For self-defense shooting, the revolver has been surpassed, EXCEPT...

[ArmedBear]

But I can only conceal my Glock with an IWB holster and a baggy un-tucked shirt, ie polo, bowling shirt, etc. I don't know about yall, but due to hot weather, work, and social situations it is often not possible for me to dress this way, and as such I cannot always carry my Glock. Often I can't.

Seeing as how I'm not totally convinced about the reliability of my PM9, I don't feel comfortable pocket carrying it yet. So, the S&W 638 gets pocket carried when I need to carry in a pocket.

Exactly.

That was my point about "practical" shooting competition vs. pocket holsters, too. Sure, top competitors don't use pocket holsters. They also wear clothes optimized for drawing quickly from whatever setup they need to comply with "from concealment". There's no rule that says you have to wear clothes you could wear to a meeting with an important client, or while working out, or whatever.

With a pocket holster, I can have the gun in the same place, and deploy it in the same way, whether I'm wearing cargo shorts and going to Lowes, or a suit and going to a theater.

I can put on a rain jacket and still draw it in exactly the same way.

If I put on a long coat, I can stick the pocket holster in the coat pocket, and still draw it in the same way.

That means no fumbling under stress. It means I can keep the gun concealed until I'm ready to fire, without moving my shirt up out of the way or drawing any attention to myself. It means I can ALWAYS have the gun, no matter what I'm wearing. It means the gun will always be in the same place, and the same muscle memory will apply.

That IWB holster might be ideal if you're wearing the specific clothes that are optimized for it. But if it gets cold and starts raining, and you put on a layer and a shell, you've just restricted access to your gun. Put on a long coat, and you've downright buried it.

...which brings me to another "impractical" part of defensive shooting that can't ever be replicated in "practical" shooting competition.

You don't know when or if you might have to use the gun. You might be hot and tired from a day laying tarpaper on the roof, and going to the hardware store for some more nails. You might be dressed up for the theater. You might be on the way to the gym.

If you draw attention to yourself in a group of people during an armed robbery or other attack, you may get a couple bullets in you. If you lift your shirt and expose a gun, you're likely to get a whole magazine. The armed assailant will ALREADY HAVE his gun out, finger on the trigger.

Those are some reasons I figure that real-world routine carry by civilians has a list of criteria and concerns that are different from carry by cops, and from any competition I know of.

 

[David E]

I can fastdraw a 642 from my pocket holster (DeSantis Nemesis).

The word "fastdraw" is vague and overused on gun forums. After all, it seems that everyone online that owns a gun has a "fast draw".......... 99% of these folks don't know how fast their "fast draw" really is.......only that it is fast.

So, I ask you, how fast is yours? Starting with hand on gun, in pocket, reacting to a start signal, how fast can you pull it out and fire one shot on an IPSC target @ 5 yds, "C" zone or better?

How fast is it when you start with your hand outside the pocket?

I've never found concealed IWB to offer better access. Not even close.

Really? How is the access/speed drawing from your pocket rig while seated? How about drawing the gun with your weak hand only? (if you carry in the front pocket, you're really SOL on that one)

When driving, I often pull the whole Nemesis out and stuff it between the seat and center console. This also allows extremely quick access.

It only allows "extremely quick access" if it's still in the same place it was to start with, and that nothing got put on top of it. In 1986, some FBI agents anticipating a gunfight drew their gun and put it on the car seat for "quick access." That is, until they crashed their cars into the suspect vehicle, sending their gun to places unknown. (They immediately had to go to their backup J frame on their ankle.) The reason they did this was that they did not have enough confidence to make a draw under pressure.

Pocket carry certainly has its place, but it certainly has its share of disadvantages.

 

[David E]

my "LEO friend" was simply presenting one point to consider in favor of revolvers when weighing revolver vs. auto for SD carry.

Duly considered.............and duly dismissed !

 

[MCgunner]

Too many people just leave empty autoloader casings littered around in random places, and that is a selfish/careless/disrespectful habit.

Oh, contrare, bite your tongue! I very much appreciate those folks and am only too happy to police their brass for them. For GOD'S sake, throw that .45 colt, .357 Mag, and .38 brass on the ground, too, would ya, PALEEEEEEASE!

 

[.38 Special]

A while back there was a fellow dumping his .500 S&W brass onto the ground. He was even stepping on it and kicking it out into the dirt. After he left I practically dove in after it. I don't even own a .500, but at 50 cents per case I couldn't just let it lie there.

I suppose I have to buy a .500 now...

 

[ArmedBear]

How is the access/speed drawing from your pocket rig while seated?

