For self-defense shooting, the revolver has been surpassed, EXCEPT...

[Guillermo]

Gentlemen,

While obviously everyone is trying to stay "high road" about this, we can discuss the issue and still be within the objective that Oleg envisioned.

A shooting, good or bad, can get you into jail. Heck, a malfunctioning gun can get you into jail. Ask David Olofson.

Being right, being innocent and being found not guilty are, in fact, three separate issues. Let us assume that you, the shooter, is both right and innocent.

The goal of being found "not guilty" is about minimizing evidence that can be used against you. Having your gun toss brass around can indeed come back to bite you.

Shots fired, location of the shooter, location of anything that the brass could ricochet off of, where they might be kicked by EMS and/or police personnel, if some are missing, found mysteriously in another room or outside (assuming the incident occured inside). All of these things can be used as the vehicle for the government lawyers (prosecutor) to weave a tale.

While most government lawyers are interested only in finding the truth and seeing that justice is done, some are interested in advancing their careers. With this in mind, the tale that they weave might not be the truth. Giving that type of government lawyer less to work with means a better chance of being found not guilty

 

[saturno_v]

and 7 rounds of 9mm vs 5 rounds of 38 special seems like a wash

5 rounds of 38 Special vs. 13 rounds (12 + 1) of 9 mm +P in my Kel-Tec P-11 pocket piece is NOT a wash....

 

[ArmedBear]

True.

I'd trust a 5-round J-Frame to actually fire 5 rounds...

 

[L-Frame]

Like I stated earlier, I carry my wheelgun because I believe the chances are greater that a semi-auto will fail in some way, than the chances that I will run out of ammo with my 5 or 6 shot revolvers in a fight. Just my opinion.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I'd trust a 5-round J-Frame to actually fire 5 rounds...

And I trust my Kimber Classic .45 to actually fire all 8 rounds in the magazine, plus the one in the chamber -- and have plenty of shooting experience to back that trust up. And it will fire all 8 rounds in the spare mag, after a quick reload.

 

[ArmedBear]

Your Kimber Classic isn't exactly a P-11, though...

The thread is about pocket guns, I think, where revolvers still have a level of excellence that semiautos haven't reached.

WRT a full-sized gun, my .45 will go 14 without reloading. It's reliable as hell, too. But it's no pocket gun.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

While I admit to occasionally dropping a Colt Detective Special in my pocket, I generally carry any gun in an IWB -- cleaner for the gun, and better access.

 

[ArmedBear]

I can fastdraw a 642 from my pocket holster (DeSantis Nemesis).

I've never found concealed IWB to offer better access. Not even close.

When driving, I often pull the whole Nemesis out and stuff it between the seat and center console. This also allows extremely quick access.

That said, I'd rather shoot .45 ACP than .38 Special, if all other things were equal.

So many options, so many tradeoffs.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I notice, however, that of all the "practical" shooting games, none of them involve drawing and shooting from a pocket holster. And so far as I know, no serious competitor in any such sport chooses to use a pocket holster.

 

[saturno_v]

Armedbear

Never had any jamming issue with my P-11 right out of the box and with any ammo and any brands I tried, FMJ, HP, etc....

Revolvers can have their own issues too.

Like with any defense handgun (semi or wheelie) you cannot trust them out of the box...fire several boxes of a variety of ammo before trusting them with your life (testing accuracy, malfunctioning, etc..)

And make sure to use always the same defense ammo your handgun is proven to like...

I trust my P-11 to fire all of its 13 rounds in a flash and, as Vern H said, fire another 12 in a quick reload of my spare magazine.

Who told you that a Kel-Tec cannot be as reliable as a Kimber?? Did you have any direct or observed experience??

Said that, I agree overall with the old adage about a pocket gun....if you cannot get the job done in 5 rounds you better run away....

I may get a snubnose 357 or 38+ one day just for fun..I like them....

 

[ArmedBear]

I can hold my revolver in my pocket, and nobody knows I have a gun in my hand. A guy slouching with his hands in his pockets doesn't get noticed, either.

If necessary, the first thing an armed assailant will see of my gun is muzzle flash. That's a hell of a tactical advantage in a real-world situation like a robbery, carjacking or the like.

