Expired CHL - Vehicle searched

Status
Not open for further replies.

Adrianos

Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2006
Messages
13
The "DUI checkpoint" thread has prompted me to share a recent experience.

Let me preface this by saying that I am not a kid, by any stretch, and I do not have a chip on my shoulder regarding LEO. I am a middle-aged, clean cut professional and I make it a point to treat police officers with respect.

A few weeks ago, I was stopped for speeding in Houston by a Harris county constable. The officer alleges I was going 14 MPH over the posted limit. After I pulled over to the side of the freeway, taking extra care to get far enough off the road to make the stop as safe as possible, I put my car in park, rolled the window down, turned on the interior light, and placed both hands on the steering wheel. I then waited for the officer to approach my vehicle.

It was a few minutes after 11pm and it was one of the coldest nights of the year. When the officer approached my window, his demeanor did not hide the fact that he was very angry. I was hoping to get some brownie points for the way I had handled myself in preparation for his approach. No such luck. The officer begins barking at me like a drill sergeant. "Do you have ANY idea how fast you were going?" "No, sir," I repsond. He then proceeds to ask me a series of personal questions:

Where are you going?
Where are you coming from?
Have you been drinking? (I had not)

Foolishly, I politely answered them all. After the questions, he asked me for my DL and proof of insurance. As I open my wallet to get my DL, the officer is looking over my shoulder and shining his light on me. As I'm pulling out my DL, he notices my CHL. "What is that!?," he demanded. I told him it was an expired CHL and that I was not in possession of a gun. The officer instructs me to give him my CHL, tells me to sit tight, and walks back to his patrol car.

About ten minutes later, two more patrol cars arrive at the scene. The original officer approaches my window again and says, "I'm going to ask you one time ONLY. Do you have a firearm in this vehicle? Do not lie to me. If you have gun in this car and produce it now, you are going to have a problem, but if you lie to me and I have to find it on my own, you are going to have a much bigger problem." I politely explained to him that I was not carrying a gun and had not carried a gun since my CHL expired. He then asked permission to search my vehicle. I declined. He then walked back to his car to confer with the other back-up officers who were standing around.

22 minutes later, he and the back-up officers approached my vehicle and instructed me to get out of the car. I stepped out of the vehicle, he frisked me and handcuffed me. They instructed me to sit down on the side of the freeway and told me that they were going to search the car. To be clear, I said to the officers, "Just so there's no miscommunication, I did not give you permission to search my vehicle." The officer responds, "We don't need your permission. An expired CHL is probable cause."

So for the next 10 minutes, 3 officers conducted one of the most thorough vehicle searches that I can imagine, while I nearly froze to death on the side of a busy freeway with traffic whizzing by at 70 MPH less than 15ft from me. They removed all contents from my vehicle and placed it on the side of the freeway. They even pulled the carpet up from the footwell and looked under the carpet.

After the officers had completed their search, the original officer went to his car and wrote the speeding ticket. He came back, removed the cuffs, gave me the ticket and my licenses back, and told me to have a good evening.
 
What state? Names are useless, there is no punitive process that would actually affect the officers for breaking the law. Some like to pretend there is, but they are usually the people who have never had the police break into their house.
 
I hope

the LEO's here that read this can better understand why sometimes we have a problem with "LEO's". It's natural anyone never experiencing this would wonder what our problem is, and equally natural that anyone who has experienced would know exactly what the problem is. Not all LEO's are anything like this, but those that are often have no accountability...imagine the potential in a world where you really have no say.
ie; no arms.

st
 
To all of you who whine about "cop bashing" in these forums, if there weren't so damn many cops that acted like these then maybe we wouldn't feel the need to "bash" them.



...there is no punitive process that would actually affect the officers for breaking the law.
They violated Federal law:

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 13 > § 242

§ 242. Deprivation of rights under color of law


Whoever, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, willfully subjects any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or to different punishments, pains, or penalties, on account of such person being an alien, or by reason of his color, or race, than are prescribed for the punishment of citizens, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and if bodily injury results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.




Not that the Constitution really means anything anymore, nor do legal restraints on state/police action, but there is on a piece of paper somewhere in Washington DC a federal statute that they violated.
 
You REALLY need to follow up on this. What they did was illegal, no gray area there.
 
This was in TX?

Even if you weren't carrying, transport of unloaded cased guns is legal almost everywhere. I am not familiar with "car carry" in TX, but in CO our vehicles are considered an extension of our home (with some Denver confusion).
 
I'm an LEO, and I agree that this was a grievous misuse of police authority. Many times when we ask for a drivers license, we also ask questions such as "where are you going". This is part of a divided attention test, an impaired driver has trouble "multitasking" and can't find his license and answer your questions at the same time. The fact that you had an expired CHL is not PC for anything. Just curious though, if it's expired why do you carry it? When you declined a vehicle search, and no PC existed, the officer should have sent you on your way. Once he removed you from your vehicle and handcuffed you, you were "arrested". I guess that his department requires a "vehicle inventory" of all arrested prior to towing the vehicle. But then he "un-arrested" you and let you proceed. Personally I would obtain a lawyer, subpoena any dash cam footage, radio transmissions, and the personnel records of the officers involved. Let us know what happens.
 
I would file a complaint with the department - maybe verbal at first and then written. Depending on the response I'd write a letter to the elected officials. Then maybe I'd write a few letters to the media.

And I'm usually on the side of the police. My position is that they had better things to do with their time than conduct a search.