Terrible. IWB is no better, and unless I'm wearing clothes specifically optimized for IWB draw, it's worse. Since I have to wear normal clothes for a normal life, and temperatures change around here, that means it's worse.

See my post above.

It only allows "extremely quick access" if it's still in the same place it was to start with, and that nothing got put on top of it.

When I say "stuff" I mean "stuff". It doesn't move. That's why I put it there.

 

[David E]

IWB is no better, and unless I'm wearing clothes specifically optimized for IWB draw, it's worse. Since I have to wear normal clothes for a normal life, and temperatures change around here, that means it's worse.

Then I'm curious about your experience in CCW and what gun you're carrying in what brand of IWB holster, as I've not had those problems. Oddly enough, I also wear normal clothes where temperatures change...

I note you side-stepped the "how fast are you" question...

 

[ArmedBear]

Never been timed. Don't have a timer. Don't shoot IDPA. Probably wouldn't use that gun if I did. Can't answer the question accurately.

Am quite aware of what "fastdraw" means, though.

Then I'm curious about your experience in CCW and what gun you're carrying in what brand of IWB holster, as I've not had those problems. Oddly enough, I also wear normal clothes where temperatures change...

When seated, especially in your car?

In what position do you carry the gun?

Do you tuck your shirt into your pants? ("Normal" doesn't mean fat-guy-style Hawaiian shirt.) Use an additional cover garment?

 

[MCgunner]

You can draw from the pocket quicker than IWB in some ways considering you can walk along with your hand in your pocket on the gun and no one will notice. But, quick target aquisition and accurate shooting is more important.

 

[ArmedBear]

You can draw from the pocket quicker than IWB in some ways considering you can walk along with your hand in your pocket on the gun and no one will notice. But, quick target aquisition and accurate shooting is more important.

In a situation where concealment is a tactical advantage, IMO that's quite true. Hair stands up on back of neck, hand goes in pocket.

Obviously, hitting the target matters. I've done okay at that, when I've been timed. Won a charity match the first time I was timed (5 12" plates at 8 yards in the 3s as I recall). I've done some Bullseye and some one-handed can bouncing for fun, and I can use the gun one-handed fine, too.

What I am more worried about than my ability to shoot a man-sized target at near-contact range is my ability to keep my head straight when staring down a gun barrel or at a big knife. Can't say what I'd do, unless it happens (hopefully not).

I can get the gun out quickly and unobtrusively, I can acquire a target well enough for the task in question. I sure don't think I'm the best shooter ever, but that's not the part I have major doubts about.

Can I perform as I have to when I'm scared ****less? I'd be a liar if I said I knew.

IWB, or the best OWB holster in the world, wouldn't make me any better or worse at that part.

 

[David E]

Am quite aware of what "fastdraw" means, though.

Everyone else thinks they know what it means, too. The problem is, it means different things to different people. For example, you may think that 3 seconds to react, draw and fire a first shot (on target) is "fast," whilst others would be on their second magazine by then.

Quote:
Then I'm curious about your experience in CCW and what gun you're carrying in what brand of IWB holster, as I've not had those problems. Oddly enough, I also wear normal clothes where temperatures change...

When seated, especially in your car?

In what position do you carry the gun?

Do you tuck your shirt into your pants? ("Normal" doesn't mean fat-guy-style Hawaiian shirt.) Use an additional cover garment?

Yes, while seated.

I carry in a KyTac BraveHeart at about 3:30. Right now, it's a 4" Compact Kimber .45, but I've been known to carry an all steel, fullsize 1911 Govt, as well.

My outter shirts are not Hawaiian and blend in very well. Other times, I use a Polo shirt with a banded hem. If I had to go "shirt and tie," I would use the KyTac tuckable or the 5.11 holster shirt.

In all cases, I'd have a much more serious gun/caliber than a 5-shot .38 snubby.

And I challenge the speculation that a pocket holster is faster to draw from than a good IWB, especially if the start is hand off gun. If you get to start with your hand on the pocketed gun, then I'd get to start with mine on my gun. There were many times as a cop I had my hand on my gun and the suspect had no clue, so it's a valid comparison.

I've happened to time that draw (hand on gun in IWB rig) and it was .39 from reacting to the start signal and hitting the target.

Granted, you can walk around all day with your hand on your gun without attracting attention while I could not, but that's not necessarily a good thing. (you may need gunless hand quickly, say, to keep your toddler from going off the curb in front of the bus)

Now, before dismiss the .39 time, there's a key factor to keep in mind: I'm reacting to the beep, so my reaction time is included in the .39 time frame. Typically, my reaction time to an impending start signal is .18-.20, which means it takes me less than .25 second to draw and fire if I were to self-start.