That simply isn't possible with concealed IWB carry.

That has no analogue in "practical" shooting games, and the quotes are quite apt.

 

[wrs840]

Guys, I apologize to everyone.

Since the title of the thread is:

"For self-defense shooting, the revolver has been surpassed, EXCEPT..."

And since every post in the thread prior to my first post in the thread was weighing revolver vs. auto...

I made an assumption that everyone would understand that my "LEO friend" was simply presenting one point to consider in favor of revolvers when weighing revolver vs. auto for SD carry. Perhaps I was insufficiently clear on that, and that's possibly what set some folks off, and if so, I apologize.

Les

 

[saturno_v]

can hold my revolver in my pocket, and nobody knows I have a gun in my hand. A guy slouching with his hands in his pockets doesn't get noticed, either.

If necessary, the first thing an armed assailant will see of my gun is muzzle flash. That's a hell of a tactical advantage in a real-world situation like a robbery, carjacking or the like.

Same here

My P-11 stays always in my pocket with its Uncle Mike's pocket holster...

Basically it doesn't print any differently than a blackberry....I use it in my business attire, summer shorts, etc....

I could not conceal it only if I was going around in my underwear but I never do.....

 

[ArmedBear]

And make sure to use always the same defense ammo your handgun is proven to like...

Another reason to use a revolver... There's no need to do this. Sure, you need to be choosy if you want target-grade accuracy. But in a pinch, you can stuff any to-spec ammo in a revolver and it will work. I have never had any ammo-related failures in a revolver, except if a round was actually defective. That's a LOT of revolvers, and a LOT of ammo of all kinds, not just one.

It doesn't have to "like" ammo in the way a semiauto does. It doesn't care if you load snake shot (for snakes), LSWCs and JHPs in the same cylinder. And if the ammo drops in cleanly, you don't have to test it to know it will fire, either.

I'm not saying revolvers can't have problems. They can, of course. And ammo can be junk.

But your advice is semiauto-specific.

 

[saturno_v]

But your advice is semiauto-specific.

Up to a point...I heard of several issues especially in new lightweight pocket revolvers (cylinder binding for example)...the old snubbies were built like tanks and they fired the very low pressure 38 Special standars...in this era of cutting production cost is different...

But you are right that on average, revolvers are more reliable than semi if you do not know previously how that particular gun behave...for example, if you hand me 2 handguns that I'm not familiar with for defense, one is a revolver and the other is a semi..I would trust the revolver more...

My P-11 (and several other semis) do not have problem mixing ammo...but it could be an issue, as general principle.

For defense purpose (humans or dogs) I do not really see the need to mixing ammo....pick the best JHP your can can fire and that's it....9 mm or 38 Spl do not have enough steam for anything else anyway....I would never get in the woods with my P-11....

However the semis are more at disadvantage if you get a dud during firing....there is a need to manually cycle the semi while you just keep squeezing the trigger in a revolver......a defective weak round, if the bullet leaves the barrel (if it doesn't, it's trouble for both) may create a cycling issue in a semi where the revolver doesn't have that problem...however in a well designed and built semi, these are fraction of a second problems....

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Another reason to use a revolver... There's no need to do this. Sure, you need to be choosy if you want target-grade accuracy. But in a pinch, you can stuff any to-spec ammo in a revolver and it will work. I have never had any ammo-related failures in a revolver, except if a round was actually defective. That's a LOT of revolvers, and a LOT of ammo of all kinds, not just one.

It doesn't have to "like" ammo in the way a semiauto does. It doesn't care if you load snake shot (for snakes), LSWCs and JHPs in the same cylinder. And if the ammo drops in cleanly, you don't have to test it to know it will fire, either.

And that's different from an automatic, how?

I can shoot 185gr semi-wadcutters, 200 grain semi-wadcutters, cast 230 grain round noses, and several brands of factory ammo through my Kimber without a bobble. I also can shoot snake loads. No problem.

With any handgun, you need ammo that is both reliable and shoots to the sights. For defensive use, you use ammo that is tested both for reliability and terminal effect. Regardless of what style handgun you use.

 

[saturno_v]

With any handgun, you need ammo that is both reliable and shoots to the sights. For defensive use, you use ammo that is tested both for reliability and terminal effect. Regardless of what style handgun you use.

