First Defensive Use of Handgun

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Minute_Of_Torso

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First Defensive Use of Hangdun

I grew up on a farm in middle America and so have been carrying a handgun since I was 12-years old. Only within the past five years have I had a CCW permit. But in all those years I've never had to pull my gun from its holster because I felt an immediate threat to my life or the life of anyone else . . . I've thought about it but caution got the better of me the one other time I might have done so.

This morning I was preparing to make a trip to the airport in Seattle because my wife and daughter had a plane to catch for a visit to family. It's 4 am and my little girl and I were carrying luggage to the car. We had just put some bags in the trunk and were on the back porch when a neighbor's pit bull (and another dog which was more of just a "tag along") ran up onto our porch and started barking and snarling like only a pit bull can. My daughter and I were about 10 feet from the back door and we would have had to move closer to the pit bull in order to get through the door.

My daughter kinda froze up and then started backing AWAY from the door (away from the dog) as I was yelling at the dog to "Get outta here!" I grabbed her by the arm and lifted/drug her to the door, still yelling at the dog. The dog moved toward me as I got almost in the door. I pulled my Ruger SP101, yelled one more time and the dog backed off and went around behind my garage. I got my daughter and myself inside.

Follow up:
The first thing that I took to heart about CCW was that if I ever had to pull my handgun from its holster, I needed to be the first one to call 911. Since several of my neighbors had heard all the yelling and barking I didn't want the local PD to get a phone call about a man with a gun screaming in the night. So I called 911, told 'em I had a dog loose in the neighborhood that had threatened myself and my daughter, had tried to retreat into the house, and that I had been forced to pull my handgun thinking that our lives were in immediate danger. First, I get a lecture on how "dog in the neighborhood" and "man with a gun" are two entirely different things. I had to give a description of myself and my gun and was instructed to "put the gun away" and wait for the police. A local K9 cop showed up (with another car in the street just waiting) and he was OK about the whole thing especially after I explained to him that the only reason I called 911 was because I didn't want them to get a call about a man with a gun because the man with a gun was me trying to get my daughter safely away from a pit bull. In about five minutes we were all in the car on the way to Seattle . . . haven't heard a thing since.

The second thing is: if I had been forced to shoot that pit bull (smaller and faster than a human) jumping around snarling and barking in the dark, plus the adrenaline rush, it would have been an extremely difficult shot(s).

From those with law enforcement experience, or just experiences with CCW in their life, is there anything I should have done differently? Should I have reported it differently to 911, I mean the lady on the phone just freaked when I told her that I had been forced to pull my gun because of an immediate and real threat.

Thanks.
 
Overall from where I am standing, I'd say you pretty much did what was best. Not knowing the neighborhood and how many may or may not have seen you with gun in hand .. it was probably the diplomatic thing to do to call ... basically I reckon, feeling the need to cover your butt.

There seems little doubt the threat level was high .. and more so with your daughter right there. Even for yourself alone I'd say you were justified in preparing for defence.

Beyond that ... as ever ... we weren't there .... so only really possible to imagine and then project.

Glad no harm became you guys.
 
You did well. I probably would have shot the little :cuss: . You showed good self-control. That dog may not need shootin', but it dam sure needs a good kick in the rear (figuratively speaking).
 
911 is for emergency's, once you and your daughter were inside the house you were safe. I would simply suggest that you should have found the non-emergency number for your local law enforcement, but thats just a pet -peeve of mine. Having said that, I think you handled the situation appropriately.
 
I mean the lady on the phone just freaked when I told her that I had been forced to pull my gun because of an immediate and real threat
Click to expand...

Does the public in general have any idea that there are CCW laws?

I tried to explain the concept to my folks (not flaming liberals or anything, basically gun neutral, but they do live in MD) and they were shocked that such a thing existed.

I would think that people such as 911 dispatchers would at leat be aware of CCW, if not through training than through experience.....
 
phred:

I loathe to use 911 but . . .

I agree about the 911 being for emergencies only but you'd have to understand our local law enforcement. The only two other dealings I've had with my local PD were when 1) they served a search warrant on my house - broke down the front door - "Everybody down, everybody down, AR15's, shotguns, etc - oops! wrong address, and 2) kid across the street was shooting out my upstairs windows with a BB gun - dad would do nothing - called 911 as the kid was shooting at my downstairs windows - PD never came - cop called me on my phone and gave me a case number in case I had any further (shooting was still going on) problems. I believe in supporting my local PD (as opposed to Federal Law Enforcement) but I prefer to support my sheriff's department instead.

