Drawing to a Drawn Knife

[Double Naught Spy]

If you've let someone get close enough to get a hand on your coat you've done something terribly wrong already.

Apparently, you are a hermit living in an isolated location and are self sufficient. Either that or you are just as guilty of having done something terribly wrong countless times in your life. You cannot attend a movie, go shopping, attend church, attend college, or otherwise participate in a normal life without people getting close to you regularly.

You will instinctively know whether you can take somebody in a hand-to-hand fight, whether you should fight or run.

Really, what instinctive insight do we have about the aggressor's skills and capabilities?

Well, how long would you recommend pondering the issue while someone is trying to stab you? The immediate instinctive decision is the one to go with.

The scenario presented doesn't have the bad guy trying to stab you yet. There may actually be considerable time (several seconds) to ponder responses. You may go with your instinctive decision, but your instinct doesn't know if you can take the bad guy or not. Note that your instinctive decision may be very detrimental to your survival. Folks like to talk about Fight or Flight, but there is a 3rd F instinctive decision, to Freeze. I happens with considerable regularity.

So, in this case, I would try to control the knife hand, and start stepping backwards. As the perp leans forward and loses his balance, then I'd go from there.

Keep in mind that the BG doesn't always approach from the front.

 

[therewolf]

Given half a chance,(might not happen) I would try to kick out a knee.

Then, immediately back away a few steps, if possible.

Hopefully before this event occurred, I'd already be in alert mode, hand on the gun.

 

[skifast]

A kick in the nuts isn't a bad strategy either.

 

[Avenger29]

I'd probably draw. I'm in my mid 50s, bad legs and I haven't run in a decade. While I've taken martial arts that was a long time ago. There is a reason I carry a gun, physically I'm not what I once was. Fighting at close range with some one less than half my age armed with a knife is a losing proposition. I'd try to block with my off hand even if that just meant letting him cut that and hope he doesn't kill me before I get some shots into him. Its not a good option but its probably the best one I have.

Remember, you're not going hand to hand in an effort to beat him with only your bare hands, you are doing it just enough to be able to draw your gun so you can put some rounds into him.

 

[Panzercat]

Given half a chance,(might not happen) I would try to kick out a knee.

I'd like to think that'd be my response too. Mobility is everything in this encounter and the sooner you can limit theirs, the better. Occupy the knife hand by any means nessisary and take the kneecap out. Withdraw beyond melee range and deploy.

Would advise caution on actually firing on him after this is accomplished as you run the risk of being seen using excessive force, but that's your call based on the situation. As I've seen the sig floated around here, better to be judged by twelve than...

 

[KodiakBeer]

You are going to get cut or stabbed. Just accept that. Get to the gun, eliminate the threat, seek medical care.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

A kick in the nuts isn't a bad strategy either.

Well if the guy wasn't stabbing you, after your attempt, he will be, assuming it is a guy.

Given half a chance,(might not happen) I would try to kick out a knee.

Then, immediately back away a few steps, if possible.

Hopefully before this event occurred, I'd already be in alert mode, hand on the gun.

It is nice to rewrite the scenario to increase your chances of success, but that isn't how it works. Hopefully you would be in alert mode, but your weren't, hence the person holding onto your coat with a knife pointing at you.

 

[Hunt480]

Seems simple to me, just fight like hell until you have a chance to draw your gun and end it. What else could anybody do for self defense when somebody is that close. When dear life is on the line its time to take care of bussiness.

 

[Cosmoline]

Would advise caution on actually firing on him after this is accomplished as you run the risk of being seen using excessive force,

I think it would depend on whether, after the assailant has been kicked, he still constitutes an imminent threat of deadly force. I would not expect most men, absent special martial arts training, to be able to totally incapacitate a knife stabber with a kick to the knee or groin. If it does, and the guy drops the knife, obvious the threat has diminished and you can just leave. But it's more likely you would at most slow the attack a bit.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

"But they're RIGHT THERE! They've got a hand on your coat, maybe, and a knife in their other hand!"

You draw to that and you're gonna git stabbed, brother. Probably be smarter to either make distance so your gun's inherent advantages can come into play, or close the distance and focus on controlling that knife for the time being.

 

[uspJ]

You are going to get cut or stabbed. Just accept that.

Most likely very true. Try to trap the hand that grabbed you and get busy attacking to try to make them go on the defensive. The moment they break contact draw and try to escape or stop the threat if it persists once your gun is out.

 

[Erik]

"Something other than trying to draw a holstered gun would likely be my first response...there just isn't enough distance."

Yep.

