Drawing to a Drawn Knife

[Cosmoline]

One you have to neutralize the knife and two you have to take a man out with your bare hands.

That's a good point. The gym training sessions I've seen with elegant knife disarms invariably have the "attacker" stiffly jabbing in the pre-ordained way and getting disarmed. In real life the attacker will be clawing, kicking, biting, spitting, head-butting and you name it. And if you're armed he may well get ahold of your firearm and use it on you. I don't see many martial arts classes where the stand-in attacker goes truly ape, as frequently happens in real life.

 

[clem]

".... you charge the enemy and shoot your way through. Its not expected to work, its just your best chance because staying there is fatal.".

Thank you, that is my thought on this event.

As a retired Marine & LEO, that is my "trained response".


And;

Kleanbore, I didn't know that you were a LEO.

 

[JN01]

To me, the LAST course of action would be to engage in hand-to-hand combat with a knife wielding foe. Both because I don't want to get cut and because he's liable to be off his meds, feeling no pain and with the crazy strength of ten. It would be like wrestling a bear.

I'd like to see defensive techniques which show how to best make space while drawing the firearm. While running backwards isn't great, I'm confident I can do it much much better than I could go Bruce Lee on some knife loon and disarm him!

Amen to that. It would be cool to be proficient enough to confidently attempt a disarm. Unfortunately, a lot of us don't have the time, money, or ability to get the necessary training. I wouldn't have anyone willing to be a training partner to maintain those skills. I can, however, practice drawing and firing while "retreating".

If left with no other choice and having to "stand and deliver" I would of course go medieval and attempt a disarm, but I have no illusions that things would not go badly in such a case (whether I survived or not).

 

[KodiakBeer]

Methinks if you worry about fending off the knife (instead of drawing and shooting), you're just going to extend the time period where the assailant gets to keep slashing and stabbing you.
You're going to get cut. You're going to keep getting cut until you start filling his torso with lead. Grappling with him is giving him the advantage (he has a knife). Drawing and shooting takes his advantage away.

Draw, shoot, seek medical attention.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by KodiakBeer: Drawing and shooting takes his advantage away.

Of course, if you can. The whole point of the original question is whether it's a good idea to try it.

Draw, shoot, seek medical attention.

That's one strategy, yes.

The questions are, (1) if you do not draw, will you get hurt anyway; (2) if you do draw and get cut, how serious will the injuries be.

On the first question, sure, you have legal justification to shoot, but might it not be it a whole lot more likely that you will not be hurt if you comply, or is there something that differentiates this scenario from, say 80% of armed robberies in general? Obviously, if you do draw, the knife will be used.

What one should do on that score will have to depend upon how one judges the situation and the attacker's behavior at the time. It's a high-stakes gamble either way.

Within the second question are the nuances: will you be permanently disabled, and how badly; will you even survive; and will you be prevented from handling your gun in the first place, by tendon damage?

In Post #75, Cosmoline refers to the use of a stick. I have read two accounts of elderly WWII veterans who had been trained in hand-to-hand combat being attacked by more than one young punk and putting them out of commission by using canes. One was in one of Ayoob's books, and the other had to do with irregular units that had operated within Japanese held territory during WWII. Whether both are about the same incident I do not remember.

In neither case did the intended victims even have to use a gun, so that brings to mind the caution that if you are able to disable the attacker with the cane, your justification to use your firearm would cease. But the real point is, striking with a fighting cane does constitute the use of deadly force, and if you have one and know how t use it, that might well be your best strategy.

That has me thinking....Maybe I'll look into getting a cane.

One other thought. I carry IWB, and my responses so far have been based on what I know that I cannot do when drawing from my IWB holster.

If you have your firearm in a pocket holser in your jacket, you may already have your hand on your gun. Depending upon how you carry it, you may also be able to fire a concealed-hammer revolver from within the pocket. That sheds a different light on things here.

 

[KodiakBeer]

On the first question, sure, you have legal justification to shoot, but might it not be it a whole lot more likely that you will not be hurt if you comply

He has a knife. He has grabbed you (assault). You can surrender or you can fight.

If you surrender (comply), he gets not only your wallet but your gun as well, leaving you totally helpless and completely without options. You are handing him your life and hoping he won't take it.

Draw, shoot, seek medical attention.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Kodiak Beer: If you surrender (comply), he gets not only your wallet but your gun as well, leaving you totally helpless and completely without options.

I carry concealed.

