jwr747
Member
from what I've seen and heard,folks who might encounter a Grizz.say a Marlin lever gun in .444 is their first choice with a 44mag revolver as backup.and hope for a straight on nose shot. jwr
For bear country: .45 ACP +P or Tokarev?
- Thread starter Retro
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1KPerDay
Member
Whichever one you can throw hardest.
Deanimator
Member
1. Mountain lions are not renowned for their toughness. Bears on the other hand are a much tougher opponent.
2. 7.62x25mm is not known for its large game killing abilities. It'd probably be adequate on a mountain lion, but you'd be foolish to use one on a bear of any size or aggressiveness, certainly unless you're shooting it out of a PPSh 41 or a PPS 43.
2. 7.62x25mm is not known for its large game killing abilities. It'd probably be adequate on a mountain lion, but you'd be foolish to use one on a bear of any size or aggressiveness, certainly unless you're shooting it out of a PPSh 41 or a PPS 43.
moooose102
Member
of the two, i would go with the 45 acp+p. BUT i SERIOUSLY DOUBT the effectiveness of this to protect your life! i am VERY CONCERNED about its usefulness on BLACK BEARS, let alone grizzleys! if money was no issue (which it is) i would have a 460 s&w for bears for a handgun. but honestly, if i had my choice of any gun for a grizz, it would be a 458 lott!
I'd say either one. I mean ask yourself have you been attacked by a bear when your carried either of those calibers? 
But seriously, if you have to carry the Tokarev without one in the chamber I would recommend you carry the .45 ACP. The less you have to do, the quicker your response to any critter will be.
But seriously, if you have to carry the Tokarev without one in the chamber I would recommend you carry the .45 ACP. The less you have to do, the quicker your response to any critter will be.
FreuderLocks
Member
I use the Hornady +P loads in my 1911 for home defense, Take the Tok to the Bears, the muzzle flash alone should stop them.
-Freuder
-Freuder
R.W.Dale
Member
Are you serious?
Be sure to save the last round or better yet the first round for yourself in the event of a bear attack. That way you don't have to watch it eat you alive.
This is one of those cases where a $120 Mosin carbine would actually be about 42,000% better suited to the job. So don't tell me $$$ is a issue. Sell either the 45 or the tok and buy a rifle or come to terms with the fact you could become part of the food chain
If you are going in Grizzly country I would invest in a much heavier weapon or DON'T GO. I would be confident with a 45 with a deep penetrating round around the black or brown bear in this area but Grizzly? NO WAY. I would want at least a 30 caliber rifle. My K31 Swiss or my M44 would be good candidates with a pistol backup.
ccsniper
member
Retro
Member
Thanks for all the inputs. 460 Rowland in a 1911 platform was something that I was initially considering because my PT1911 has a forged lower frame and can take the recoil but unfortunately I do not reload because my wife won't allow it in the house because she thinks that I will blow up the house.
I had a 6'' Ruger Super Redhawk .44 magnum a few years ago but I sold it, partially because the round was so unpleasant to shoot that the recoil literally broke my leather shooting glove. I tried other large game revolvers but didn't like them either. Just not a revolver-type-of-guy...
Probably will invest in a Desert Eagle or 10 mm 1911 then (still not totally convinced that polymer framed Glocks can take the recoil of a 10 mm round)... And before that, bear spray and reindeer bells around my neck, since Tok and .45 ACP are more for solving constipation than killing bears, according to some posters.
I had a 6'' Ruger Super Redhawk .44 magnum a few years ago but I sold it, partially because the round was so unpleasant to shoot that the recoil literally broke my leather shooting glove. I tried other large game revolvers but didn't like them either. Just not a revolver-type-of-guy...
Probably will invest in a Desert Eagle or 10 mm 1911 then (still not totally convinced that polymer framed Glocks can take the recoil of a 10 mm round)... And before that, bear spray and reindeer bells around my neck, since Tok and .45 ACP are more for solving constipation than killing bears, according to some posters.
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Eight rounds of steel jacketed 7.62 Tokarev rounds will be plenty for a griz if all rounds hit target. They will penetrate chest and skull with possibly little deformation to the bullets.
