FBI order for 2,963 Glock 23's.

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Good for the FBI. The rest of the DOJ, as it turns out, too; but those will be other similar reading bids that evolve into contracts.
 
Regarding 1998 Testing.

I would like to see the standards.

I can't comment without reading, but i assume some of the "tests" were arbitrary and more representitve of a tortue test then what should be the SOP care for a primary weapon.

I admit it, the glock can withstand torture, abuse, misuse, and down right wreckless ownership while still managing to function.

As soon as i decide to carry a weapon that i plan to torture, abuse, misuse and be wreckless with..ill run right out and purchase one.

Until then, ill still prefer a weapon with a trigger i actually like, and ill actually learn the appropriate and safe manual of arms for operating it. I will EVEN clean it per the manufactures sop guidelines..and (well wouldnt you know it????) it will actually function as good as any other...(NOVEL IDEA I KNOW.....that tha'rs some crazy talk huh!!!).

LOL. *wink*
 
A cop in my area just got fired for shooting himself with his glock then making up a story that a black guy shot him.
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blame-it-on-some-puerto-rican-guy.jpg
 
Allentown said:
Ok i am calling BS. The first trigger pull on a sig is a hard DA trigger pull that is ABOUT 100X harder to accidentially discharge than a glock is.

If he was referring to accidental discharges on a sa pull, that would mean either they cocked the weapon (not accidental..just stupid), or fired the weapon in SA mode after racking the slide (again, not accidental, just stupid), or fired the weapon in SA mode after realoading when shooting multiple mags (not accicental just stupid).

let me finish by saying ALL "accidental discharges" are not "accidents" they are user error and the result of stupidity.

If the FBI agents are so poorly trained/unfamiliar with their manaul of arms that they have THIS much trouble with accidental discharges....GOD HELP US ALL.
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In actually there are many AD/NDs by police using SA/DA simi-autos.

Some are because the cops forgot the piece was cocked and no safety after firing a shot or two, then trying to holster the cocked weapon. Others, with the more difficult DA to SA transition, accidently fire the piece when they thought it was on DA.

The fact you have to decock the piece before re-holstering makes the DA/SA weapons a bit more likely to discharge if the shooter is confused or overexcited.


If the FBI agents are so poorly trained/unfamiliar with their manaul of arms that they have THIS much trouble with accidental discharges....GOD HELP US ALL.
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And that applies to ANY weapon they are issued, Glock, Sig, Smith, etc.... and why I do not feel the Glock is any more prone to AD/ND than any others. And I can say with well over 10 years of IDPA, well over 40 trophies with some state ones as well as steel challege, all with a Glock 17, and never a AD/ND.

The Glock is as safe as any,as long as you are trined well at safe gunhandling.

Deaf
 
In no way a condemnation of Glock, but I don't put much stock in what a group of lawyers with badges decided upon.

Guy comes at you with a knife. Would you also rather have a 20 dollar knife or a 320 dollar glock?
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One of my guns. Not what someone else decided I should use.
 
And that applies to ANY weapon they are issued, Glock, Sig, Smith, etc.... and why I do not feel the Glock is any more prone to AD/ND than any others.
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Agreed. The odds of any firearm suffering an AD/ND are astronomical. The problem lies with the operator.
 
I have had and been around handguns for 50 years. I have NEVER seen one accidentally discharge. You HAVE to pull the trigger.
 
Regarding problem with Lawyers

See Kentucky fen-phen case where three attorneys took 120million of a 200 million dollar settlement and pocketed 2/3rds of the settlement while their specified contract was for the traditional 1/3rd of the settlement.

They did tried to inform the clients that their settlements would be revoked and they would "loose everything they had" if they inquired further into the nature of the settlement. Following that, they lied and told a district judge that some of the funds were held back in case their were further plantifs..another lie as the drug company said that was a specific amount for the specified number of plantifs and none was to be held back.

