Vern Humphrey
Member
My point is, why go to the rigamarole of the half moon clips, when simply by chambering them for .45 Colt you could have avoided all that?
And as I said, they did not GET common ammunition. Forty-five ACP on half moon clips was a different line item from .45 ACP not on clips.As said, they were originally military weapons and common ammunition was wanted.
I doubt there were many if any 1909 New Service .45s left in US service; I think they were given to the Filipinos who were by then on our side.
There were machines to make .45 Colt cases.The AMMO was standard and there were machines to load the clips.
I daresay clips and boxes were less expensive to procure and distribute than a whole different caliber.
The US .45 Revolver cartridge would work in the M1909, just as the .45 S&W would work in the SAA. The fact that the New Service (the M1909) would also accept the .45 Colt didn't hurt anything.I wonder if FA still had the .45 Schofield or 1909 tooling. Or what the commercial capacity for contract ammo was in WWI.
For that matter, I still wonder why the interim sidearm was .45 1909 when they had already specified a rimmed equivalent of .45 auto in 1906.
The fact that the New Service (the M1909) would also accept the .45 Colt didn't hurt anything.
I have seen the manual for the M1917 -- armorers had a bit of a nightmare taking care of two such different revolvers.Yes, that was really a bonus for Colt, no development or retooling required, just roll out the guns.
I have the perception, maybe wrong, that the Army was pretty much wedded to Colt and only dealt with Smith for sheer numbers. I wonder what their maintenance and repair situation was for substitute standard revolvers after the auto was GI.
I've never seen one either -- it's my understanding that they were basically .45 Colts with .45 Colt throats, but lacking the headspacing ledge for the .45 ACP.Have you ever seen one of the supposed early Colt 1917s with "bored through cylinder?"
I haven't. Did they sweep them all up and replace the cylinders?
Actually, it's no simpler than making the Hand Ejector 2nd Model in .45 Colt -- and no need to shave the rear of the cylinders.Howdy Again
You guys are missing the point. The simplest conversion from the 44 Hand Ejector 2nd Model was chambering it for 45 ACP. All that had to be done was make barrels from the same forgings that would be used for 44 Special barrels, except rifle them for 45 ACP, and machine new cylinders for 45 ACP that were the same basic dimensions as the 44 Special cylinders, but chamber them for 45 ACP and shave off some metal from the rear so clips could be used. Very simple engineering changes, using the 45 ACP round.
In a pinch, the S&W 1917 revolvers could be fired without clips because the cases headspaced on the case mouth.
If I recall correctly, S&W approached the Army with the idea, because they figured Colt would be up to their eyeballs making 1911s, and the govt would probably need more pistols than Colt and the others building 1911s could supply. The govt said yes, and that is the story.
Do you have any problems with headspace when shooting .45 Colt? As I recall, one of the reasons given NOT to convert an M1917 to .45 Colt was you would have to move the cylinder back to correct headspace, and this would require a new sideplate, etc., etc.Here is a 1916 vintage.455 MKII HE with a chopped post WWII 45 ACP barrel and .45 ACP cylinder.
The cylinder is bored out to shoot 45 Colt.. I can shoot 45ACP in moon clips, 45 Auto rim, 45 Colt, and 45 Winchester Mag brass loaded to old time Colt specs with
moon clips.
The .45 ACP ammunition was not issued clipped. The .45 ACP ammunition was issued in fifty round boxes with two pairs of half moon clips per box. The ammunition was later supplied with three "stab" crimps near the case mouth to prevent the bullets from "walking forward" from recoil when used in the revolver.Sometimes I feel like Alfonso the Wise, "Had I been present at the Creation, I would have given a few hints for the better ordering of things."
One hint would have been to produce the M1917 revolvers in .45 Colt. They had to issue two kinds of pistol ammo, anyway (clipped for revolvers, unclipped for M1911s) so having two cartridges would have caused no added problems.
The .45 ACP ammunition was not issued clipped. The .45 ACP ammunition was issued in fifty round boxes with two pairs of half moon clips per box. The ammunition was later supplied with three "stab" crimps near the case mouth to prevent the bullets from "walking forward" from recoil when used in the revolver.
Do you have any problems with headspace when shooting .45 Colt? As I recall, one of the reasons given NOT to convert an M1917 to .45 Colt was you would have to move the cylinder back to correct headspace, and this would require a new sideplate, etc., etc.
That's interesting. If I ever come up with an M1917, I may try it.I installed a longer firing pin in the hammer. I still get a light strike occasionally.
I also have a “shim” similar to a moon clip that holds the rounds in a position where the firing pin reaches the primer. It is kind of a cobble job, but it works.
I mainly shoot the 45 win mag/45 Colt rounds in moon clips, but it’s handy to be able to shoot the others in a pinch.
As to .45 ACP cylinders for Rugers, I have two .45 Colt Blackhawks with auxiliary cylinders. One of these cylinders fits two or more of my Ruger .45s. I have shot many rounds of .45 Colt, and now many of those cases are suffering splits at the case mouth. So.............I cut the split case back to .45 ACP length, load with ACP data, and shoot these in my ACP cylinder.
View attachment 934473
It's something to do!
Bob Wright
As to .45 ACP cylinders for Rugers, I have two .45 Colt Blackhawks with auxiliary cylinders. One of these cylinders fits two or more of my Ruger .45s. I have shot many rounds of .45 Colt, and now many of those cases are suffering splits at the case mouth. So.............I cut the split case back to .45 ACP length, load with ACP data, and shoot these in my ACP cylinder.
View attachment 934473
It's something to do!
Bob Wright
The Army issued .45 ACP in half moon clips in WWI, specifically for troops who had the M1917. That was part of my reason for saying we should have gone with .45 Colt for the revolvers -- the ammo in half moon clips was a different line item, and a different cartridge would have posed no additional problems.Driftwood,
Would you mind telling me the headstamps on those cartridges? My guess is that they are commercial ammunition?
Again, I'm not aware of any Government Issue in clips.
Bob Wright