Slower bullets and wider bullets may not have the penetration required. Bigger is sometimes not better.
Slower bullets and wider bullets may not have the penetration required. Bigger is sometimes not better.
chainsawmike
Member
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Lived in AK for awhile. I carried a .22 when fishing or hiking. It was lighter than a shotgun or big bore pistol. Never had any problems. Just pointed .22 at my head when a bear came close.
RX-178
Member
I'll repeat what's been said.
Bear Spray.
Let me repeat it again.
Bear Spray.
And one time just so you don't forget it.
Bear Spray.
Okay? Bear Spray is more successful in PROTECTING PEOPLE FROM BEAR ATTACKS. Bear Spray won't kill a bear, and you won't have any opportunity to tell a story on how you had to use a handgun and kill a bear to save yourself, but bear spray is more likely to save your life.
That being said, if you're a good enough shot, go with the 7.62x25. It'll penetrate much deeper into a target. That is IF you're that good a shot, and you know the anatomy of animals you might encounter, in order to place those shots.
Otherwise, use the .45. A less well-aimed shot from the .45 is more likely to stop smaller threats than a less well-aimed shot from a 7.62x25. Just don't think 'bear' with either caliber.
BEAR SPRAY.
Bear Spray.
Let me repeat it again.
Bear Spray.
And one time just so you don't forget it.
Bear Spray.
Okay? Bear Spray is more successful in PROTECTING PEOPLE FROM BEAR ATTACKS. Bear Spray won't kill a bear, and you won't have any opportunity to tell a story on how you had to use a handgun and kill a bear to save yourself, but bear spray is more likely to save your life.
That being said, if you're a good enough shot, go with the 7.62x25. It'll penetrate much deeper into a target. That is IF you're that good a shot, and you know the anatomy of animals you might encounter, in order to place those shots.
Otherwise, use the .45. A less well-aimed shot from the .45 is more likely to stop smaller threats than a less well-aimed shot from a 7.62x25. Just don't think 'bear' with either caliber.
BEAR SPRAY.
Sunray
Member
Neither. Shoot a griz with either and you'll just have a very big, wounded, PO'd, bear chewing on you. You can't run fast enough either. Yogi can run at about 35 MPH.
If kitty wants you for dinner, they come from above and behind, far faster than you can do anything. Hunting kitty isn't the same as defending yourself against an attack.
If kitty wants you for dinner, they come from above and behind, far faster than you can do anything. Hunting kitty isn't the same as defending yourself against an attack.
Retro
Member
RX-178, you can repeat "bear spray" 10 more times if you like, but one time would really suffice, really... Although my real experience were mostly with 9 mm in combat, I know what a .45 ACP can do. This post was more to get an idea from those who had real experience with Tokarev round in the wild, relative to the power of .45 ACP round... not soliciting some comment which simply reiterates what was stated by others... and certainly not to read "bear spray" reiterated four times. If I needed that info, the title of my post would have been "How to stop a bear from attacking me." And even if that is my title, uttering "bear spray" one time would really suffice. Thanks.
Sunray
Member
Retro, combat has nothing whatever to do with it. Neither round is even close to being adequate for a griz. Combat and big bears just is not the same thing. The average male runs 500 to 800 lbs of poor eyesight and short temper.
Mind you, bear spray gives no guarantee either. Yogi will avoid you if he can. A jingle bell, on your person, tells Yogi you're there and he'll avoid you. He can move like a ghost even in thick bush. So can a moose with 5 or 6 feet of antler width.
Get between Cindy and her kids, though, you're toast if you only have either a 7.62 Tokarev's 85or 90 grain bullet or a .45's 230 grain bullet isn't enough.
"...Eight rounds of steel jacketed 7.62 Tokarev rounds will be plenty for a griz if all rounds hit target..." Absolute rubbish.
Mind you, bear spray gives no guarantee either. Yogi will avoid you if he can. A jingle bell, on your person, tells Yogi you're there and he'll avoid you. He can move like a ghost even in thick bush. So can a moose with 5 or 6 feet of antler width.
Get between Cindy and her kids, though, you're toast if you only have either a 7.62 Tokarev's 85or 90 grain bullet or a .45's 230 grain bullet isn't enough.
