FN Five Seven . . . Why did I do it?

[MachIVshooter]

That's fine but does by no means put the PMR 30 even close from a pistol.

Actually, the wounds caused by .22 WMR would be pretty similar to those made by 5.7x28mm. The only real difference is that the WMR won't defeat armor.

But since BG's wearing body armor is much more a fabrication of hypotheticals and justifications on bulletin boards than in the real world, this "benefit" is extrememly limited.

As I said before, though, I consider either round marginal for defense. I've carried the PMR a couple times just for shiggles and gits, and was comfortable in doing so only because it has the capacity it does and has proven reliable. But it will not be displacing my normal carry guns. I have a lot more faith in the ability of my CS45 with 7 rounds to stop a threat than 20 or 30 rounds of .22 caliber bullets that aren't going fast enough to impart massive cavitation.

I'm sure DML5 will be along shortly to once again start in with his "one thimble sized bullet doesn't do any more than another thimble-sized bullet" and "expanding bullets don't work any better than non-expanding bullets" nonsense. This post was for the rest of us who understand that big holes work better than small holes.

 

[DmL5]

"one thimble sized bullet doesn't do any more than another thimble-sized bullet"

That is correct.

I have a lot more faith in the ability of my CS45 with 7 rounds to stop a threat than 20 or 30 rounds of .22 caliber bullets that aren't going fast enough to impart massive cavitation.

The .45 ACP bullets fired from your CS45 do not impart "massive cavitation" in a human body either; they poke tiny holes.

The CS45 does, however, have an incredibly poor magazine capacity that is only one-third (1/3) or one-fourth (1/4) as large as that of the Five-seveN or PMR-30.

 

[bbuddtec]

...and there's your difference... J Shirley said it best.

end your remorse. You got something worth a whole lotta posts...

 

[Strahley]

If I need to punch through armor with a small caliber, I'll take some steel core 5.45x39, please and thank you. It also won't cost me but about 1/4 or 1/5 the price

 

[DmL5]

If I need to punch through armor with a small caliber, I'll take some steel core 5.45x39, please and thank you. It also won't cost me but about 1/4 or 1/5 the price

It's also not a pistol caliber, so it's not relevant to the discussion.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

and the rounds are expensive..

If they are expensive then stick to 9mm or .40 for personal defence because its alittle cheaper in most places than .45 ACP.

 

[usp9]

Can't we just own a gun for fun? Does it have to win WW III? Can we just get over the armor craziness? We owners promise not to hunt elephant with it. Can you 5.7 haters just agree to not foam at the mouth every time a thread discussion mentions the round?

Please. It's boring.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Can't we just own a gun for fun?

Of course. I'd probably have one, too, if they were half the price they are. For me (and many others), a grand is just too much for a gun like the Five-seveN.

It's fanboys like DML5 (who registers with gun boards and only posts in threads about the 5.7x28 and it's platforms) that cause these threads to denigrate. Coming here and touting it as the best thing ever because "it's the only handgun round that'll poke holes in soft armor and it's wounding ability is just as good as any other round" is ignorant and guaranteed to ignite a spirited debate.

 

[stiletto raggio]

Point 1: it i ridiculous to compare the 5.7 round to the 5.56 round, especially to say that a 5.7 out of a pistol is somehow equivalent to the .223 out of a rifle. A 62 grain bullet at 3000 fps from a platform that give 1 MOA accuracy is an entirely different beast than a pistol that puts 30-40 grain bullets 500-1000 fps slower. Even from a PS90, the 5.7 round is better compared to a 9mm than to a true rifle cartridge. That makes sense since it was desgined as a subgun cartridge.

Point 2: While the 22 WMR is slower than the 5.7, I don't see what effect that has on the only legitimate role these pistols play: field guns. Both are significantly faster than a .22 LR and will kill rabbits and other small game with authority. While I would not feel poorly armed with either for eslf-defense purposes, I would much rather have a conventional 9mm in virtually all SD situations.

Point 3: The pistol and ammunition for the 5.7 are much more epxensive than the PMR and good .22 WMR ammo. .22 WMR ammo is available at most major retail outlets; 5.7 is difficult to find.

All of these facts bring me to this point: either the PMR or the Five Seven would be good field pistols that are capable of taking small game far more effectively than a .22 LR. Neither approaches being a substitute for a centerfire rifle. Since the PMR is lighter, cheaper to purchase and cheaper to feed, I think it is a far more reasonable purchase.