I called 911 for the reason I gave: I wanted to be the first one to report a man with a gun yelling at 4am in the morning. Three neighbors on both sides had already opened their doors and were looking so I wanted to make a pre-emptive strike. I can't afford to replace my front door and frame again and I figured the one time they would show up would be to investigate why I had the audacity to use my handgun in self defense . . . we're not very 2nd amendment friendly in this jurisdiction.

Now that it's many hours later and I don't have my family to worry about for a while, I probably should have called Animal Control first and let the chips fall where they may with my neighbors.
 
You did fine. 911 is dial a prayer. I call 911 quite often. It is up to the police to respond. 911 is for everything though. The only thing 911 isn't for is wake-up calls. An emergency is subjective. The pit bull endangerment would result in the owner being cited locally. Three cites and the dog will be taken to the pound. The court usually orders them destroyed. Man with a gun calls are HOT calls for TOs, they only know what they are trained. I must say that if anybody is shooting a BB gun at my house with me in it, deadly force will be returned. Kentucky counts BB and air guns as deadly weapons. I have seen people killed with a single shot BB gun.
 
Any number other than 911 is for non critical calls. A viscious dog is critical even if you and yours have made it to safety. There are others at risk, use 911! Police need to respond ASAP! That 911 operator was out of line. Sure, your use of a handgun (fired or not), was important information that needed to be convayed, but this persons responsibility was to get officers to a site where a dog attach was possible at any moment, not to lecture you. Time was wasted!
 
Advice from a Dog Handler

First of all...Very happy and relieved that you and your little one weren't
hurt. I think you handled it admirably.

Although I'm a die-hard dog lover, there's not much that's more frightening
or potentially dangerous than a vicious dog that has the strength and speed to press an attack, and those should be dealt with accordingly.
A dog attack can't be taken lightly. Most "attacks" are usually not true attacks in that the dog bites and releases. A true attack is devastating,
and potentially lethal or crippling. You can never bet which it will be until
the action is in progress...and then it's too late to execute a plan. It's either over with the first bite, or it's just beginning.

Advice for facing a fast-moving dog with a gun...Dogs that haven't been
trained to recognize the "weapon in hand" body language of a human being have a tendency to bite the closest object to them as they move in.
Crouching and extending your gun-in-hand toward the dog would give him something to home in on...and make your shot more likely to hit its mark.
As the dog clamps down on the gun's muzzle, fire. The shot will have not
only the bullet's energy behind it, but the expanding gases in the dog's mouth and throat as well, making it much more likely that the dog will
be killed outright, or at least, far less able to press his attack.

The expanding gases behind the bullet can't be discounted or underestimated in the "stopping power" of the shot. Tissues are torn and burned...in the case of the mouth shot, lungs likely stretch beyond elastic
limits and collapsed...there's even the chance of the skull being fractured.

A simple walking stick is very good defense against an untrained dog.
It should be about 6 feet long, an inch to an inch and a quarter in diameter,
sharpened to a point on one end and seasoned or flame hardened over a
charcoal or gas grill. When the attack is iminent, hold the stick in both hands like a lance and wait. When the dog grabs the pointed end, launch
a counterattack with all your strength and keep attacking. Once you get the stick down his throat, he will either break off the attack, or at least stall long enoug for you to reach for your pistol.

First rule is: Have a Plan. Reacting to the attack after it's started throws the odds heavily in favor of the dog.
Second rule is: Be aware. Also don't discount the possibility of another
dog in the game. They're pack hunters.
Third Rule is:
Be suspicious of ANY strange dog that you encounter until he proves himself to be friendly, or at least passive. Most dogs are people oriented,
but they're also territorial, and will defend their home turf. Most owners
are mortified and shocked that their dog has bitten someone. Most of the
time a firm NO! will halt the dog's advance, and will probably keep you from
firing prematurely on somebody's beloved pet.

Luck!

Tuner
 
M_O_T, Ther was a roaming stray dog hanging around my apartment complex evenings and early motnings last year. It would approach and growl. Yelling at it had very little affect. It would snarl and slowly retreat. One night as I was getting into my car to go to work it advanced on me with more agression than normal.

I contacted Edmonds Police the next day. They sent animal control and an officer out to chat with me. There is a hospital very close by and as a result a high frequency of patrol vehicles driving through my area.
All three of us agreed that the sound of a .45 at 2am might cause some concern. :D They said they'd try to locate it, but that if it happened again to do what I deemed necessary to protect myself. Just make sure and call them and let them know what had happened afterwards.