Draw, shoot, seek medical attention.

If I thought I stood much of a chance of getting by with that tactic, I would consider it. With IWB carry, I do not. Perhaps with pocket carry...

Let's switch places here. You have a knife and you know how to use it. You're after money, you move to contact distance with a victim and have your knife in your hand, and you make a demand.

Scenario #1: You get the wallet. What do you do?

Scenario #2: He starts to reach for something concealed under his clothing on his belt. It is clear that he is going to try to kill you. What do you do? What chance does he have?

Scenario #2a: His hands are already in his pockets. He takes them out. What is he doing? How fast can you react? Or maybe he shoots you four times from the pocket...

Scenario #2b (provided by Cosmoline): He has a stick and knows how to use it....... Of course, you may have selected someone else as a victim.

Switching back for a moment: whether giving up the wallet will work is not clear; it depends upon the person, and you are going to have to make a judgment on the scene. It works about 80% of the time in armed robberies.

The problem, with "draw, shoot, seek medical attention" is that it relies on the presumption that you would be able to shoot, and that you would be able to seek medical attention, and that medical attention would be able to save you. That will all depend entirely upon what parts of are cut.

But, of course, we can all out draw and outshoot any "bad guy" on the planet...

 

[Cosmoline]

Why not just have your revolver in your pocket, and when you go to take your "wallet" out you draw and shoot or just shoot through the pocket if it's a jacket?

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Cosmoline: Why not just have your revolver in your pocket, and when you go to take your "wallet" out you draw and shoot or just shoot through the pocket if it's a jacket? That should work--"scenario 2a" above.

Guess what I've added to the wardrobe today!

I do remember seeing Mas Ayoob demo this approach for the close-in encounter on PDTV some time back.

Not sure about warm weather, though.

 

[Panzercat]

This is what you do:

*stolen from WEG

 

[Mudinyeri]

Have you tried this? I suspect (depending on the skill/luck of the attacker) you'll be hard pressed to fire those two shots. And remember, the knifer might understand about lateral movements, too. Going to ground is a game ender for you, if you don't make decisive hits, while falling backwards, on a moving target, that's cutting you. And even if you shoot him dead, there's momentum behind a sharp point to deal with; people don't crumple when Newton's already at work.

An airsoft and rubber knife should make this all too clear, IMHO.

Better to try something like this:Gun V. Knife


Larry

Have I tried it? Yes. I practice it on a fairly regular basis - ever since I learned it 25+ years ago. Is it the right tactic for someone who hasn't learned and practiced it? Probably not.

With that said, the page you linked says exactly the same thing I did ... CREATE DISTANCE.

A lateral move is an OK alternative, but your link talks about knife-blocking techniques. If you haven't practiced such techniques, they will most likely be just as successful (and end with a similar result) as dropping on your back.

Similarly, firing from the position outlined as a part of the "Speed Rock" in your link takes considerable practice. I distinctly remember the first training session I had when attempting to fire from a similar position. It was highly unsuccessful.

The long and the short of an engagement with a knife-wielder is this - unless you have thought through and repeatedly practiced a variety of techniques, you're unlikely to escape unscathed. With that said, the single constant is CREATE DISTANCE. Learn and live techniques that help you do this if you want to survive an engagement with someone wielding a knife.

 

[JohnBiltz]

The thing about a stick is its already in your hand, you don't have to draw it, that is a huge advantage. Your instinctive reaction would probably be a fairly effective block to a knife strike and a follow up would be easy and effective. You also have the advantage of range over a knife. If the conversation was you have a gun in your hand and a guy with a knife... Lets say this thread would not be 4 pages long.

 

[Rexster]

As presented in the original post, merely drawing at that point is probably going to result in being cut BADLY. Cut badly while going for the weapon, cut more while trying to shoot, and cut more while the bad guy bleeds out, or otherwise copes with being shot, IF the defender is lucky enough to even hit the bad guy.

No, using both hands to create the space/opening to then deploy a weapon, is generally the better idea. I have attended some training that addresses this; not enough, but some. At the very least, create a distraction; don't merely go for a weapon.

I cannot cite the sources, but recall more than one source, other than my training, that indicates it is generally better to use BOTH hands to deal with the bad guy's blade.

 

[KodiakBeer]

If I thought I stood much of a chance of getting by with that tactic, I would consider it. With IWB carry, I do not. Perhaps with pocket carry...

