man with the knife, but I do not have the hand strength in my weak hand to keep a fit person from wresting away from me.

So, what to do? If he asks for my wallet, he gets it . What happens next remains to be seen. He may use the knife, or he may not. But if I reach for a handgun, it is a certainty that he will use it.

 

[Packman]

Hmm. Lots of interesting replies to this one. I hadn't checked back in a few days.

I think some of the comments about needing to handle the knife first are pretty important. If someone gets inside your guard, you're in a real pickle. If they're outside of touching distance, then you have some options to extend the distance and give the advantage back to your ranged weapon, but once they get inside your guard, it's much harder to physically disengage. That's why I set the question up that way originally. It makes it more of a question of "what to do?" instead of questioning situational awareness or such.

Personally, I guess that, without having to have been through it, I'd try to break contact swiftly and violently, create some distance and perforate him if he elects to press the issue.

I'd also agree that anyone who isn't terrified of a blade in close is not looking at the bigger picture. Yes, knife and gunshot wounds are survivable with rapid medical attention, but I have very little interest in experiencing either. The recovery from either one is going to be horrendous.

 

[Packman]

As an afterthought, I'd also like to point out that my intent of breaking contact "swiftly and violently" is only to be enacted if I determine that compliance is not a better option. There's nothing in my wallet that isn't replaceable.

But, by the same token, I don't really want that person to have my home address either.

 

[Cosmoline]

If the muscles and tendons are slashed once, you will not be able to grasp anything with your gun hand, much less draw and pull the trigger.

If the right tendons are slashed deep enough. But hitting the surface of jean or shirt with a plastic training knife is not the same as actually getting through those tissues so completely as to prevent further arm or leg movement.

I agree that defense against the blade is critical, but a defense which assumes the handgun will be of no use until the blade is neutralized strikes me as a little nutty. Why would you give up your ace in the hole for the random vagaries of hand-to-hand combat in the hope that you'll be able to disarm some loon with a blade?

Maybe this is a difference in regional situations. Here, the knife is the tool of the drunken hobo or psychopath. It is not the favored tool for criminals. Everyone has firearms. They're practically an alternate form of currency here. To me, the LAST course of action would be to engage in hand-to-hand combat with a knife wielding foe. Both because I don't want to get cut and because he's liable to be off his meds, feeling no pain and with the crazy strength of ten. It would be like wrestling a bear.

I'd like to see defensive techniques which show how to best make space while drawing the firearm. While running backwards isn't great, I'm confident I can do it much much better than I could go Bruce Lee on some knife loon and disarm him! I've run backwards from threats before. It comes naturally! LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYenxZOkW2M

I've been surprised by my own cowardly speed when retreating from moose and bear. So maybe I need a martial art technique geared on running away and shooting the guy from a safe distance ;-) Cowardice has always seemed to me to be the least appreciated martial art form. Seriously, the instinct is keep distance from the blade. So why not work on perfecting what comes natural? I noticed in the above encounter, and in others, that I instinctively pick my feet up while going backwards. So somewhere in my brain are pre-programed means of avoiding trip hazards. I'm sure everyone has them.

In a personal scenario, let's say I"m walking. I'll have my stick. So a knifer appears with blade in hand. Best solution, to my mind, is to thrust with the stick while running backwards and simultaneously draw old painless to end the argument. Concerns would be not tripping, drawing smooth while moving, using the stick not to try anything fancy but to use major muscle groups to keep that key distance. And of course not shooting my own arm, though I should be a good enough shot by now to not do that. Anyone train that way?

 

[JohnBiltz]

I think that excercise will show rather convincingly that trying to draw on a man holding a knife and standing within arms reach of you is not likely to end well.

I don't think there is an action in this that is likely to end well unless you are very well trained in hand to hand. One you have to neutralize the knife and two you have to take a man out with your bare hands. If you have never taken a man out like that before you are not likely to be able do it here for the first time. In the Infantry there is a drill for a near ambush. Unlike all other drills where you take cover and go from there you charge the enemy and shoot your way through. Its not expected to work, its just your best chance because staying there is fatal. One thing about the force on force training, you knew he had a gun and that skews how you react. Here he probably does not. Its quite possible you could get the gun out without him ever realizing you drew either by concealing the draw or he just tunneled out. Which doesn't mean you don't get cut or stabbed just that you get the gun out.