Discussion in 'Handguns: Revolvers' started by Kleanbore, Oct 17, 2020.
Why shoot SA?
Two-handed shooting is the technique du jour. If you watch some old WW II training films you'll see they were trained to shoot their pistols one-handed using what looks like an extreme Weaver stance with strong side forward. I'm not saying which is better; I think it depends on the shooter.
?? Sorry - don't understand the question?? Why not?? Manipulating your firearm single-handed or two-handed you have to be able to use its full functionality. Why prefer SA over DA? Is that the question? I didn't mean to imply that. DA is faster shooting, so that would be preferred if rapid-fire is required. If accuracy is required and the shooter hits better with SA, then that would be preferred. And frankly, that depends on the gun, too, and its trigger pull.
If I could go from the start again, my first handgun will be TC Contender in 22LR, certainly no more than 357 Magnum, but you want to start reloading. Contender is accurate like rifle, it will tech newbie how shoot accurately. Once newbie learns that, it's much easier to master other handguns. Used Contender is not expensive, almost always in top condition, and once not needed, you can always sell it, in most cases no money lost.
I would think most would agree, shooting two handed is the preferred way to go, but I think its also a good idea, to be well versed with two hands, one hand, weak hand, whatever.
Then again, a lot of people have different ideas of what shooting is, and I think a lot of times, we talk past each other making assumptions as to what shooting is.
I think the mistake made by many about DA shooting is, that its inaccurate, or you cant be accurate shooting that way, which a far from the truth.
Its not the gun, or the trigger, that might make it inaccurate, as with most things shooting wise, its the shooter, and their lack of skills with the gun, thats generally the problem.
Is that GP hammerleas half lug?
[Kleanbore] I use two hands on my bigger guns with longer barrels which is what he's shooting in the video's. My carry gun is smaller with a 1.8" barrel, I don't find any difference in accuracy with two hands with it, or the .38spl, which is also a 1.8" barrel. I do find a difference with the .357 that has a 5 inch barrel and the heaver 44 that has a 7.5" barrel. Not sure I could shoot the 44 with one hand.
I usually shoot revolvers better DA with one hand, though I haven't tried with anything more powerful than .357 Magnum. I do SA better two-handed because cocking the hammer single-handed moves the gun enough to lose the sight picture by quite a bit in between rounds. Maybe more practice will help improve.
I started out shooting revolvers one handed, and in single action mode, slowly.
Back in the day, all photos showing target shooters competing with DA revolvers showed them standing upright and cocking the hammer. That was the basis of my inspiration.
I read Ed McGivern's Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting decades ago, and I put him in what we might today call the Miculek category--far better than average.
I tried DA shooting one handed, but I wasn't very good at it. I did not practice much.
When police departments started to promote shooting the revolver double action some decades ago, many of the training films showed one-handed shooting from a crouch.
When I first availed myself of good defensive pistol training, we used semi-autos; we used a two-handed grip (and an isosceles stance); we worked to achieve a balance of speed and precision, shooting rapidly at shorter distances than my old revolver target days.
I'm not at at all sure that I could do as well in those training drills with a revolver as I can with a semi-auto, primarily due to differences in the trigger. But I am sure that I would do it the same way--just as shown in the video.
Think of double action revolver shooting like single action with a little "foreplay"!
Find target, align sights, begin trigger press, during the press perfect the sight picture. Practice this a few thousand times and you'll never go back to single action revolver shooting.
If you think DAO is slower than S/A ask Jerry Michalek!
S/A vs. DAO: I shoot in a local practical pistol league where we shoot multiple targets at different yardages Usually 48 rounds. Each stage has a par time geared to "beginning" and "intermediate" skill levels. After 10 matches my revolver and semi-auto scores are nearly identical. Usually first, second or third!
Yes, I think this is the key, and I was never taught this by my instructor, it was something I learned on my own by practice and observation.
First off, I am not a new revolver shooter, I have been shooting them for over 40 years, long before I owned any semi-auto pistols. By the way, how come the term auto-loader is not used anymore?
Why do I shoot a double action revolver single action style? Because it is more accurate. End of that story.
I do not carry, I just don't, let's not go there.
But I think I will try to follow the examples in the video next time I am at the range. Like most shooters, I find shooting a double action revolver single action style to be more accurate. I do want pin point accuracy, and I am concerned with group size. The only 'action shooting' I do is Cowboy Action, and that is all done with single action revolvers. At a CAS match I am not so much concerned with group size, I am just trying to get all my hits on the target. I am not one of the fast CAS shooters, my stages could be timed with a sundial on a sunny day, but still, I take the time to make sure every shot hits the target, unlike the super fast shooters who often miss 1 or 2 out of ten shots (two pistols).
What I found most interesting about the video is the instructor told the student to place his finger on the trigger so the trigger rested in the crease under the first joint. I have ALWAYS striven to pull a pistol trigger with the pad of the finger under the fingernail, rather than the crease under the joint, because I firmly believe it is easier to get a pull straight back by placing the trigger there than in the crease.
