Few questions about the HK91 clone known as PTR-91

[nalioth]

Also, did the buffer it come with seem to be in good condition, or did you have to switch it out for a buffertech buffer?

They are not the same thing.

There is no 'changing them out', as they are two completely different designs.

Please do not use this type of buffer in your G3/Cetme. It is known to cause receiver cracking.

(see the pic in post 37 above for what you need to look for)

To be perfectly honest, these rifles are heavy enough so that recoil isn't all that bad.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Oh, TexasRifleman, I find most recoil buffers to be a solution in search of a problem ( and some of them make their own problems [as in this case] ).

Oh I wasn't trying to argue, I wondered why specifically the G3 would be a problem and I appreciate the explanation.

I think I'll remove the one from my rifle.

 

[TexasRifleman]

With the proper milspec stock, will it be easier to use optics, due to better cheekweld?

The standard stock is in my opinion WAY too low to get a cheek weld. That's why I wound up with the Magpul and that elevated cheekpiece on their stock.

Here is mine with a standard stock. High mounts and an optic that is high. There's no way, and this was a horrible setup.
I borrowed the stock from a friend since mine came with the collapsible, but I bought the PRS instead.

 

[ocharry]

nalioth,,,,me being outside the box here,,,and reading all the posts

i think you are wasting your breath here,,,,you have given excellent advise

and if he wants to put one of these turds in there to catch the bolt carrier,,or remove the room it needs for it's rearward travel and put stress on the receiver that it was not designed for,,,,,well you have told him!!

also if these rifles are put together right,,,and i would think the PTR is,,,,,recoil is very negotiable,,,,these guns were designed to be a hand held machine gun,,,,so even though they are 7.62x51 recoil is not the same as a bolt gun or even an other simi auto

but that is just my opinion,,,and everybody knows about opinions

ocharry

 

[dodging230grainers]

I am taking nalioth's advice and skipping the aftermarket buffer.

I really don't wanna drop hundreds for a magpul stock, so hopefully when I decide to mount optics the standard stock will have to make do...

 

[nalioth]

I really don't wanna drop hundreds for a magpul stock, so hopefully when I decide to mount optics the standard stock will have to make do...

Cheek rests are a much less expensive option (some are even designed to drop-in (on) the HK buttstock).

Again, "mounting optics" on these leads to a wide range of choice.

 

[dodging230grainers]

hmm..would an ACOG be feasible? Perhaps the TA-33 model calibrated for .308? Anyone got an ACOG on their HK91 or any other .308 rifle with an 18-20" tube?

 

[Onmilo]

nalioth, document the receiver cracking.
If the BufferTech buffer is causing receiver cracking, BufferTech would have discontinued the manufacture of the product, it would be too expensive to keep cranking them out and replacing rifle receivers from other manufacturers products, they have not done so.
At about $15.00 a Buffer retail, BufferTech would have to sell 60 buffers for each ruined receiver just to break even on the production and continued sale of the product.
Nobody in business for profit would continue to do so if the product realized that percentage of failure rate.

If the receiver of a rifle has cracked with one of these buffers in place I am guessing it was a cast receiver and out of specification to begin with.

I have had my Buffer Tech buffer installed in the wood stock since I have owned the firearm and I am guessing at least 4000 rounds, that is four full cases of military surplus full power 7.62X51 rifle cartridges have gone through my rifle with not even a hit of excess wear on the rifle and the buffer shows no sights of falling apart either.

Matter of fact, here is a picture, that I took just today, of the buffer installed in my German wood stock,

You can see the buildup of case material and garbage in the top screw hole.
I don't treat this rifle with kid gloves and I don't maintain it in pristine condition, it gets shot pretty on a regular basis and I am pretty casual about a cleaning regime.
The buffer has cause zero problems.
What the buffer has done is keep the bolt from impacting against the metal buffer, less peening on the back of the bolt carrier, that's it.
I didn't need to install this buffer, I chose to do so,,,,just to see what might happen.
Suprise, suprise, nothing bad happened.
Has anything good occurred?
I can't say, other than none of the weapons I have buffers installed in have broken anything in thousands of rounds sent downrange.

