Friend who doesn't want the Gov't to know

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jeepmor

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I've a friend who is absolutely adamant about not purchasing a gun through the normal background check channels for fear of 'The Man' coming and taking them some day. We got in an debate over it and I said, "curses, I'll just go buy one and gift it to you".

Having had some time to reconsider my position, I have changed my mind and have decided that I will not do this for based upon principles and the desire to keep my butt out of trouble should something bad ever happen regarding this transaction. I have not told him that I'm not buying him his hunting rifle this year and I know he's gonna be pretty PO'd at me for it.

I understand a person can still buy a gun from a private party or have it gifted from another person (like a passdown from elders or relatives). Is this correct? My FFL stated it something like this, but it sounds like a situation that I just don't want to get myself in the middle of. I'd be happy to help him locate one, but the transaction part is up to him, not me.

He comes from a family of non-hunters and is obviously overly paranoid about the government. I come from a family of hunters and am keeping an eye out for a used rifle that he can purchase privately. However, do you officially need to transfer it, do the background check and all that anyway?

I'm looking for some sound advice and usually get it here. Again, I don't wish to be the middle man in this type of activity and have only purchased new guns from the gunstores or FFL's, so I'm already on the list. No JBT's have come to my door yet either.

jeepmor
 
Having had some time to reconsider my position, I have changed my mind and have decided that I will not do this for based upon principles and the desire to keep my butt out of trouble should something bad ever happen regarding this transaction. I have not told him that I'm not buying him his hunting rifle this year and I know he's gonna be pretty PO'd at me for it.
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Tell him that you don't want to reveal his name under torture, therefore it would be better if he bought his guns from complete strangers.

Pilgrim
 
Buy something made before 1899. There are 8mm Mausers made before that date and you can buy black powder rifles and revolvers all day long.

Don't let your friend cause you both grief. I'd not be buying anything for them anytime soon.
 
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If he has guns already and shoots at a "open to the public" range or a club, then he is on a list of some sort.

-Bill
 
Let him buy his own guns. You're being used. How would you feel if he wanted you to purchase a car for him so as to limit his liability in case of an accident? Not a good deal. There are plenty of private parties to buy from, if your state allows it. If your state doesn't allow it, you're breaking the law by transferring to him without paperwork. Maybe you should help him rob the local 7-11 to prove your friendship? :banghead: :cuss:

(In case ya can't tell, people with this kind of attitude get me more than a little steamed. Parasite is too nice a term for them.)
 
He might be hiding from you that he's got a felony conviction or criminal record....I know a few bow hunters that poo-poo gun hunting, found out later they had previous criminal records.
 
I've heard stuff like this before.

So he thinks it's better that the gov't thinks you own 100 guns and he owns none?!?!? Not a real friend, especially if he believe his own BS.

Is he legal to own a gun? I would worry that he might not be and you could be in a world of hurt!

I'm also of the opinion that if we all stop buying from dealers then the dealers and makers will all go away and we will all lose.

I think your friend needs a bit of help, and not from you.
 
I have not told him that I'm not buying him his hunting rifle this year and I know he's gonna be pretty PO'd at me for it.
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If I didn't know any better I'd say that statement looks a lot like "I have told him that I'm not committing the felony of a "straw purchase" for him this year..."


If you go to a gun dealer and buy a gun for him (so he doesn't have to fill out the 4473) that is a straw purchase. Even if he's not prohibited by law from owning firearms.

Don't do it.

If you buy a gun with your money and just give it to him as a gift then you're fine. If you buy a gun and later sell it to him you're fine.

Ya know, if he's paranoid enough to not want to fill out a 4473 and do a NICS check but he has no problem with you putting yourself on this future gun confiscation goon squad's list for him then he's a hell of a friend eh? :scrutiny:


Give the boy a newspaper and let him find his own private seller. As far as I know, Oregon isn't one of the few states that require private sellers to go through an FFL.



