Vern Humphrey
Member
My point is, why go to the rigamarole of the half moon clips, when simply by chambering them for .45 Colt you could have avoided all that?
Finally I got a 45 convertible
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Jim Watson
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As said, they were originally military weapons and common ammunition was wanted.
I doubt there were many if any 1909 New Service .45s left in US service; I think they were given to the Filipinos who were by then on our side.
I doubt there were many if any 1909 New Service .45s left in US service; I think they were given to the Filipinos who were by then on our side.
Vern Humphrey
Member
And as I said, they did not GET common ammunition. Forty-five ACP on half moon clips was a different line item from .45 ACP not on clips.
And it doesn't matter if there were M1909s still available or not -- all the M1917s were NEW manufacture..
Jim Watson
Member
The AMMO was standard and there were machines to load the clips.
I daresay clips and boxes were less expensive to procure and distribute than a whole different caliber.
I daresay clips and boxes were less expensive to procure and distribute than a whole different caliber.
Vern Humphrey
Member
There were machines to make .45 Colt cases.
But the problem is not manufacture, but distribution. It was the DISTRIBUTION problem that caused the Army to go to the .45 S&W type cartridge in the late '70s -- fear that regiments armed with the S&W would be issued Colt ammunition. Now in this case, issue of UNclipped ammo was the problem, and it wouldn't be made worst by having .45 Colt instead of .45 ACP on half-moon clips.
Jim Watson
Member
I wonder if FA still had the .45 Schofield or 1909 tooling. Or what the commercial capacity for contract ammo was in WWI.
For that matter, I still wonder why the interim sidearm was .45 1909 when they had already specified a rimmed equivalent of .45 auto in 1906.
For that matter, I still wonder why the interim sidearm was .45 1909 when they had already specified a rimmed equivalent of .45 auto in 1906.
Vern Humphrey
Member
The US .45 Revolver cartridge would work in the M1909, just as the .45 S&W would work in the SAA. The fact that the New Service (the M1909) would also accept the .45 Colt didn't hurt anything.
Jim Watson
Member
Yes, that was really a bonus for Colt, no development or retooling required, just roll out the guns.
I have the perception, maybe wrong, that the Army was pretty much wedded to Colt and only dealt with Smith for sheer numbers. I wonder what their maintenance and repair situation was for substitute standard revolvers after the auto was GI.
Have you ever seen one of the supposed early Colt 1917s with "bored through cylinder?"
I haven't. Did they sweep them all up and replace the cylinders?
Vern Humphrey
Member
I have seen the manual for the M1917 -- armorers had a bit of a nightmare taking care of two such different revolvers.
I've never seen one either -- it's my understanding that they were basically .45 Colts with .45 Colt throats, but lacking the headspacing ledge for the .45 ACP.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy Again
You guys are missing the point. The simplest conversion from the 44 Hand Ejector 2nd Model was chambering it for 45 ACP. All that had to be done was make barrels from the same forgings that would be used for 44 Special barrels, except rifle them for 45 ACP, and machine new cylinders for 45 ACP that were the same basic dimensions as the 44 Special cylinders, but chamber them for 45 ACP and shave off some metal from the rear so clips could be used. Very simple engineering changes, using the 45 ACP round.
In a pinch, the S&W 1917 revolvers could be fired without clips because the cases headspaced on the case mouth.
If I recall correctly, S&W approached the Army with the idea, because they figured Colt would be up to their eyeballs making 1911s, and the govt would probably need more pistols than Colt and the others building 1911s could supply. The govt said yes, and that is the story.
You guys are missing the point. The simplest conversion from the 44 Hand Ejector 2nd Model was chambering it for 45 ACP. All that had to be done was make barrels from the same forgings that would be used for 44 Special barrels, except rifle them for 45 ACP, and machine new cylinders for 45 ACP that were the same basic dimensions as the 44 Special cylinders, but chamber them for 45 ACP and shave off some metal from the rear so clips could be used. Very simple engineering changes, using the 45 ACP round.
In a pinch, the S&W 1917 revolvers could be fired without clips because the cases headspaced on the case mouth.
If I recall correctly, S&W approached the Army with the idea, because they figured Colt would be up to their eyeballs making 1911s, and the govt would probably need more pistols than Colt and the others building 1911s could supply. The govt said yes, and that is the story.