You are presuming that he won't pat you for the wallet, pocket cash, jewelery, guns, whatever. He already has his hands on you, so you might as well presume he'll have his hand on the gun momentarily.

But, of course, we can all out draw and outshoot any "bad guy" on the planet...

Nope, you're going to get cut or stabbed. That's a given.

I view this in the same manner that women are told to never "get in the car" but to resist at that point. Once they get in the car, they're trapped and at his mercy.

Once you surrender to an armed man, you are also trapped and at his mercy.

If your method of carry is such that you can't actually use your gun when your life is threatened, maybe it's time to reconsider your method of carry?

 

[unwise11]

Grab the arm that has the knife, a palm strike to the nose..
If you have enough strength you can literally push the nose bone into the face, they will be out, the pain would be extreme and by the time I made that move my Spyderco would most likely be in the BG's chest.

 

[JohnBiltz]

I'm not drawing a knife if I have a gun and can draw that instead.

 

[KodiakBeer]

by the time I made that move my Spyderco would most likely be in the BG's chest.

And in another 15 minutes he might be feeling faint from blood loss.

 

[ironhead7544]

Anyone can get ambushed. If some has a knife out and has grabbed you, its a safe assumption hes trying to kill you. You want to move so that your weapon is away as far as possible from him. That could be left or right. Thats why I use an appendix IWB, can be drawn with either hand. You are going to get cut. Its natural to try and avoid getting a hand cut but a slash or stab on the body is much worse. At real close quarters you must stop the blade. That means you have to grab the blade itself. The perp will have to pull it back and that may give you a change to get the distance to draw. One thing I havent seen here is where to shoot if you do draw. I will shoot for the mass of nerves located between the crotch and belly button. A good hit there will put him on the ground. If you miss the nerve center you will hit one of the hips and a 9mm and larger will break him down. Of course multiple hits are better. You need to stop his mobility and get out of his reach. This will also work for a running attack coming at you. Its either that or an eye socket which is a tough shot under stress.

This is just my opinion. If he is good with the knife you may not survive.

 

[Mudinyeri]

Good point about shot placement, ironhead. In addition to damaging nerves and potentially breaking the pelvis or a hip, there are some major arteries (Femoral) in that general area. I don't want to wait for him to bleed out to get away from him, so the nerve damage and broken supporting bone structure help you create distance. Hitting an artery is just a "bonus." The other advantage to this location is that there is no rib cage to deflect the bullets.

 

[RandomPerson]

If you've let someone get close enough to get a hand on your coat you've done something terribly wrong already.

Because you'd never be caught dead standing in line at the supermarket, or post office, or any one of a million other times someone could get right next to you right?

Even worse than armchair quarterbacking, is when it doesn't involve rational thought.

 

[Quaamik]

Your options are:

Submit: You rely on your attackers "good nature" to not harm you.

You fight back bare handed against the knife: You are likely to lose, and badly even if you are a martial arts expert. Talk to a real martial arts expert who is not trying to sell you on taking thier class: they will admit that unarmed against a knife - they are going to take damage if the knife guy knows anything.

You draw your gun: You are likely to be seriously hurt by the knife even if you shoot him. The distance (less than arms reach) is too close. You do have an advantage (action vs reaction). The teaching bit about a knife weilding person being able to strike from 7 yards before you can draw and fire is based on him initiating the attack and considers the delay in reaction you will have. That action/reaction delay is reversed if you initiate the attack while he is holding you at knifepoint.

You attack with bare hands and draw: Your best chance. You may take damage, but if you can imobilize / prevent a serious strike from the knife for 1 second you have a very good chance to get a shot off. 2 - 3 seconds and you are very likely to be able to get a shot into the knife wielders center mass.

Something to remember: Assuming you are carrying concealed, your attacker probably doesn't know you are armed. Striking at him (knife arm, shin, "jewels", foot, face) may be expected but will be momentarily distracting as he has to deal with it. drawing you gun at the same time may not gget his immediate attention - but the sound of that fisrt shot sure will (even if it misses). Has anyone here fired a handgun without ear protection? It's LOUD. Will it stop someone? no, but if they are not expecting it, it's going to distract them for a heartbeat or so.

 

[Losov]

Well, how long would you recommend pondering the issue while someone is trying to stab you? The immediate instinctive decision is the one to go with. 20% faster beats 90% righter.

No argument there. It's the idea that you can "instinctively know" whether you can take someone that I take issue with. Fact is, you don't. Doesn't mean you don't give it a shot, though.