While you can argue that the velocity advantage with the 5.7 is significant enough to be worth the cost, I think of it much in terms of varmint cartridges. Sure, the .220 Swift will beat the .223 by hundred of feet per second, but the costs associated aren't justfified by the difference. Both will kill a coyote; neither is a good choice for big game.

 

[gripper]

I prefer the Tokarev.......inM57 or Ppsh43 trim.....OT ,but as long as we are talking high speed pistol rounds on a budget......

 

[jibbs]

I too want a 5.7 when I can get the chance to afford one. My friend has one, its a great flat shoot gun with little recoil. Lots of capacity, there is really not much to dislike about it other than the fact that the gun is expensive and ammo is kind of as well. You made a good choice, I too hope someday I will have one.

A little off course but I am surprised no one brought up the granddaddy of pistol penetrators, the 7.62x25. I bought a Yugo M57 to help fill my 5.7 fix until I could afford a FiveSeven. Granted there is a lot to be desired in magazine capacity, but so far as ballistics, I'm pretty sure the 7.62x25 owns the 5.7x25 every time in penetration tests. Granted it doesn't have the speed, but it certainly makes up for in mass, at almost double the weight (40grs vs 80grs). Plus it is so cheap to shoot, I don't even have to reload for it, as my time is worth more than the rounds. I think its a shame that no modern handgun is chambered in this round.

I understand that the PMR30 is in the same category as the FiveSeven, I was just looking at it from a ballistics standpoint.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I understand that the PMR30 is in the same category as the FiveSeven,

They really aren't. Aside from both having huge magazines and firing tiny bullets, they don't have much in common. The PMR design predates the Five-seveN, for starters (Grendel P-30, circa 1990). It and it's later incarnation as the PMR were never designed to be combat pistols, but field guns/range toys. The Five-seveN was meant to complement the P90 PDW, it just really ended up offering little more than the P-30/PMR in the end. And at a much higher price tag.

Like I said, I can see the attraction, just not at $1,000. If I find one for $500-ish, I'll grab it.

The PMR, OTOH, at $329, is a whole lot of fun without breaking the bank. Ammo is also 1/3 the cost of 5.7x28mm

Sure, the .220 Swift will beat the .223 by hundred of feet per second, but the costs associated aren't justfified by the difference.

That's not really a good parallel to draw. While the PMR and Five-seveN have about the same capabilities in the field within the confines of pistol ranges, the .220 Swift gives a lot more reach than the .223. If the rifle's accuracy is up to the task, .220 will allow varminting a good 300 yards further out. .223 is really a 400 yard cartridge for praire dogs, while the .220 maintains a much flatter trajectory and still hits with authority at 700 yards. it's push a 55 gr. bullet a full 800 FPS faster. That said, if your .223 and .220 are both shooting over MOA, then the extra range of the .220 becomes rather useless.

 

[m2steven]

I don't think anyone is missing the point. I think that you just have to shoot the 5.7 AFTER shooting something else. You really can't appreciate the speed and accuracy AND the ease of followup shots afforded by the FN. It's truly eye-opening. You can get the same general effect shooting the 357 SIG. But the SIG is noticeably slower and followup shots are more difficult. For me, personally, that's a big deal. My 5x7 is pretty much pointed where I need it to be pointed shot after shot. Even shooting rapidly.

Ammo is a bit higher than 45ACP. I can find it for 18.95 per box of 50 if I look. I can buy it all day for 19.95 per box. That isn't cheap. But it's not prohibitive for most people. I do agree that the base cost of the pistol is higher than it needs to be. I think 700.00 msrp would be a much better price point. FN would sell more pistols and much more ammo with more pistols being owned and fired. I agree that the 22 magnum round is a good
substitute for most applications. I love the round personally, and think it offers great bang/fun per buck.

I don't own a PMR 30 but if it's as accurate as my 5x7 i'll have to have one. Finding a report of the FN misfiring or having feeding problems is so rare as to practically be irrelevent. I know SOME PMR30's have had teething problems.

If you can't afford the 5x7, and you have not fired a 357 SIG - by all means do so. Ammo is about the same price, and my G32 appears to be as accurate as my FN. Plus it was 'only' about 500 bucks. The 357 ammo is very flat shooting and you can shoot quarter size targets at 75 yards all day long. It's very confidence inspiring. So is the 5x7 FN.