 

[BENBRU]

You're getting cut... accept it. How is he holding the knife? Is it an ice pick grasp, where is he holding it? Is at his hip? Is it at your throat? Any one with any self defense martial arts training will tell you this determines your response. The question is broad, my answer is this:

Do your best to lock up that knife or get that hand to the ground. If you can lock up the arm use your free hand to reach for your gun and give him a couple rounds. If you wrestle it to the ground keep fighting him. I've met some guys who can take a shot to the groin with a little more than a whimper. I've never met someone with tough eyeballs. And whoever said "headbutt" Just remember, no one wins with a headbutt.

 

[Frozen North]

The first thing I would do is not have my pistol buried deeply in concealment. If it is in a purse (like my girlfriends), in a smart carry, in a belly band, or in an ankle holster, it may as well be in the safe. If you cant pull the thing quickly, it does you no good.

Second, I would consider giving the BG what he wants. I am no ninja black ops guy and my life is worth more than what he wants from me in many cases. I don't know how well I could draw or shoot with tendons and muscle cut badly in a struggle. You can bleed out fairly quickly with a knife wound to the internal organs like your liver or kidneys.

Sometimes living to see the sunrise is enough of a victory.

If I can get the drop on him though, he is gonna drop!

 

[uspJ]

The first thing I would do is not have my pistol buried deeply in concealment. If it is in a purse (like my girlfriends), in a smart carry, in a belly band, or in an ankle holster, it may as well be in the safe. If you cant pull the thing quickly, it does you no good.

Second, I would consider giving the BG what he wants. I am no ninja black ops guy and my life is worth more than what he wants from me in many cases. I don't know how well I could draw or shoot with tendons and muscle cut badly in a struggle. You can bleed out fairly quickly with a knife wound to the internal organs like your liver or kidneys.

Both good points. Deep concealment holsters offer no advantage if you have to act suddenly or have to fend off an attack. They only work if you have time to see the threat and then decide to act.

Sometimes it is better to give in to the demands, sad but true. Its a hard choice to take an armed threats word that he only wants your valuables and won't hurt you if you don't resist. Sometimes it is the best option, unfortunately you won't know if it was the wrong one untill it is too late.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I am no ninja black ops guy...

This brings up an interesting point. Lots of people have a very good idea on how to handle this situation and indicate it can be fairly simplistic, which is true, if you know what you are doing, are skilled, and you have correctly identified the correct solution for the particular problem. In a discussion on another forum about the Florida school board shooter who was attacked by a female board member with a purse, several folks comment on how easy it would have been for her to disarm the man, which is true.

The problem is that while there are a lot of very simple procedures that can take care of such situations, but very few people are actually trained enough to know when to use what moves to handle what problems. Even if they have had some training, most people are not practiced in what they have learned.

I have a paramedic buddy who hates to see accident scenes on TV and to see people milling around and failing to provide first aid or attention and about 99% of the things he complains about are all very simple things...if you understand the problem. For those in the know, the solutions are often simple and easy, but not always so readily apparent to the rest of us. He has been quick to point out that I like to practice shooting and he want to know why I don't practice my first aid skills.

The issue rarely is the simplicity or ease of the solution, but knowing the right solution relative to the consequences.

 

[xXxplosive]

One reason why I like to wear leather coats in cool weather.....must immediately create distance while drawing and firing. A cut to the forearm I can accept and would probably expect.

 

[Panzercat]

Last night's ep of NCIS was actually pretty relevant to this situation. All of this postulating is great and all as long as you have some clue the attack is coming.

As the episode demonstrated, that's the other half of the battle. Unsub was slitting throats left and right, taking full advantage of his initiative rolls and the 2d6 backstab bonuses (yeah, I know ). If he's that close and you don't know there's a threat, drawing won't help. Likewise, there are far too many social settings where you cannot possibly be that omni-sentient.

The biggest thing in your favor is the aggressor's intentions and behavior toward you. Assuming you get blindsided and if he's looking to grandstand, you have a chance. If he's just looking to cut you like the NCIS dude, you're going to have a rough time of it.

Anybody else see this one?

 

[xXxplosive]

Too many TV movies..................Hmmmm.

Real life is always alot different and unpredictable.....IMO.

 

[Deanimator]

Just as I would with a drawn gun, I'd try to put cover, or at least concealment between myself and my assailant and draw. After that, if he's continuing his attack, it's front sight, trigger squeeze, breathing.