Why is this important to know? If you can get the badguy to talk to you and you make
your move while he is in mid-sentence, it typically would take him at least .75 to stop talking, recognize something is happening and decide how to react to it. If my first shot is .25, second shot at .40, 3rd shot at .55, 4th shot at .75, the badguy has 4 shots in him before he even realizes something is wrong. (for him)

This is for a scenario where an unabated, all out application of deadly force is required. It's not about threat management.

Bill Jordan, in "No Second Place Winner," covered a similar topic regarding fast draw speed
where someone was killed before the deadman could even get his gun out of his holster. He proved how fast a draw could be done in court to help exonerate his friend.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Whoa!! Not every semi auto comes out of the box "10,000 round reliable". That is kind of a gun to gun thing, being broken in and verified by the owner that it IS reliable for him/her, with the ammo they have chosen for it. Sure, the current breed of semi-autos are far better than they were 30 years ago, but all machines need to be broken in, and run awhile before we say they run just FINE! Revolvers sometimes get "reliable" before semi autos. Keep It Simple Stupid also applies to the simplicity of revolvers. They demand less of the shooter as far as training/familiarization that autos, so they will continue to be the choice for many who do not have the time nor the desire to apply themselves to the manual of arms for semi-autos.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Try this -- hand the average man in the street an automatic with a "jam" -- say a typical stove pipe, and then a revolver with a typical jam -- say crud under the ejector star. See which one he can put into action faster. Then ask him to do a fast reload -- given a spare loaded magazine for the automatic, and a speed loader for the revolver.

 

[sw282]

I am new to HR. Not new to guns. My Uncle Sam introduced them to me at Ft Jackson in the mid 60s. My association ended in 1994. With a reunion in Iraq 2004. I love guns. ALL guns -from cap pistols to Railroad guns. Handguns at the present are my current interest.I own Maybe 30 handguns. Pistols and revolvers. From most Makers except Glock and Ruger. I shoot all of them regularly.
In almost 40 years of handgun shooting I have seen revolvers fail to function Three times. Each because of a handload error.
With autoloaders I have had them ALL fail to function. With handloads and factory ammo. My most reliable autos are a Beretta 92 Compact-Colt Govt Model Series 70-Walther PP-Sig232. My Uncle made me use a 1911 and M9. Altho I got to choose my own in Iraq which was a Sig P225. I have loaded handguns scattered thru the house. The one that is closest to me is a SW MODEL 15 2". Its loaded w/158gr swc Remington. I dont feel undergunned or underammode with 6 rounds.

 

[Marvin KNox]

VERN,

I've never had a revolver jam from "crud under the ejector". And I carried and shot a Ruger single six for years in Alaska. I plinked for hrs. on end when between flights out in the villages. .22 ammo was quite cheap back then. I put more rounds through that revolver than most people would ever do.

I never cleaned the revolver as long as I owned it. I just shoved it back under the seat of the plane until the next time. I carried and shot it in -70 degree winters and 90 degree summers. It never jammed once for any reason.

I suppose if I had to stop a charge by a hopped up ptarmigan I'da cleaned it occasionally. I just never got around to it. Lazy I guess.

In fact I've never had a revolver jam, clean or not. Heard of it. Just never had one jam.

I've had misfires with reloads. I just pulled the trigger and they always went bang on the next hammer fall. I'm just lucky I guess.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

VERN,

I've never had a revolver jam from "crud under the ejector". And I carried and shot a Ruger single six for years in Alaska.

That's "crud under the ejector star." The Ruger Single-Six, being a solid frame, single action revolver, does not have an ejector star.

 

[General Geoff]

Crud under the ejector star is more likely to keep the cylinder from closing at all, than to bind it up between shots...

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Crud under the ejector star is more likely to keep the cylinder from closing at all, than to bind it up between shots...

Not always -- stick with these forums and you'll read many instances of revolvers "mysteriously" binding up in the middle of a cylinder full.

 

[Marvin KNox]

VERN,

I'll take your word on that. It's been a long time.

I didn't know a lot about the gun except that it had a spare magnum cylinder that I never used and it shot the heads of Ptarmigan when I did my part.

 

[m2steven]

I carry both my 642 and my Kahr PM9. I consider both to be 100 percent reliable. I love both guns, but the 642 is not a range gun. It beats my hand to death. Thing is, is very accurate and if recoil were a bit more manageable - it would be a blast to shoot for serious (as serious as a < 2 in ch barrel can be) target work.