I only saw the dog once after that. A few days later it was further down the street and luckily I never saw it again.
 
kid across the street was shooting out my upstairs windows with a BB gun - dad would do nothing - called 911 as the kid was shooting at my downstairs windows - PD never came - cop called me on my phone and gave me a case number in case I had any further (shooting was still going on) problems.
Click to expand...
Next time, shoot back!!!

GT
 
I called the St. Louis County Police one night when I lived in the crowded burbs. Seems a opposum had taken up residence by our swimming pool. I called the non-911 call to ask assistance and the operator told me to call 911 whenever I needed to call the police. They would "triage" the call to determine the response necessary. The LEO's that came out said the same thing.

Don't know if it's a Missouri thing, but I got the same response from my county sheriff out here in the sticks after reporting some kids road shooting on the non-911 line.
 
If I was out there with a kid I would have been freaking out. There is nothing worse then having to worry about a loved one in an attack. It is hard enough to keep tabs on your own personal safety.

good Job.
 
A couple of experiences:

1. The people across the street from me have a German Shepard they keep on a short tether. She has gotten loose and bitten at least two kids in the neighborhood, including one of my daughters. I called the local PD and since the man of the house is a chum with the deputy chief, nothing happens. I then went across the street, taking the bill from the ER for my daughter and tell them a little story of my growing up on a farm in the wild and wooly west. Our neighbor's dog got loose in our sheep one night and went and a killing rampage. My dad solved the problem with one round from a trusty 30-30. He then carried the dead dog and a bill for the dead sheep to the neighbor and got payment in full. I told them the same, the dog gets loose again and looks like she will bite any kid and the dog is DEAD. Kids are worht a whole lot more than the sheep were and for killing sheep the dog died.

2. In the late evening my family likes to walk in the neighborhood and surrounding fields and woods. I carry on these walks as you never know who or what you might run into. We go past a local physican's mansion in our walks. He has a good looking matched pair of huskies. They have a wireless fence with collars, so they stop inside the border. I have met him once or twice and was reassured they would not get out, but that if they do, not to run as they might attack. I told the good doctor that if they got out he could collect the bodies. PS - he is the only urologist in town, sure hope the prostrate never acts up on me.
 
Every place I've lived the only way to contact the police is via 911.

BTW, I think you did good.

I am a serious dog-lover, but I have no illusions. Some are vicious and some breeds are more dangerous when vicious. Any dog that looks like it is gonna take a bite outa me or mine gets to go to doggy heaven.
 
M-0-T

Anyway, as to how you handled your situation. I think you did quite well as evidenced by the fact there were no injuries. 'IF" i were to offer any advise/input at all, and that would be only IF you asked, I would say not to exercise TOO much restraint. I dont mean start blazing away at the neighbor's french poodel who slipped under the fence. But be fully aware of what waiting too long can result in. I say this based on what I have seen dogs do to large animals, namely cattle and other dogs. My father and I managed a large cattle operation in central Florida for a company that also used migrant labor for the veg crops they grew. When these migrant families moved at the end of the season, they left thier dogs at the camp. The dogs eventually got hungry, and did what they are given to do when hungry....they hunt. And I dont fault the dog, its what anything does when its hungry. The interesting thing is, local, well fed neighborhood dogs would join the pack and participate in the killing of calves. Some steers weighed in excess of 500lbs. Dogs are pack animals, and some otherwise well mannered family pets cost us quite a few $$$$ in cattle loss. If a local dog (not in the pack) wandered up on the kill when the rest were feeding, they shredded him.
In particular, the bulldog and crosses w bulldog blood seemed to have a particular pattern to the attack/kill. Once the calf began to run from the dogs, the bulldog would catch the hamstring and hang on like dead weight while throwing his head around. The bulldogs rarely if ever made a head on attack. They just tore the back drive train out of their target.
By no means am I a canine expert. But I watched these animals on occasion, and it was SCARY FAST. Again, glad no one was hurt, but the threat level in the situation you described was as high as it gets short of being in the dog's mouth. Had your child spooked and ran just a few steps, there is probably a good chance the dog would have given chase.
Just my observations, and I hope this helps. Without sounding macho, I believe had you employed your handgun, it would have been more than justified.

Hope this helps,

Dan
 
From those with law enforcement experience, or just experiences with CCW in their life, is there anything I should have done differently?
Click to expand...
I think without having dealt with your sheriff and 911 dispatch system, its hard to say.
Where I am, if I made it back indoors safely, I'd probably call animal control, or the sheriff's non-emergency dispatch number. They'll all have recorders going automatically when you call, so you'll have yourself on record as having called the authorities about drawing. (In fact, I think all three numbers feed into the same call system, they just pop up different information on the operator's screen based on what number you called.)
 