 

[heeler]

XXXPLOSIVE is right, real life is always a lot different and unpredictable.
I had a very good friend who was attending a large party on an outdoor river area beach a number of years ago when some guy for an unknown reason really started talking bad to my friends wife.
When Tommy approached him and told him to stop the guy went on and [called his wife an unacceptable name].
Predictably Tommy decked the guy and the fight was on.
Somewhere in the melee the guy drew a knife and stabbed my friend four times before he felt the searing pain.
Had it not been for several other guys intervening after seeing what was going down I have no doubts the guy would have killed my friend.
As it was he almost died any way.
Run as fast as possible away from a blade if at all feasable until you can gain the initiative.

 

[DT Guy]

As mentioned, you have to focus on the knife and stop or constrain it. Otherwise it will be a dead guy trying to draw the gun.

A knife can disable someone nearly INSTANTLY, if used with skill or luck. You have to stop him slicing you long enough to draw in a way you might survive. So far I've managed three knife attacks without a scratch, all by stopping the knife as a priority before anything else.

YM, of course, MV.

Larry

 

[Demitrios]

Honestly you're just plain screwed, the only thing you can realistically do is try and minimize damage to yourself at that point, you will most likely get cut despite whatever training you've had.

That said the best option for you is to create distance and buy time, use surrounding objects (i.e. in a bar grab a stool) and put it between you two, throw objects, use whatever you can find and is within arms reach.

At that point if you have a gun, draw and use it, no warnings necessary since you stated he has the intent to kill you.

If you have a knife draw it and attempt to use it if you have but you'd best brace yourself because you're most likely going to take serious damage. Escape is the better option.

If you're unarmed either arm yourself with surrounding objects or run like hell, even if you are confident in your bare handed combat abilities.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I have a paramedic buddy who hates to see accident scenes on TV and to see people milling around and failing to provide first aid or attention and about 99% of the things he complains about are all very simple things...if you understand the problem. For those in the know, the solutions are often simple and easy, but not always so readily apparent to the rest of us. He has been quick to point out that I like to practice shooting and he want to know why I don't practice my first aid skills.

The issue rarely is the simplicity or ease of the solution, but knowing the right solution relative to the consequences.

There is a lot of truth in this.

I've fallen into that trap before or thinking that folks would only advocate a course of action if they have some basis of experience to speak from, only to discover, that it is only based on reading or gaming.

What is amazing it then they then defend the position when presented facts and reasoning why it is not correct.

The trick to learning is to keep an open mind to new ideas/techniques and not to be so invested in your own as to be blinded

 

[Mudinyeri]

You're getting cut... accept it. How is he holding the knife? Is it an ice pick grasp, where is he holding it? Is at his hip? Is it at your throat? Any one with any self defense martial arts training will tell you this determines your response. The question is broad, my answer is this:

Do your best to lock up that knife or get that hand to the ground. If you can lock up the arm use your free hand to reach for your gun and give him a couple rounds. If you wrestle it to the ground keep fighting him. I've met some guys who can take a shot to the groin with a little more than a whimper. I've never met someone with tough eyeballs. And whoever said "headbutt" Just remember, no one wins with a headbutt.

Not sure I agree with the parts in bold, or your answer (Personally, I'd stay as far away from the hand with the knife as I could. I wouldn't be trying to 'lock it up'. A wise man once told me, 'A falling knife has no handle.' The same goes for a knife in somone's hand.), but I do agree with your satement that the question (as with all of these 'what-if' questions) is too broad. I also agree that you'll need to assess the situation and do it in less than a split second.

Now, in the training I've been through, the general rule with a knife has been to create distance. You might be up against some knife-throwing champion, but the chances are slim that the knife used against you in a crime will be effective beyond arm's reach.

Create distance. You could drop to your back, draw your weapon as you're dropping and try to put a couple rounds COM - if you've practiced such a tactic and are confident with it. If you haven't practiced such a tactic, you might still drop to your back but recognize that the perp may be pulled with you as you drop, if he has a hold of your coat, or may follow you to the ground with his knife. Either way, you need to know your next move ... and it needs to be pure muscle memory. Assume that there will be no time, whatsoever, to think about what to do next. If you haven't practiced dropping to your back, don't try it for the first time under duress. It's a useful tactic. I recommend training and practice.

In the OP's initial scenario, he made a statement about the perp potentially having a hold of your coat. A heavy coat can provide some protection from slashing and even from stabbing. Don't count on it for long, though. I watched a video once of some knife defense training where the instructor took off his shirt and wrapped his lead arm with it to minimize the slashes while he attempted to close on the individual with the knife. Bad idea for the average person, IMO. Create distance, don't close the distance.