"...Eight rounds of steel jacketed 7.62 Tokarev rounds will be plenty for a griz if all rounds hit target..." Absolute rubbish.
loop
Member
I really hope this thread is a joke.
A mountain lion and griz are two completely different animals, um, categories.
We use .22 mags on mountain lions because it is the lightest caliber that is legal here.
Griz? Another story!
The minimum is 200-grain hardball in 10mm.
You are comparing popping a jackrabbit to the most fearsome game in North America.
Tok rounds will get you mauled by a griz. They'll drop a cougar in its tracks.
They will also defeat body armor - so what? When was the last time you ran into a puma wearing body armor?
When you are defending yourself against large predators you defend yourself against the biggest, baddest predator you may run into.
I'd take on a cat with a can of Skoal. For a griz, at least a 10mm...
A mountain lion and griz are two completely different animals, um, categories.
We use .22 mags on mountain lions because it is the lightest caliber that is legal here.
Griz? Another story!
The minimum is 200-grain hardball in 10mm.
You are comparing popping a jackrabbit to the most fearsome game in North America.
Tok rounds will get you mauled by a griz. They'll drop a cougar in its tracks.
They will also defeat body armor - so what? When was the last time you ran into a puma wearing body armor?
When you are defending yourself against large predators you defend yourself against the biggest, baddest predator you may run into.
I'd take on a cat with a can of Skoal. For a griz, at least a 10mm...
earlthegoat2
Member
Either of those will be fine as long as you also carry some bear spray and another piece of proven bear medicine such as a 338, 375, or hot loaded 45/70.
The Lone Haranguer
Member
Unless you can put the bullet directly into the relevant portion of the brain, neither are going to be a bear stopper. It may go off and die later of blood loss or infection - during which time it will become even more dangerous - but if you're already being mauled that may be a little longer than you want to wait. 
Retro
Member
No, it is not a joke.
If you read my original post, my question was "which caliber was more effective than the other"... and if neither calibers are truly effective against grizzlies (which I knew, and had stated on the 1st post), then I am sure one caliber will be more ineffective than the other caliber, as all things and effects can be measured on a graduated scale.
I sincerely appreciate those posters which gave their constructive opinions on which of the two are more ineffective. But I am really not appreciating those posts which either belittle the OP or reiterate the same didactic chant over and over again... You think I am a newbie and I don't know 10 mm or 44 mag is more effective against bears? Come on. But that was not my question.
And for those who have never fired a Tokarev, or thinks it is some scrap metal firing a small caliber round similar to 9 x 18 Makarov, then perhaps posting on a thread specifically asking for real experience is not for you. I have seen what a Tokarev round can do to a human being, with effects 10 times more devastating than a 9 mm, and 5 times more than a mil spec .45 round.
And yes, I will be carrying my .45 ACP and a can of bear spray during my next hike because I cannot carry a Tok chambered. And no, I am not going grizzly hunting with a .45. And yes, I know the difference between mountain lions and grizzly bears. And yes, I do have high power rifles capable of sub-MOA accuracy at my disposal if I want to hunt bears. And no, I do not need to sell my current pistols to buy a rifle.
Thanks.
R
If you read my original post, my question was "which caliber was more effective than the other"... and if neither calibers are truly effective against grizzlies (which I knew, and had stated on the 1st post), then I am sure one caliber will be more ineffective than the other caliber, as all things and effects can be measured on a graduated scale.
I sincerely appreciate those posters which gave their constructive opinions on which of the two are more ineffective. But I am really not appreciating those posts which either belittle the OP or reiterate the same didactic chant over and over again... You think I am a newbie and I don't know 10 mm or 44 mag is more effective against bears? Come on. But that was not my question.
And for those who have never fired a Tokarev, or thinks it is some scrap metal firing a small caliber round similar to 9 x 18 Makarov, then perhaps posting on a thread specifically asking for real experience is not for you. I have seen what a Tokarev round can do to a human being, with effects 10 times more devastating than a 9 mm, and 5 times more than a mil spec .45 round.