What will be funny is if after all this hoop jumping he walks into Sportsman's Wearhouse (or someplace like that) and buys a few boxes of ammo with a credit card [insert evil laugh]
(if the fed.gov is compiling lists of doors to kick down when they decide to revoke the 2A, I guarantee you that credit card transactions for anything firearm related will put you on that list just as fast as a 4473).
 
Having had some time to reconsider my position, I have changed my mind and have decided that I will not do this for based upon principles and the desire to keep my butt out of trouble should something bad ever happen regarding this transaction.
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A very sound decision. As noted by others, this is a straw purchase. You would be putting your gun rights, among others, in jeopardy as well as fines and jail time.

I have not told him that I'm not buying him his hunting rifle this year and I know he's gonna be pretty PO'd at me for it.
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If you were to go through with the straw purchase, not only would you be in trouble, but so would he. Just tell him if he doesn't want any government sctrutiny, the sale is a no-go.
 
Thanks fellas

I knew my logic was correct and sound. I just like to sound off and hear some opinions. All of the opinions and advice were as I suspected and I thank you all for them.

Okay, maybe his paranoia level is higher than mine and maybe some of you think it is legitimate. I honestly wonder myself sometimes and do foster a great deal of contempt for our government doing anything for me as a constituent. However, I'm not going to let it control me to the point of wearing a tin hat simply because my name is put on some list. But if my name is on that list, it's there for my firearms only, no one elses.

Like one poster said, if you ever purchase ammo with anything but cash, you're on the list anyway.

So again, he's on his own and I'm not going to risk my RKBA and my freedom just because he won't take off the tin hat. He has stated repeatedly that he does not have a felony on his record, but I've only known him about 10 years. I guess I will find out this hunting season though won't I. Or he can borrow someone elses rifles for this season. Me, I have to go purchase my own and won't be getting any extra. One for me, one for my wife, that's plenty. And since my wife will be with us, he won't have the "I'll use hers since she's not hunting this year excuse."

I know this is going to just make him livid, but so be it. He's an adult. If he can't step up and be a man, that's not my issue. I will have to listen to it though, and it will be entertaining, trust me on that. We have physics arguements all the time and I've had him so mad at me that he wouldn't even talk to me on a drive up snowboarding. This one may top that. If he gets all frothy at the mouth from it, I'll share some commentary if I find it entertaining enough. I suspect it will be.

On that note, I have an old bolt .410 shotgun I want to gift to my nephew, no issues there....right?

jeepmor
 
If he gets all frothy at the mouth from it, I'll share some commentary if I find it entertaining enough. I suspect it will be.
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Meaning no offense, but if a "friend" of mine got "frothy at the mouth" over my refusal to purchase a firearm or loan him one, I'd think twice about being anywhere around him with a firearm and no witnesses. :eek:
 
Some states have no legal issues with transferring to another resident or family member... you are not required to run any form of background check through an FFL to sell a firearm. Most 'free' states have no such stipulations.

However, big brother 'does' know who has most of the guns in this country, and if you sell a gun to someone who kills someone, just be prepared to answer the questions that may arise... so if you have suspiscions, dont sell... he can buy any one of a million places if he's a felon anyways... probably cheaper too.
 
In (AFAIK) nearly all states, a ordinary rifle (not an "assault rifle") can be bought/sold on an individual basis without a dealer being involved as long as both parties are residents of the same state. But, in fact, if the authorities want to trace a firearm badly enough, they can probably do it.

I once had a situation a bit like that. A friend told me in strictest confidence that he had an M1 rifle that he didn't want the government to know about. I asked him how he acquired it, thinking he might have stolen it. Imagine my astonishment when he replied that he had bought it through DCM! But don't tell anyone I told you that or the government might find out.

Jim
 
_IF_ your state's laws do not require paperwork for FTF sales, _and_ you have no reason to believe he's a prohibited person, _and_ you're not comfortable with the transaction, _then_ there's no reason he can't toddle himself off and do a private 2nd hand sale just like everyone else.

And furthermore, EVERYONE should MAXIMALLY avail themselves of whatever means their state's laws provide them with to lawfully acquire at least one paperless (or minimally papered, depending on your state) armament.
 
tell him to just buy them privatly. So long as he does that there is no record.