 

[CornCod]

If I were a Mexican cop, I might want a five-seven because a lot of the drug lords down there have body armor. I don't think a lot of American crooks get caught with body armor, but I might be mistaken. As a Criminal Justice instructor I would love to see someone do a study on the subject.

 

[Strahley]

It's also not a pistol caliber, so it's not relevant to the discussion

Point being if I knew I needed to defeat body armor, a gun chambered in 5.7x28 would not be my choice. Just another reason that it isn't anything special, and it's much more expensive than the better alternatives

 

[Strahley]

If I were a Mexican cop, I might want a five-seven because a lot of the drug lords down there have body armor. I don't think a lot of American crooks get caught with body armor, but I might be mistaken. As a Criminal Justice instructor I would love to see someone do a study on the subject.

If I were a Mexican cop, I'd be strapped with long guns my entire shift

 

[DmL5]

Point being if I knew I needed to defeat body armor, a gun chambered in 5.7x28 would not be my choice.

Since we're discussing sidearms and roles that only sidearms can fill, there are really no other valid options; a rifle is not an option because it's not concealable.

 

[Pete D.]

sporting goods

Can't we just own a gun for fun?

Great to read that. +1.

There is a mindset - more common than my own, I suppose - that sees firearms in general and pistols in particular only as tools of combat.
Most of my guns - including my AR, my 1911, my FiveSeven, etc - are sporting goods pure and simple.
My only real criticism about the PMR-30/FiveSeven thing is that many folk misunderstand the ballistics. Yes, the .22 mag is cheaper to shoot (unless you hand load, which I do). But it does not approach the ballistics of the 5.7X28...a technical complaint only. Comparisons are inapt.
The gun has become expensive. When I bought mine. it was in the sevens, similar to what I paid for my Gold Cup years ago.
If a person can afford the piece, so what? People afford what they want to. I think that every hunting season when I see pickups with a dedicated trailer and two, three, four ATVs on the back. $$$$. And here I am, walking into the woods.
Pete

 

[Orion8472]

Okay, while I like my Five Seven, I realize that it, and the ammunition it shoots, isn't the best thing out there. IF you had to use a gun for SD, there are other rounds that are more capable. Sure, I'd love to have a high capacity .45acp that holds ~ 15 rounds. In that case, I'd like to have a high capacity 1911. But if . . . IF . . . something were to happen that required you carrying your weapon and rounds, you can carry a LOT more 5.7X28 than many of the other rounds. And in that case, more of anything would be better than running out of a few. Granted, this is unlikely to happen, but should it be necessary, the more you can carry the better.

Realistically, the 5.7X28 isn't a "top performer" when it comes to ballistics. However, it has good potential. Even the lowly .22lr has killed.

 

[gripper]

I wonder if there is heavier bullet loads/loading data out there-and how fast they could be pushed.There IS saboted .22 type data for the 7.62x25;so this thread has ME thinking.Of course I still want a 15-20 shot double stack TY33/M57 type design to roll out.....Back OT -ammo cost for the 5.7 and relatively low sectional density seem to be what keeps me away.Of course,I DO support owning and shooting what one wants and is fun.

 

[Pete D.]

heavy

I wonder if there is heavier bullet loads/loading data out there-and how fast they could be pushed.

Before the 5.7X28 made it into the load books, there was a lot of experimenting. Much of it was recorded and archived over at the 5.7 forum. IIRC those archives were lost in a crash or a hack attack.
I experimented with 55 grain FMJs for awhile and had gotten them up to 1600 fps when I stopped - lack of pressure equipment. At 1400 fps, the 55's make a great and inexpensive field/plinking round.
Pete

 

[Father_of_10]

Saturday I was out to the range again. I put 50 rds through the 5.7 and loved it. Do I have it for self defense? No, but it is a great gun to shoot and if needed, would be a great combat sidearm if the crap ever hit the fan. After having it for a few weeks and putting about 200 rds through it, I've found it is easy to shoot, has great accuracy and feeds my over-inflated ego. What more could a guy want? I'm glad I bought it.

 

[usp9]

I'm glad I bought it.

That's what counts. I haven't taken mine out in a while, but I do know it puts a smile on my face whenever I do.

 

[Orion8472]

One thing is for certain. Come the pending zombie apocalyps, those with a Five Seven, and a couple thousand rounds, will be set up.

I suppose the PMR-30 would work, too.

 

[dcarch]

I am still rather doubting of the validity of the so-called "zombie apocalypse." Better zombies then werewolves, I suppose. Now that would be a scary thought. A werewolf apocalypse.