While the original plantifs were dead, dying, going bankrupt and helpless, the 3 attorneys were buying race horses, private jets, yacts and the like., even though they had literally stolen over 60million dollars from their clients then falsified paper work, bullied the clients and lied in court.


I realize lawyers don't make laws but they do set precident and argue ridiculous things in court.

Examples are "Malice of intent" on weapon that is cocked prior to a shooting.

Oh and what about those "cop killer" bullets because they are hollowpoints?

Lets talk about driving..we now have a law against "demonstration of acceleration".. meaning you get a ticket not for speeding, not for breaking any laws..but just for accelerating faster than what the officer thought you ought to have.

Divorce law? I don't know how many guys i have talked to who pay WAY more than the state standard of child support because either their lawyer was sub-par or their wives lawyers were just plain crooked..

So to answer your original question.

Do i have a problem with lawyers...

Yes..i have a BIG freaking problem with them.

Have a NICE day!
 
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EddieNFL said:
In no way a condemnation of Glock, but I don't put much stock in what a group of lawyers with badges decided upon.
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Eddie,

I've shot with some of those 'lawyers' with badges. They shoot at our local IDPA club. Expert and above they are. They use their Glock 23s and Winchester factory JHPs the FBI gives them to shoot and play with.

Some of those lawyers are very good shots and not to be messed with.

Oh, and BTW, not all of them are lawyers. You do have to have a degree from college, but not just law.

Deaf
 
Thats very true.

When i went through my whole recruitment process with the Secret Service years ago...and didnt quite make the cut.

They gave me two options. 1) Go work with Atlanta PD for a year or so and i would most definately be hired and 2) The *cough* FBI would probably hire me without further requirements (clearly meant as a slam on the FBI, but i am pretty sure they were serious).

My back ground isnt in law, its in ICU-Nursing.
 
In no way a condemnation of Glock, but I don't put much stock in what a group of lawyers with badges decided upon.
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You might be surprised at how many of those "lawyers with badges" are also prior military and prior police.
 
having survied quite a few gunfights, and now employed with a company where the probability exists to find myself in another one. I carry a glock 23 as my primary weapon. As the weapons training officer, i have a wide latitude of carry weapons i can approve for our personnel. I would not carry the glock, if there was even the slightest doubt in my mind of its effectivness. However, the Taurus OSS 24/7 45 has just finished field tests with flying colors, it even beat the FN. loaded with hornady TAP FPD +P 230gr jhp It is superior to the glock, and will be replacing it very soon. It isn't because there is anything wrong with the glock, its just the taurus is better, and better is always good in a gunfight. It's easy to banter around, this or that, if you have never seen the elephant. When rounds have passed so close to you, that your hair was singed, you have a new outlook on things.
 
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However, the Taurus OSS 24/7 45 has just finished field tests with flying colors, it even beat the FN. loaded with hornady TAP FPD +P 230gr jhp It is superior to the glock, and will be replacing it very soon. It isn't because there is anything wrong with the glock, its just the taurus is better, and better is always good in a gunfight.
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Just curious, but in what ways is the Taurus better?

Weight?
No, the Taurus weighs more than the Glock 23.

Taurus = 31.04 oz empty
Glock 23 = 21.16 oz empty
A 10 ounce difference when empty.



Size?
No, the Taurus is longer, and higher, and wider than the Glock.

Taurus = H/W/L = 5.5"/1.25"/8.25"
Glock 23 = H/W/L = 5"/1.18"/6.85"



Magazine capacity?
No, the Taurus carries less in the magazine than the Glock.

Taurus = 12+1
Glock 23 = 13+1 (optional 15+1 with G22 magazine)



Bullet effectiveness?
Well, let's see....

Hornady TAP-FPD 230g .45+P
muzzle velocity (from a 5" barrel) = 950 fps.
muzzle energy (from a 5" barrel) = 461 ft.lbs.

Hornady TAP-FPD 155g .40S&W
muzzle velocity (from a 4" barrel) = 1180 fps.
muzzle energy (from a 4" barrel) = 479 ft.lbs.