And yes, I will be carrying my .45 ACP and a can of bear spray during my next hike because I cannot carry a Tok chambered. And no, I am not going grizzly hunting with a .45. And yes, I know the difference between mountain lions and grizzly bears. And yes, I do have high power rifles capable of sub-MOA accuracy at my disposal if I want to hunt bears. And no, I do not need to sell my current pistols to buy a rifle.
Thanks.
R
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WardenWolf
member
Well, there are some modern Makarov-style pistols chambered in the Tokarev round, so the inability to safely carry chambered can be worked around while keeping the same caliber. While the Tokarev is a better round than .45 for dealing with a bear, you're still more likely to just piss it off. Assuming it's already pissed off, you better hope the bear presents you with a damn good shot. If it comes down to that, you're probably dead.
We advised you as best we could, by telling you the hard facts, and apparently you failed to recognize that. A bear is not like a human. Humans can't run and fight despite already being effectively dead. Humans can't shrug off non-lethal shots; humans go into shock easily. Bears do not. A Tokarev loaded with hollowpoints can maybe do more damage to a human than a 9mm or .45, but against a bear it won't have the penetration. Same goes for .45 ACP. Fact is, if you aren't carrying enough gun, you might as well not even have one. Even if you manage to mortally wound the bear, you probably won't survive the encounter, and you may just enrage it. A bear is not a human. Never try to apply anti-human tactics and logic to fighting a bear. You will lose. Horribly.
We advised you as best we could, by telling you the hard facts, and apparently you failed to recognize that. A bear is not like a human. Humans can't run and fight despite already being effectively dead. Humans can't shrug off non-lethal shots; humans go into shock easily. Bears do not. A Tokarev loaded with hollowpoints can maybe do more damage to a human than a 9mm or .45, but against a bear it won't have the penetration. Same goes for .45 ACP. Fact is, if you aren't carrying enough gun, you might as well not even have one. Even if you manage to mortally wound the bear, you probably won't survive the encounter, and you may just enrage it. A bear is not a human. Never try to apply anti-human tactics and logic to fighting a bear. You will lose. Horribly.
Galadren
Member
For bear country?
Bring a .308. Either a Saiga or something else semi-automatic that can squeeze off rounds fast.
Ok, seriously, out of those options I'd have to go with a .45 and get something like Hydra-Shoks. Something that will maximise the amount of damage you can do with a pistol round.
Bring a .308. Either a Saiga or something else semi-automatic that can squeeze off rounds fast.
Ok, seriously, out of those options I'd have to go with a .45 and get something like Hydra-Shoks. Something that will maximise the amount of damage you can do with a pistol round.
Arbor
Member
This is probably going to piss off a lot of people who like to chime in about how you are absolutely going to get eaten if you don't carry a shoulder howitzer around at all times, based on their very limited/nonexistent wilderness experience but...
The only weapon you need is between your ears. Nobody I've met who covers serious miles carries a firearm. They are way to heavy. Unless you are just screwing around doing 5 or 10 mile days, you're going to regret carrying that rifle.
In addition to the odds being ridiculously small that you will be charged by a grizzly bear (black bears/cougars/etc are not aggressive), shooting at it with a handgun (or almost anything if you don't shoot straight) could turn a "dummy charge" into an actual bear attack.
Yes, I accept that bears attack people. But you're still much safer than walking around in the city. Arm yourself accordingly.
The only weapon you need is between your ears. Nobody I've met who covers serious miles carries a firearm. They are way to heavy. Unless you are just screwing around doing 5 or 10 mile days, you're going to regret carrying that rifle.
In addition to the odds being ridiculously small that you will be charged by a grizzly bear (black bears/cougars/etc are not aggressive), shooting at it with a handgun (or almost anything if you don't shoot straight) could turn a "dummy charge" into an actual bear attack.
Yes, I accept that bears attack people. But you're still much safer than walking around in the city. Arm yourself accordingly.
My great uncle killed the last grizzly bear in Utah in the 30's. He used a .32 caliber winchester rifle that most "experts" will tell you isn't suitable for Whitetail. Unless your location is SE Alaska or Montana you have zero chance of running into a grizzly. I have spent more time in the wilderness than most people and have rarely seen cougars and those I have seen have been hightailing it away from me. Carry the .45 and make a little noise and you will be perfectly fine. If you have a good dog that might work well too.
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