Several points:

  1. Doesn't this belong in Strategies and Tactics? :)
  2. HardCOR, 911 is not just for emergencies -- it is for any response from police/fire/ambulance. At least that's the drill everywhere I've lived. When you call in on another line, they don't get your address, and they may not be able to dispatch as efficiently.

    In some areas, the non-emergency line is only answered during business hours. Call and ask your local law enforcement!
  3. When shooting at something small and fast-moving like a dog, it is recommended that you drop to one knee, to get to the dog's level. When standing, your point of aim changes as the dog approaches you. If you kneel, your aim can stay in one place -- toward the approaching dog.
  4. I wouldn't wait for poochie to bite the muzzle before I fired. That is too damn close!
  5. Battlespace, If your neighbor's dog bites your daughter, it may be that animal control or the county health department can get involved, bypassing the sheriff who is buddies with the owner. If neither of these agencies is available in your area, the county board needs to hear about how the sheriff is ignoring a dangerous dog. There are almost always other ways!

    Oh, and the same thing goes for cops not responding to punks shooting BBs at an occupied residence. Make a stink!
  6. Ammonia and pointed sticks are fine if one is expecting a dog attack. But who is going to carry these everywhere just in case a dog attacks? A gun is a good general defense tool. Its main advantage is that it's THERE!
    [/list=1]
 
On One Knee...

When shooting at something small and fast-moving like a dog, it is recommended that you drop to one knee, to get to the dog's level. When standing, your point of aim changes as the dog approaches you. If you kneel, your aim can stay in one place -- toward the approaching dog

I wouldn't wait for poochie to bite the muzzle before I fired. That is too damn close!

:what: :scrutiny:

Uh...and when you miss, or the dog doesn't drop...your throat and face is now on HIS level. Pass...Keep your head and shoot the dog in the mouth. That's the part that can hurt you.
---------------------------

I witnessed two animal control officers face a vicious Rott. The dog was
shot multiple times with their .40 caliber Smiths, and the he still bit both
men before he fell...one seriously. Don't mean to flame, or even hold your feet to the fire here, but speaking as a dog handler and an eyewitness to more than one dog attack...A contact wound with high-pressure gases entering the injury gives you the best chance of a fast conclusion. An angry dog in the attack mode with a full head of steam isn't likely to stop because of a little pain. In fact, pain will only serve to enrage him. You need to inflict massive damage, and you can't afford to miss or hit a non-vital area. There isn't time. Ammonia won't work either. That will just provide the dog with a strengthened resolve.

A walking stick while hiking or even strolling the neighborhood is perfectly acceptable to onlookers, is no trouble to carry, and is an excellent first-response device against two or four-legged predators. In any event, the
average dog can be stopped handily with the stick, and that's much easier to explain than bustin' caps in a residential area or a public hiking trail.
____________________
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What I want to know about a man is how he does on a charging lion at
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______________________


Tuner---->out!
 
Once you have seen pictures of what a pit bull will do to a child you will shoot the SOB the second that it growls at you.

I would put the dangerous three in that same category: Rots, Pits, and Dobbermans.

I would give other mutts a warning...
 
The Dangerous Three

Actually, the aggressiveness has been bred out of Dobermans for the past
25 years or so...and they're far less likely to attack unprovoked than
a Lab.

The two breeds most likely to bite a child...believe it or not...The
Border Collie and the Cocker Spaniel.

The Border Collie's herding instinct is so strong, that a running child is
exactly the same as a sheep that has broken out of the herd. The
sheep MUST be stopped and turned around. If the sheep doesn't
obey the dog's commands, the dog bites in order to run the sheep back into the fold. This can't be trained out of a Border Collie. Small children
must be trained to stop and go back if the dog gives chase.

The Cocker Spaniels...and to a slightly lesser extent, the Brittany and Springer Spaniels...are territorial, and prone to bite if their personal
space is invaded. Since children often walk up to a sleeping dog to
pet the "nice doggie"...wham.

About 1 in a hundred dog attacks aren't real attacks... They're bite and release warnings...and only about one in a thousand is unprovoked. If you get bitten, there was something that you did to contribute to the situation...whether you realize it or not. It's usually a territorial issue with the dog...and it doesn't necessarily need to be on his home territory. The
space he happens to be occupying at the moment will do. NEVER approach a strange dog.

I'm often approached and queried about my Collies...The're beautiful and draw a lot of attention. They're also typical of Collies. They're leary of strangers. The most frequent question is: "Do they bite?'

My standard answer is..."All dogs will bite if you push the right buttons."

Woof!

Tuner
 
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