John
 
To all of you who whine about "cop bashing" in these forums, if there weren't so damn many cops that acted like these then maybe we wouldn't feel the need to "bash" them.
No no, see you have to remember that these are all isolated incidents. These don't reflect the LEO community as a whole. No matter how many of them happen to pop up these days. :rolleyes:
 
cane said:
I'm an LEO, and I agree that this was a grievous misuse of police authority. Many times when we ask for a drivers license, we also ask questions such as "where are you going". This is part of a divided attention test, an impaired driver has trouble "multitasking" and can't find his license and answer your questions at the same time.

Those that said the 19 year old was being a punk and the roadblock officer was just "making conversation" should take note of this.

A cop on duty is NOT making conversation when you are being stopped. They are fishing for any tiny hint of a reason to take the stop to the next level.

My sister is a public defender in CA and she says 99.9% of her "clients" wouldn't be in the trouble they are in if they had just shut their mouth and exercised their right to remain silent. But, they always fall for the "if you just help me out, I'll help you out" line of BS from the cops.
 
Hire an attorney and sue the city. The reasons some cops act like a**holes is because (1) they ARE a**holes, and (2) they know most people won't have the gonads to do anything about it.

The best way to stop cops from breaking the law is to put them on trial in both the courtroom and the court of public opinion.
 
Good thing it wasn't an expired library card,then you would have gotten the "Full Monty" treatment.

[QUOTE = El Tejon]Have you inquired regarding civil action against the department and city?[/QUOTE]

When one of our esteemed attorney's provides free legal advice, I'd follow it.
(HINT: you need to find an attorney)
 
Adrianos

In what state are you located?

Is it unlawful to have a gun in your car there?

HAve you filed a written complaint?
 
mzmtg

A cop on duty is NOT making conversation when you are being stopped.

I keep telling people this. They accuse me of being anti-LEO, even though I was an LEO for 12 years. I told people this even when I was an LEO.

:banghead: <----- It's like doing this.
 
I live in Houston and have had experiences with the Harris County Constables. None good. The chief constable in each precinct is an elected official. I didn't say qualified. In most cases, they are political hacks who get the job as a favor and abuse the position. Do a search and more often than not you will find them getting in trouble of one kind or another. They and their troops operate in designated parts of town, and I am not quite clear on where their jurisdiction begins and ends. They are paid to patrol neighborhoods and places where the city and county cannot effectively, or would rather not patrol.

I have heard on several occasions where LEO from the city or county booted from their departments, or over-zealous, or downright shouldn't be wearing the badge go into the constable ranks to maintain their careers.

I know of one constable that I like and respect as a friend. He was a CHL instructor at one time and knows the law cold. I rode with him once and know he treats everyone with courtesy and respect, unless they are acting stupid. He's the exception to the Harris County Constable rule.

You did everything according to CHL training and just plain common sense. I don't see how an expired CHL is grounds for PC either, and I suggest you contact an attorney about a violation of your Constitutional rights. I could recommend one in particular who came recommended to me if I was ever involved in a self-defense shooting.

**Just as an aside, I would probably take the expired CHL out of my wallet until such a time that you renew it. Why give any LEO any reason to cause you more problems than you need.
 
Last edited:
Uh... Stupid question here... You wouldn't be one of them there uppity minority types, would you? They're really big on DWB stops in my neck of the woods...

T'aint libel when it is true.
T'aint bashing when it is true.
 
Texas Congressional Session.

Passed a clarification of the definition of "travelling" to be anytime you are in your car and driving. This replaced the discretionary and capricious definitions of "travelling" as made up on the spot or dictated by various LEO/county govs. You were travelling. You have a right, in Texas, to have a loaded handgun or firearm in the car without a CHL.
Harris County Prosecutor has vowed to arrest and prosecute armed Texans ANYWAY and let them use the law as a defense in court.
That's called "good government". The police who stopped, arrested, and detained you are called "effective policing." We are supposed to celebrate both of those.

Everything I know about the police I learned from the police.
 
The Harris County DA has "informed" LEO's in the area that his office will prosecute anyone found with a gun in their car and no CHL under the UCW statute. He feels that he can prove in these cases that people were actually not traveling. Or something.

That might be why the LEO said to you what he said.

Up in my neck of the woods (Collin County) all of my LEO experiences have been pleasant so far.
 
NH case law

In NH this would not be legal unless the officer can state and reasonable convince a justice what caused him to fear for his safety.
 
Adrianos, you need to get yourself a lawyer over this one. This is a civil rights violation and the PD can be sued for damages. A lawyer may even take this one pro bono.
 
A few of you have asked what city/state this occurred in. I indicated that it was Houston (Harris county) in the original post.

Many have asked if I have considered legal action. Not seriously. I hired an attorney to help me with the speeding ticket that I received and told him about the events that transpired during the stop. He didn't think much about it at all. He made a comment similar to this: "Doesn't surprise me. The Harris county D.A. does some pretty crazy stuff. He lets these cops get away with murder. Wouldn't surprise me if he authorized the search."

This particular attorney didn't act like I had much of a case at all. However, I didn't specifically state that I wanted to pursue legal action or give him any indication that I was serious about pushing this issue. It was just casual conversation as we were discussing the speeding ticket.

Someone asked about my race. I am white. The officer is black.
 
If the cost/benefit of civil litigation is in the negative on a case like this, then pressure must be applied somewere else, either administratively or politically.

Have you thought about writing GOA or NRA? Something is rotten in Houston, the 4th largest city in the USA, and it needs to stop.

The antis already have a lock on NYC, L.A. and Chicago (1,2 and 3). We need to take Texas back.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top