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Vern Humphrey
Member
Actually, it's no simpler than making the Hand Ejector 2nd Model in .45 Colt -- and no need to shave the rear of the cylinders.
deadeye dick
Member
I use both cyl. in my Uberti Stallion. The magnum makes a louder bang and I like variety. Same with my reloads, always trying something new, just for giggles.
Here is a 1916 vintage.455 MKII HE with a chopped post WWII 45 ACP barrel and .45 ACP cylinder.
The cylinder is bored out to shoot 45 Colt.. I can shoot 45ACP in moon clips, 45 Auto rim, 45 Colt, and 45 Winchester Mag brass loaded to old time Colt specs with
moon clips. The Win mag brass is just extended 45 ACP.. This brass puts the bullet right at the forcing cone.. No cylinder jump like with
ACPs.
Then there's the S&W Model of 1950 in .45 ACP with a spare cylinder to fire 45 Colt.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Do you have any problems with headspace when shooting .45 Colt? As I recall, one of the reasons given NOT to convert an M1917 to .45 Colt was you would have to move the cylinder back to correct headspace, and this would require a new sideplate, etc., etc.
BobWright
Member
The .45 ACP ammunition was not issued clipped. The .45 ACP ammunition was issued in fifty round boxes with two pairs of half moon clips per box. The ammunition was later supplied with three "stab" crimps near the case mouth to prevent the bullets from "walking forward" from recoil when used in the revolver.
And, had the Colt New Service revolvers issued as M1917s were to be chambered in .45 Colt, they would have simply been the M1909 revolver. M1909 revolvers, as well as the M1895 Models, were still in use in 1918.
Bob Wright
BobWright
Member
As to .45 ACP cylinders for Rugers, I have two .45 Colt Blackhawks with auxiliary cylinders. One of these cylinders fits two or more of my Ruger .45s. I have shot many rounds of .45 Colt, and now many of those cases are suffering splits at the case mouth. So.............I cut the split case back to .45 ACP length, load with ACP data, and shoot these in my ACP cylinder.
It's something to do!
Bob Wright
It's something to do!
Bob Wright
Project355
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Woth the WWI revolvers....one must remember that speed was of the essence. A war was on, and 1911s were not plentiful.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy Bob
When I bought this S&W Model 1917 a few years ago it came with one box of 45 ACP ammo. The rounds are on half moon clips.
Here is a close up of the box. Not in very good shape any more, but clearly marked for Double Action Revolver Cal 45 Model of 1917. Made not far from where I live by the U.S. Cartridge Company in Lowell Mass. Not shown in these photos, but the box is stamped November 7, 1918. There are 7 half moon clips inside with 3 rounds attached to each clip. There should be 8 clips, but one is missing.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy Again
Not a Colt Model 1917, this New Service shipped in 1906. It is chambered for 45 Colt. This thing is huge, it is the biggest revolver I own. Notice how it dwarfs the S&W Model 1917.
Not a Colt Model 1917, this New Service shipped in 1906. It is chambered for 45 Colt. This thing is huge, it is the biggest revolver I own. Notice how it dwarfs the S&W Model 1917.
I installed a longer firing pin in the hammer. I still get a light strike occasionally.
I also have a “shim” similar to a moon clip that holds the rounds in a position where the firing pin reaches the primer. It is kind of a cobble job, but it works.
I mainly shoot the 45 win mag/45 Colt rounds in moon clips, but it’s handy to be able to shoot the others in a pinch.
Vern Humphrey
Member
That's interesting. If I ever come up with an M1917, I may try it.
OP
OP
Cump
Member
I have enjoyed all the posts.
I might do this with some 45 schofield range pickup brass I have, which is actually trimmed (somewhat roughly) from 45 colt.
I might do this with some 45 schofield range pickup brass I have, which is actually trimmed (somewhat roughly) from 45 colt.
BobWright
Member
Driftwood,
Would you mind telling me the headstamps on those cartridges? My guess is that they are commercial ammunition?
Again, I'm not aware of any Government Issue in clips.
Bob Wright
Would you mind telling me the headstamps on those cartridges? My guess is that they are commercial ammunition?
Again, I'm not aware of any Government Issue in clips.
Bob Wright
Sneakshot92
Member
Basically the 45 Cowboy Special. Nice!!!!
Vern Humphrey
Member
The Army issued .45 ACP in half moon clips in WWI, specifically for troops who had the M1917. That was part of my reason for saying we should have gone with .45 Colt for the revolvers -- the ammo in half moon clips was a different line item, and a different cartridge would have posed no additional problems.
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