Anyway, next time I am at the range I think I will try to use the techniques shown in the video and see how well I do. Currently, when I shoot a revolver double action I spray the bullets all over the target. If I can use those techniques and still hit soup cans at the 25 yard berm, that would be interesting.
Another example of training du jour. I think since instructors are certified by the NRA and teach methods they're taught in the NRA Instructor course, they're all going to teach the same methods. Standardization is a good thing, I do believe (having been an instructor in another field long ago), but what doesn't come across to the student is that the method he or she is taught is not necessarily the ONLY right way.
Proper trigger finger placement is VERY dependent on the individual AND on the firearm being shot. A one method fits all approach is simply not going to produce the best possible result.
Training is important, etc. etc. etc.
But I think at this point it might be enlightening to
mention Lt. Bob Stasch of the Chicago PD. He
was involved in 14 gunfights, only two or three of
which he recalls using two hands to hold his
weapon. He also didn't recall really looking at
his sights. His kill rate is impressive.
For his record and an interview with him, I recommend
Googling Bob Stasch on You Tube for an hour long
We have a local CCW trainer who is always admonishing folks to shoot faster. "I don't want to see tight little groups on your targets. I want to see every hole in the kill zone, but I want you to do it as fast as you can. If you're making tight little groups you are not going fast enough!"
I agree with the basic sentiment, but I also see a lot more "going too fast" than "not going fast enough". I think the ability to make tight little groups has to come before the ability to make adequate hits at high speed. Otherwise you end up with all those holes in the ceiling at the local CCW trainer's range.
Great thread with informative video, thanks Kleanbore.
The three revolvers I would use for self-defense are always used DA (one is DAO anyhow). I prefer to practice the way I'd use them.
However my Colt OMM is too large for my small hands/fingers to effectively reach the trigger in DA, so it is used only in SA for some very enjoyable target shooting.
My first revolver that I started carrying for defensive purposes at age 14 was an Enfield .38 S&W DAO. I am not sure there could be a better gun for developing trigger squeeze technique.
I think Wyatt Earp's "... take your time in a hurry..." statement is the key to effective defensive shooting.
One of the things I like about shooting is that, no matter what a jumble your head and life may be in, at the moment you feel the trigger on your finger, the whole world focusses down to This Gun. Shooting. Now.
You're right, it's a good trainer for basic focusing skills.
I wish someone would explain the pros and cons of the weird shooting stances you see in old training films.
Such as the police training films where they shoot by suddenly squatting down and jutting their strong hand out. It looks strange today, but there must be some reason they did that.
I'm still trying to figure out why guys dip their heads to meet the sights, instead of just holding the gun a little higher. Is there an advantage to craning your neck instead of "craning" your shoulders?
This sounds like a good tip, and I'm going to do it.
Plus, if there is any gun that the panic buyers are ignoring, it's got to be a Contender. I hope.
But Jerry says the opposite about grips: he said in one video that he wants them smooth and slick and wooden so your hand doesn't get locked into a bad position.
I'm just bringing this up because I followed his advice, put slick wooden panel grips on my revolvers, and instantly solved my bad gripping issues. I know that 94 percent of guys prefer the sticky bumpy rubbery grips, so maybe I should keep looking for ones that work, but I've pretty much given up on them.
This is the "Jelly Bryce" stance. He was an Oklahoma City police officer, and became the deadliest FBI agent ever. This was his natural shooting style, and he taught it to the FBI. "The FBI crouch". Personally, I never liked it, and it simply ain't right for me at all.
Of course, I'm one of those weird ones who most certainly will be killed because I actually thumb cock hammers....
Answer, the FBI. That's how it trained its agents to make
themselves "smaller" targets while shooting their Model
10s one-handed. The crouch was all part of the 1950s/60s
training for a fast draw from the canted FBI hip holster. (No
shoulder holsters allowed.)
Note in the training film that started this thread how the
shooter, Pincus, "presents" his gun from about shoulder high and
the two-handed hold. The FBI taught point shooting for
close-in near contact distances where the gun sometimes
never goes higher than slightly above the hip.
Border Patrol agent Bill Jordan (some say the father of the
Model 19 Smith) demonstrates in his book "No Second
Place Winner" the hip high style of shooting. He recommended
mostly one-handed shooting. He also demonstrates a
slight body dip at the knees while fast drawing. In post #48
it's mentioned that Miculek likes slick grips/stocks. Jordan
designed his own stocks for his huge hands and they were
slick See Herrett Stocks for the Jordan stocks.
In my earlier posting (#41) citing Chicago PD Lt. Bob Stasch, he
says one-handed because of the close confrontations and
often the other hand is busy pushing away an attacker
or holding some item like a flashlight.
Separate names with a comma.