Oh yeah, I also use recoil buffers in my 1911 pistols too and I have another installed on my .308 Saiga rifle and another installed in my Egyptian Maadi AKM Sporter, no problems with these either.

 

[nalioth]

The 'cracked receivers' have been reported on various HK boards.

I am gonna look like an idiot here, because I don't have the exact threads on those boards bookmarked.

Since this is a general purpose board, I'd suggest asking on a HK/Cetme specific board, and I'm sure you'd get plenty of results.

 

[dodging230grainers]

Ok, so I want to keep my PTR-91 ATF compliant,

so changing out the handguard, pistol grip, and buttstock for surplus green G3 ones is perfectly legal, right?

I've heard stuff about a "part count". Well, how exactly do I know which parts to count, and how many are there or are there not supposed to be?

thanks!

 

[nalioth]

so changing out the handguard, pistol grip, and buttstock for surplus green G3 ones is perfectly legal, right?

No.

The PTR-91 buttstock, pistol grip and forearm are US made. Changing them to the surplus green stuff will put you 3 parts on the bad side of 922r.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I've heard stuff about a "part count". Well, how exactly do I know which parts to count, and how many are there or are there not supposed to be?

If you click on the specifications for each model it tells you the part breakdown and their country of origin.

Example:

http://www.ptr91.com/product_pages/ptr91f.html

# Semi-automatic receiver (US): manufactured from .059 stamped steel, and to correct specifications, making for effortless assembly and disassembly. The recesses for the engaging of the original scope claw mount have been CNC machined with the proper angles in order to have flawless claw mount operation.
# Front sight blade (US): made of laser cut and heat treaded steel to exact specifications.
# Barrel (US): 18-inch heavy target barrel with a 1 in 12 inch twist.
# Trunion (US): fully machined and manufactured to original specifications.
# Cocking tube: new, with excellent fitting and perfect functioning.
# Furniture (US): high quality polymer and interchangeable with HK-91 and G-3, consisting of US MADE Navy style pistol grip housing, handguard and butt stock.
# Finish (US): first parkerized and then coated with a matt black scratch resistant finish, for a long lasting "new from the box" look.

There are 16 parts that count towards 922(r) in a G3.
17 if there's a flash hider or other muzzle device.

No more than 9 can be foreign made. 10 with a muzzle device.

The parts are:
(1) receiver
(2) Barrel
(3) Mounting blocks (trunions)
(4) Muzzle attachments
(5) Bolt
(6) Bolt carrier
(7) Cocking handle
(8) Trigger housing
(9) Trigger
(10) Hammer
(11) Sear
(12) Butt stock
(13) Pistol grip
(14) Forearm
(15) Magazine body
(16) Magazine Follower
(17) Magazine Floor plate

On the PTR-91, the barrel, receiver, trunion, cocking handle, pistol grip, forearm and buttstock are US made

That leaves 10 parts. If you replace the furniture with German parts for example, you will need to add some US parts somewhere else.

Note that magazines can count for 3 parts so most people do US magazines as an easy way out.

Frankly it's pretty bizarre......you WILL get a headache trying to make it all work out

 

[dodging230grainers]

Ok thanks rifleman and Nalioth...

so...if I use surplus G3 mags in a new out of box PTR91, is that technically illegal? (1 over parts count?)

Basically, I think some surplus G3 green furniture would be cool to add, so is this feasible at all? What are some cheap, easy U.S. parts that I could add to let me install the G3 furniture?

Say I only wanted to install a surplus G3 stock and handguard, what could I do feasibly to make it legal?

 

[TexasRifleman]

f I use surplus G3 mags in a new out of box PTR91, is that technically illegal? (1 over parts count?)

7 parts are US made on a new out of the box PTR91.

US made parts are:

1) Receiver
2) Barrel
3) Forearm
4) Pistol grip
5) Trunion
6) Cocking handle
7) Buttstock

Leaving you 10 foreign parts for the 17 total.

MAYBE the trigger housing is too, have to call them and ask. That would get one more.