Amen to that!!

 

[pinkymingeo]

You boys can talk all the trash you like, but when Bertha clears leather everybody, and I mean everybody downrange puts up their hands and says "Sir".

 

[ArmedBear]

For defensive use, you use ammo that is tested both for reliability and terminal effect. Regardless of what style handgun you use.

How many people have you shot with the ammo you keep in your gun?

I haven't shot any, myself, not with my semi ammo and not with my revolver ammo. It's damned hard to find volunteers.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

How many people have you shot with the ammo you keep in your gun?

I shot two with the ammo I used in my .357 -- and neither one asked for his money back.

The ammunition I carry in my .45 is used by several police and military agencies, and has a very good reputation among them.

But if actually shooting someone is your criterion, how can you enter the argument if you've never shot anyone?

 

[ArmedBear]

I should elaborate. Obviously, I was kidding about that, but I had a point somewhere in there...

Someone in the rifle forum claims to be a cop who was involved in a situation where 2 .45ACP HST rounds just bounced off someone's head.

Not sure if I believe it, but it makes me think that I don't know WHAT to believe unless I see it for myself.

What .357 ammo, BTW? Having no such volunteers, I'd love to know what you used on yours.

 

[OregonJohnny]

I skipped to the end. The OP says in one sentence that the autoloader has surpassed the revolver in concealed carry, then later says the revolver still surpasses the autoloader when it comes to pocket guns. Keep in mind that A LOT of CHL holders use a pocket gun as their primary, or even their only CCW. And a HUGE percentage of those pocket guns are probably j-frame or similar revolvers. So I would say that the "duty weapon" category is the only one that is clearly, without a doubt, dominated by autoloaders. Home defense, range, and CCW categories could be debated equally by either side.

 

[kmrcstintn]

just my observation...

since we have folks from both sides of this never ending and often tedious discussion...it would have been better to post in the "handguns general discussion" section; since it deals with both semiautomatics and revolvers!!!

thank you for letting me rant!!!

 

[Sixgun fanatic]

I like autos, but I carry my S&W model 60 most often

I agree that modern autos are very reliable. That being said it is still recommended to fire 2-300 rounds of your self defense load before carrying. I own autos but most often end up carrying my 3" adjustable sighted S&W model 60 with 135 grain gold dot +p hp's. I prefer revolvers for the following reasons: 1-Grips can be chosen that fit your hand better than an auto. 2-No need to test fire self defense ammo for reliablity (great for times when ammo is scarce and expensive). 3- If you have to push the barrel of your gun into an attacker at close quarters the gun will fire, autos get pushed out of battery which causes a failure to fire. Autos are faster to reload, but with practice & speedloaders a revolver can be reloaded pretty quickly. I'm not saying revolvers are superior, or that I never carry an auto I'm just more of a fan of wheelguns. 

 

[StrikeFire83]

I skipped to the end. The OP says in one sentence that the autoloader has surpassed the revolver in concealed carry, then later says the revolver still surpasses the autoloader when it comes to pocket guns. Keep in mind that A LOT of CHL holders use a pocket gun as their primary, or even their only CCW. And a HUGE percentage of those pocket guns are probably j-frame or similar revolvers. So I would say that the "duty weapon" category is the only one that is clearly, without a doubt, dominated by autoloaders. Home defense, range, and CCW categories could be debated equally by either side.

Okay, yes, and that was what I was trying to get at in the original post. In a DUTY size weapon, 4 inch barrel, which many people do concealed carry, I'd rather carry my Glock 17 with a boatload more ammo on tap. I personally have 8,000 rounds through this gun, and am totally convinced at its reliability. But I can only conceal my Glock with an IWB holster and a baggy un-tucked shirt, ie polo, bowling shirt, etc. I don't know about yall, but due to hot weather, work, and social situations it is often not possible for me to dress this way, and as such I cannot always carry my Glock. Often I can't.

Seeing as how I'm not totally convinced about the reliability of my PM9, I don't feel comfortable pocket carrying it yet. So, the S&W 638 gets pocket carried when I need to carry in a pocket.

And for those of you who can fit a Glock 26 in your pocket, you wear baggier pants then I.