Course then agian guns? Oh you mean these old things in my cabinate? No not those ones? Oh THOSE guns! Why I sold them quite awhile ago, 'fraid I can't remember the buyers names, I'm horrible with names. Yes that includes the one I bought last week I got bored with it pretty quick.
 
Lupinus, I hate to spoil your dreams, but let's try some hard facts. If the gun is at all new or recently imported, it can be traced to the first FFL, and then to the first buyer. When he comes up with the "I sold it" line, they will lean on him very, very hard, and it is 100 to 1 that he will suddenly "remember" who he sold the gun to. And so it will go, on down the line.

If a gun is used in a crime and can be traced to you, you have two choices - "remember" who you sold it to, or listen to the story about Mr. Miranda on charges of at least obstructing justice and impeding an investigation. If someone is really out for blood, and you don't "remember", it just might mean you still have the gun, or had it when it was used in the crime, and that is not good news at all.

Jim
 
If a gun is used in a crime and can be traced to you, you have two choices - "remember" who you sold it to, or listen to the story about Mr. Miranda on charges of at least obstructing justice and impeding an investigation.
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There is another option. Buy at least one gun a month, fire a box or two through it and then sell it or trade it. Let everyone know that is your standard MO.

They can gripe at you about not keeping records, but it's going to be hard for them to prove that you're obstructing justice because you can't remember the details of each and every one of the hundreds of gun transactions you've made in the last 10 years.

I've got a friend who immediately buys anything on the market that tickles his fancy and then almost as quickly loses interest and sells it (or gets tickled by something else and trades for it). He rarely owns more than one or two guns at a time although in any given year he might have owned 20 or more.

He doesn't do it to cover his tracks or protect those who buy/trade his guns--it's just the way he likes it.
 
wow, what a turnaround

And then came the advice from the other side.

It looks like it fairly easy and legal for me to purchase a gun, lose interest, then sell private party. However, having stated the intent of my friend regarding this transaction on a public forum has me saying grow up and get your own. If you don't want the government knowing, go find one on your own.:cuss:

I understand his position, but I simply don't agree with it. I don't see myself passing up the plethora of good pistols and rifles out there simply because my name will end up on a government database somewhere. I know the gov't isn't supposed to do that sort of thing, but they deny Area51 exists too, and the Russians have some pretty convincing pictures to the contrary. And my FFL had a story that convinced me otherwise also. Nothing clandestine mind you, just proof that they can and will dig up the data if they so choose.

I now realize how he is simply being lazy about the process. And as many have stated, if you're seen at a public range, or purchase ammo with a debit card, you're on the list anyway, probably on camera too.

I take the angle of my father's friend on the other end of the spectrum. He was just discussing last weekend how he got some of those exploding targets and how much fun they were. He then stated that they were so much fun that he decided to buy 100 of them so he had a "good stash." My brother in the Coast Guard (w/ LE background) stated; "You know you're on an FBI watchlist now don't you." To which Dad's friend stated, "I don't care, that boom is just too cool to pass up."

jeepmor
 
In (AFAIK) nearly all states, a ordinary rifle (not an "assault rifle") can be bought/sold on an individual basis without a dealer being involved as long as both parties are residents of the same state. But, in fact, if the authorities want to trace a firearm badly enough, they can probably do it.
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That is true in NY, anyway--FTF sale of a long gun between private individuals is legal (outside of NYC) with no paperwork. The catch (at least in my state) is that the seller is supposed to know somehow that the buyer is legally allowed to own a firearm, i.e. isn't a convicted felon and doesn't have a protection order against him. I guess you'd have to know the person pretty well or just take his word for it. If authorities want to trace a gun, they can trace it easily as far as the paper trail goes, which means up to the first such private FTF sale. Then it becomes hearsay and word-of-mouth.

I'd strongly advise against doing a straw purchase for anyone. Your friend's paranoia could land YOUR butt in jail.
 
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