10 mm or .45 ACP?

[Zsnark]

.45 Super...is it a practical handgun load.

Hey there Gunners,

I've been reading about .45 Super for about 20 years. It's a very attractive proposition. Get a supportive barrel and heavy springs, etc.

Howsomever, is it really practical to trick up your steel frame 1911 and happily shoot heavy duty .45 ammo.

Also, the EAA Witness is supposed to handle 10mm; I would think that it would be up to the task.

Bottom line, anybody had any experience with this round?

Al W

 

[Grunt Medic TXARNG]

No personal experience with this round, sorry. I do note that Chris Byrne over at The Gun Counter swears by his Yost 1911 in .45 Super. I also know that the USP is described as the only production .45 rated for .45 super out of the box - unfortunately I had sold my USP years past by the time I learned that.

 

[killchain]

The 10mm would be the better choice for a bear.

 

[IdahoLT1]

Id definitely go with the 10mm. Its what I carry for my back packing/hunting here in Idaho. When you reload, your new Starline brass will cost $5 more per 500 cases and you'll be using a bit more power. Its not THAT much more expensive than .40S&W like some will have you believe.

 

[gofastman]

What's adequate will depend on how big your bears get. Don't expect the bear to instantly stop doing whatever it's doing because it's shot in the act, and continue to fight if you're getting mauled, even if it's hand against claws/teeth. Black bears don't like food that fights back. (And are more likely to attack to snack than browns/grizzlies.)

I think it's a given that generally black bears are non-aggressive toward humans. Most people understand this.

wat?

 

[BLB68]

wat?

Let me try again:

1. Black bears are generally non-aggressive toward humans.
2. This is a thread about the exception to the rule.
3. The most common reasons a black bear attacks a human are as follows:
a. TO EAT THE HUMAN. Bears have broken into tents and simply started eating the occupants, on more than one occasion. Yes, black bears.
b. To protect the cute little bear cubs.
c. Uncategorized. Maybe the bear's having a bad day.
4. Black bears do not respond to the curl up and play dead act the way that Grizzlies/Browns do, because they attack for different reasons. If hunger or dementia is the reason for the attack and you play dead, the bear may just consider you a meal. You always fight a black bear with everything you have while trying to protect your vitals as much as possible.


Edit: Unfortunately, I don't have verifiable sources handy at the moment, but found out some of this (i.e. tent attacks) a while back while researching bear spray and bears in general.

Also, edited to remove snarky sounding comment. Sorry about that.

 

[gofastman]

that makes more sense, thanks for clearing that up

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I'd go with the Glock 20SF. That just may be my next purchase. Approaching .41 magnum perfomance and you've got 15+1 if things really go bad with a bear.

 

[Guillermo]

for bears the 10mm is the superior round.

That said, I would not want to own one unless I reload...that stuff is pricey

 

[BLB68]

I look at handgun choices for bears like a use of force continuum:

1. Don't go in the bear's back yard.
2. Make noise so the bear can avoid you.
3. Bear spray if you can.
4. Your partner bear sprays while you are being mauled.
5. Weapons. By this point you are already being mauled and should be thinking about what you could have done to avoid the mauling.
6. Bite the bear back!

A second person, with both of you being loaded up with a) noisemakers, b) bear spray and c) weapon is the best thing you can do. And the more the merrier. A pack of humans is more of a deterrent than a single or pair of humans, but if you get hit by surprise and you're alone or your partner isn't prepared to deal with the situation, then you are going to get seriously hurt if you do get mauled.

Oh, as to the OP's question: I'd go for penetration above all else. Black Hills seems to have a lot of ammo that's designed for such outdoor use IIRC. I'd assume 10mm wins on that account, but you probably want to look at specific loads for each.

 

[Strahley]

If I knew I was about to fight a bear and I had to pick between 10mm and .45, I'd go with the 10mm. I'm not really a fan of 10mm, but it is the better choice

 

[DustyVermonter]

I think both calibers would do the job, so if you want to be all sensible about it I guess technically you really don't have to run out to the nearest gun shop and outfit yourself with a brandy new Glock 20...and 29 for the wife.

But that's no fun, I'd go get a gun, just for the hell of it. I actually own an early generation Glock 20 and I'm just as impressed as hell with it, 10mm is definitely a powerhouse of a load and very accurate up to long ranges. I absolutely love my G20, but I think my G21 (.45acp) would do just as clean of a job as my G20 as far as defense from black bears goes.(all the while keeping in mind that bears seldom bother people in their homes anyway).

I would get it. If I was about to buy a house and the thought of buying a gun I wanted even entered my mind, I would buy it as a house warming gift to myself, justified.

 

[BushyGuy]

I'd pick the .45 acp hands down. Reasons- ammo more available and makes a bigger hole.

.45acp caliber is legendary, the 10mm is close to a .357 mag velocity but ammo is very hard to find and barrels wear out alot faster.

.45 acp is a very effective manstopper, add +p rounds in a .45 acp and your golden.

there isnt a job that .45 acp with +p JHP cant handle.