I'm afraid it's right on the ragged edge already.

That's why most people go the US made magazine route; that's 3 parts right there.

I don't know of any ways around it.

 

[dodging230grainers]

So let me get this straight; by simply using "U.S. made" mags instead of G3 surplus mags, I can now add these things:

G3 handguard
G3 stock
G3 carrying handle


right?

 

[TexasRifleman]

Not being a lawyer of course

But yes, that's the way I've read it several times.

I think Thermold makes a magazine that I've seen people using to get the parts count swapped around.

I don't honestly know about carrying handles since they are not on the list of 17 parts to begin with. I don't know if those count against the total if they are not on the list.

 

[dodging230grainers]

I know you're not a lawyer,

but since I own a PTR91, is it now illegal to possess G3 surplus mags, or simply have them slapped into the weapon? thanks for all your help.

 

[TexasRifleman]

No, if you have an unmodified PTR91 you're good with foreign made magazines. In fact the magazine that ships in the box is foreign made.

 

[nalioth]

Carry handles are not on the list and do not count for or against 922r compliance.

 

[dodging230grainers]

Good thing to know about the carrying handle, thanks.

So I guess its U.S. made mags only for now, because I plan to swap out furniture.

BTW, not that I care that much, but how does a mag count for 3 parts?

Is a mag not one item? Oh well

 

[Onmilo]

The newest rifles are all U.S. made components.
Black helicopters will not begin circling your house if you put green German furniture on the rifle.

My rifle is an early one and several cops have played with it and shot it with the wooden German furniture in place, nobody locked me up for having wood in place of the US made plastic furniture and this is right here in restrict it all if we can Illinois.

It ain't the same as an M16 bolt carrier.

I wouldn't recommend adding a paddle type magazine release and a German made trigger group with a three position selector switch but I'm betting you will be A-OK with the furniture in place.

 

[SteveW-II]

>US made parts are:
>1) Receiver
>2) Barrel
>3) Forearm
>4) Pistol grip
>5) Trunion
>6) Cocking handle
>7) Buttstock

I would call PTR and ask them. I bet the hammer, trigger, sear and trigger frame are all valid US made 922 parts as well. That would mean you can put the German furniture on the gun without having to worry about messing with mags.

I built these G3's on PTR receivers from Portugese parts kits. Wood is CETME furniture from CTD (I like wood !). I used PTR as the source of the other 922 parts. So, in my case the US made 922 parts are :

Receiver
Hammer
Trigger
Sear
Cocking Handle
Pistol Grip
Trigger frame

The optic mount/rings combo let me keep the optic as low as possible, but just clear the iron sights. The real issue is that all the optic mounts are too short, pushing the scope back towards your eye, reducing the eye relief which makes you pull back up the stock. I used the 'swan neck' front rings to push the scope as far away as possible, but its still an issue. The 'green' gun has a Bushnell 10x40 mil dot on it and the 'all black' gun has a Burris FullField 'tactical' 2-7x35 on it. The Burris is a better all round scope for a battle rifle, IHMO.

S.

 

[dodging230grainers]

Steve, is the cheekweld decent enough to be able to use the Burris scope comfortably? I might try one of those.

 

[TexasRifleman]

The newest rifles are all U.S. made components.

I wouldn't bet on that. The last one I saw had several surplus HK parts.
The magazines are HK surplus, that's 3 imported parts right there.

Even on their website they mention that several parts are "Genuine HK".
Flash hiders for instance.

The PTR 91 is NOT a 100% US made rifle.

Their website says:

This rifle is manufactured in the United States and complies with all 922 regulations.

If it was 100% US made 922 wouldn't come into it at all.

Now, enforcement of 922(r) isn't the question, I've never heard of anyone actually enforcing it. The question was how to meet the letter of the law.

 

[dodging230grainers]

Interesting.

Not that I plan to use my PTR-91 as a main home defense weapon (I have a 12 gauge pump for that), but if ever the shotty ran dry, or there were multiple threats, and I g-d forbid had to use my PTR-91, I wouldn't want it to be confiscated by police and be found under non-compliance with 922.