I just don't see how the Taurus is superior to the Glock 23 in actual measurable aspects.
 
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I have been under fire.

I was literally target practice for s drunk kid with w .22.

I was totally unarmed and trying to zig zag a serpentine pattern rather than run in a straight line.

Took a round to one of my finger tips, another round to my right ankle. I could hear the rounds flying by me with this weird vibratory sound.

At about 120 yards I looked back as I was about to climb a chain link fence that was around a house and a round passed by just over the top of my right ear maybe an inch from my right eye (if that)

THE oddest part, fear was not the emotion I was experiencing. It was pure rage. See I had a .22 also and I was heading to get my .22. I had decided from the time I took the first round to turn his entire house into Swiss cheese.

It's amazing how you don't feel the sting of pain when you are fully enraged and adrenaline bound.

My mom stopped me on my way back out with my rifle and made me sit down. Once I took a deep breath the pain hit and was agonizing. Them I collapsed into tears, not from just the pain buy from some kind of adrenaline raged based emotional release.

PTSD is real though. The urge to dump 100 rounds into that house NEVER went away.

I was 15 when that happened and the kid and his whole family have now died from various obesity and drug related issues.

I STILL Want to light up that house, for some unexplainable survival animal instinctive reason.

So yea, I know what it's like. Think it's scary being in s gun fight? Try it without a gun, try stayin in it after you are hit a couple times.

THEN come talk to me.
 
typical of someone that gets his "facts" out of guns & ammo instead of hands on testing, i'm not suprised you are in error. first, the Taurus has a 5.2 in bbl NOT a 4 in. repeated chronograph tests produced varying velocities, not just one. using the slower end of the test the OSS pushed the 230gr bullet at speeds of 978fps, or 982fps at the low end then the stopping power of the 45 is 488ft/lbs to 492 ft/lbs, the velocity you have for the 40 is about max, so, even the slowest 45 round exceeded the 40 in stopping power. as to expansion, to keep it simple, the 40 expanded to roughly 44-46 cal, the 45 expanded from 50-52 cal, and penetration was nearly identical, both were adaquate to reach vitals or even pass thru, however the 45 repeatedly produced a much larger wound channel. yes the 40 holds 1 more round, with the firepower of both weapons, it round isnt really a factor, when you have hammered someone 10 times or more. since both weapons are magazine fed, reload times were the same. the longer sight radius, and slight weight increase lead to faster, more accurate follow-up shots over the 40. it was on those results the Taurus OSS was deamed to be better.
 
Deaf Smith said:
Eddie,

I've shot with some of those 'lawyers' with badges. They shoot at our local IDPA club. Expert and above they are. They use their Glock 23s and Winchester factory JHPs the FBI gives them to shoot and play with.

Some of those lawyers are very good shots and not to be messed with.

Oh, and BTW, not all of them are lawyers. You do have to have a degree from college, but not just law.

Deaf
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I've shot with a number of federal agents, members of military shooting teams, at least one retired border patrol agent, a couple of SEALS, SF and Ranger types and a slew of cops from various departments. Currently, I compete with a few guys from Force Recon (one is a part time instructor at T1G). I am capable with a Glock, but shoot a 1911 better. None of that qualifies me to pick a firearm for anyone else.


...and a very close friend is my lawyer. I get my best lawyer jokes from him.
 
typical of someone that gets his "facts" out of guns & ammo instead of hands on testing, i'm not suprised you are in error. first, the Taurus has a 5.2 in bbl NOT a 4 in.
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If you think the Taurus is a better weapon than the Glock, then by all means, carry your Taurus.
But I predict that you will dump the Taurus in favor of a different handgun within 6 months.

There's no getting around the fact that the Taurus is a bigger, bulkier, and heavier handgun that offers less magazine capacity than the G23, with virtually no actual performance gain.

And if agents want a bigger and heavier gun, with even more magazine capacity, they can always opt for the G22.


PS, thanks for the correction on the Taurus barrel length.



Good luck,
Easy
 
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