 

[brandon_mcg]

the bear spray is great advice. .45 acp will be more readily available i think. i think .45 acp is a effective as a man stopper as well as the 10mm. but to be honest, a hungry or angry bear is going to act much different than a human so hopefully you will never have to find out if the caliber you chose works effectively.

 

[Dropyourweapon]

Between the .45 and 10mm I take the 10mm against bears hands down. In the woods I carry my G29 10mm. Its easy to pack and is still 11 rounds of hot 230 grain bullets. If I was actually intending to run into a bear I would carry no less than my S&W 500 with hot 500 grain loads.

 

[HKGuns]

Get a bowie knife.

 

[swinokur]

A couple of posts mentioned conversion barrels. One mentioned 45 to 10mm and this is not reliable enough for SD because the extractor and breech face don't match the 10mm brass correctly. Some people have no problems but some report many issues. IMO not good for SD against a bear.

The other post mentioned 10mm to 45. I don't believe such a barrel exists. Conversions for the 10mm are .40 S & W, 357Sig and 9 x 25 Dillon.

I have a G29 and conversion barrel to .40S&W for cheaper practice ammo. I have a 6 inch barrel that takes velocity back to that of a G20 for furry creatures. I use G20 mags with A & G spacer sleeves. I can then use the gun for woods or SD. My thinking is I can make a G29 bigger but you can't shrink a G20. If it's just a woods gun, go for the G20

I don't believe JHP are a good choice for animals. The secret to stopping a larger animal is penetration to the vital organs, not a big hole. Several folks have mentioned the hard cast flat nose 200g bullets from DT and BB. Much better suited to bears than any JHP IMO

My .02

 

[gofastman]

ammo is very hard to find and barrels wear out alot faster.

there isnt a job that .45 acp with +p JHP cant handle.

no, no, and no :banghead:

 

[Clark]

For factory ammo the power hierarchy is:
1) 44 mag
2) 10mm
3) 45acp
4) 40s&w

For those who handload hot the power hierarchy is:
1) 45acp
2) 40s&w
3) 10mm
4) 44 mag

 

[saturno_v]

My S&W 1006 10mm is my "light" wildlife defense sidearm (cougars, small black bears in the western WA woods)
Yes it has less capacity than a Glock 20 but i cannot really stand polymer pistols with no external hammer....I just tolerate my p-11 because it is a pocket piece.

If I really have to carry a revolver I take my 44 Mag with me.....I do not think the 357 Mag wheelies make any sense anymore....

 

[Dr.cry]

I've lived around black bears for most of my life. They won't hurt you. They typically only hurt people who screw with them. That said, I believe it would be easier to kill a bear with the G20. And you might also want to pack a smaller cal. weapon to protect against raccoons.

 

[NWCP]

I'd go with the .45 Super, but then I have an HK that will eat the stuff without any issues. Otherwise a 10mm if you have to use an autoloader. A good sidearm for a walk around gun in bear country is the .41 magnum and as stated earlier a can of pepper spray is always good to have. That way the bear can season your sorry butt before he starts to have you for lunch.

 

[BrainOnSigs]

 

[BrainOnSigs]

I'd go with the .45 Super, but then I have an HK that will eat the stuff without any issues. Otherwise a 10mm if you have to use an autoloader. A good sidearm for a walk around gun in bear country is the .41 magnum and as stated earlier a can of pepper spray is always good to have. That way the bear can season your sorry butt before he starts to have you for lunch.

Studies have shown that bear spray is better than a gun in deterring bear attacks. Bear spray caused bears to stop and straight out flee over 92% of the time, and this included examples of bears foraging an area for food and leaving the entire area. Guns only worked 67% of the time, meaning one third of the time the bullet wounds actually made the bears MORE aggressive.

 

[deacon8]

Don't know about you, but I would never choose "bear spray" over a .45 or 10mm. I guess it works sometimes, but no way. I'm not going to risk my life on a can of "people seasoning." When I lived in Alaska, bear spray was considered a joke by most. Maybe it's gotten better in the last 10 years though, but I'll never know because I sure as hell won't set down a gun for a can of spray. I don't want to "hopefully" confuse his senses (that's really all it does), I want to put that mother down before he puts me down!

Haha. That should get some angry, defensive responses. Now, if it were my choice between the two, I would opt for the .45 ACP. Then I would load it up with a good quality 230 grain bullet--not a HP though. Bears are big and have big, heavy bones. A hollowpoint just isn't going to cut it. Personally, I wouldn't get anything lighter than 230 gr., for penetration purposes as well. And I handload as well, so load up some max, or near-max loads. 230 gr, FMJ. There you go--my $0.02. Hope that helps.

P.S. I don't care what those "super-legitimate, non-biased studies" say. Spray is simply not as effective as a gun. Trust me, I know what I am talking about. The only people that would say spray is better than a gun, are anti-gun whackos and the companies who make the spray. Normal people do get duped into believing spray is better though. There was a fairly large gun shop/hangout spot that I used to frequent up there...this topic was brought up often. The owner, who is a hell of a good guy, though quite a character, once joked that he has never seen a returning customer for bear spray. HAHA! Oh well, when will people realize that nothing is better than a high-power rifle for stopping something right now?