spacemanspiff
Senior Member
i think i addressed this in an earlier post to this thread.
for the record i am not racist either. i know lots of white people.
Gangbangers in gun stores?
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Waitone
Member
Interesting thread and no, I don't think it is ugly. I think it realistically points out how we make judgement. No problem there, just human nature at work. I'm intrigued at those who want to dress in a manner that is not reflective of their particular socio-economic stratum. For what ever the reason the adopted statum is those strata wherein exists a perceived threat to "normal" people. Two example: gangsta and biker. Yea, I know all the arguments against drawing conclusions based on appearances. But I find interesting is I don't see anyone adopting the dress of the 70's as an alternative. So instead of baggie pants and a reverse mount ball cap why not wear a John Travolta disco suit. Would I be suspicious of anyone dressed like travolta browsing a gunshop? Not hardly because the there is no implied threat based on the clothes worn.
To me clothing is a first pass evaluation. For me the really serious evaluation comes when I get to take a hard look at the face. If I see a loose countenance or a smile or smile wrinkles I relax a little. If I see a tight, drawn face or worse, a dead fish, expressionless face, red lights go off.
A while back I was in a gunshop. Two or three clerks were present along with about 4 shopping customer. In walk 3 types dressed consistent with the banger or gangsta culture. Everyone in the shop was edgy. One of the clerks quietly asked me if I was packin' (yep). At that point I started moving to find a good angle. Everyone else in the shop was doing the same thing. Bottom line the new visitors were either underaged or were trying to set up a straw purchase. Anyhow, they left without incident. I distinctly remember the face on one guy. It was like looking at death. Vacant eyes, expressionless, no emotion.
To me clothing is a first pass evaluation. For me the really serious evaluation comes when I get to take a hard look at the face. If I see a loose countenance or a smile or smile wrinkles I relax a little. If I see a tight, drawn face or worse, a dead fish, expressionless face, red lights go off.
A while back I was in a gunshop. Two or three clerks were present along with about 4 shopping customer. In walk 3 types dressed consistent with the banger or gangsta culture. Everyone in the shop was edgy. One of the clerks quietly asked me if I was packin' (yep). At that point I started moving to find a good angle. Everyone else in the shop was doing the same thing. Bottom line the new visitors were either underaged or were trying to set up a straw purchase. Anyhow, they left without incident. I distinctly remember the face on one guy. It was like looking at death. Vacant eyes, expressionless, no emotion.
Kind of is I suppose as I guess a white south African immigrant would also be an African American. I had a friend who was German American who always liked to put he was Asian on 4473 forms just for the hell of it, no one ever questoned this blue eyed man about this either. His wife was Japanese though.AnthonyRSS said:
Manedwolf
member
IcebergDave said:
This can be seen at shows sometimes, too. A small group of teens and at least one early twentysomething (to buy) in oversized hoodies and gold, either looking around furtively or carrying the trademark "I'm an ***hole" scowl, examining the cheap Charter snubbies, or picking up a hi-point in the sideways gangbanger hold.
Of course, I made one poor Wally World sporting-goods clerk nervous by stopping in for a few boxes of 9mm after a business meeting, in what I'd been teased is my "German assassin" look, grey turtleneck, vintage small round glasses, mil-spec short blonde hair, and a slender black Hugo Boss leather dress coat and black dress gloves, so... .
Manedwolf said:Of course, I made one poor Wally World sporting-goods clerk nervous by stopping in for a few boxes of 9mm after a business meeting, in what I'd been teased is my "German assassin" look, grey turtleneck, vintage small round glasses, mil-spec short blonde hair, and a slender black Hugo Boss leather dress coat and black dress gloves, so... .
That reminds me of what happened to my uncle a few months ago. We were going to shoot after he got off work so he decided to pick up some ammo before work. He said the lady at the sporting-goods counter had a nervous look on her face the whole time. Probably because he was buying a few hundred 9mm rounds at 6am wearing his postal uniform.
Silent-Snail
Member
Good for you. You are not most people your age. BTW without parental consent you can't get a tat until you are 18.
1stduc
Member
I've seen this at local stores, of course if the person hangs around very long the cops show up, the dealers I normally deal with give to LEO and let them decide what to do.
Hobie
Member
I'm not skinny, Asian, or a kid but I jump up and down when I get a new gun.middy said:Your first example was a good one, but I don't see the problem with the kid.
Hobie
Member
I generally ONLY pay with cash. Why? Because I save my gun money in cash in my safe. I don't run it through the bank just for fun.mmike87 said:
I saw earlier in this tread where one poster commented that one store kicks out "all those kids that are under 21". Well, I'm 19, and the only way I can get a pistol is if a parent gives it to me. However, I am frequently buying new rifles. I'd hate to get thrown out of a store when I was preparing to purchase another M1a...so watch who you keep out, you lose good business that way
Hobie
Member
I witnessed just such a couple the other day and had the same thoughts. They were buying a PAIR of guns, their first other than a .22 rifle. Made me wonder.GoBrush said:
I haven't been considered a kid by anyone in over 35 years, and I do that too.Hobie said:I'm not skinny, Asian, or a kid but I jump up and down when I get a new gun.
It's the 'new gun dance'. Most of us do it - just not all of us will admit it.
el44vaquero
Member
I know I get funny looks when I got into gunshops or banks with my ski mask on. I'm not up to no good. My head's just cold. 
I have to admit that I'm viewed with a degree of suspician if I go into strange gunshops. I'm usually on my Harley with all the leather, long hair, beard, spur, so forth.
I accept it though, it's my choice to look this way.
In our local gunshops, they just look up and say, "Hi, Mick. Coffee?".
Biker
I accept it though, it's my choice to look this way.
In our local gunshops, they just look up and say, "Hi, Mick. Coffee?".
Biker
.455_Hunter
Member
View from the "otherside" in the Denver metro area
I am coming in a little late on this thread but what the heck.
I look about 25 and tend to dress very skater/grunge, including goatee, longer messy hair, snowboard hats, backwards ball caps, etc. I have also been known to "forget" my shoes in the summmer time (hot, sweaty feet suck!)
I have been on the receiving end of many blank stares, indignant "can I help you?"s, and also outright ignored by clerks in several gun shops.
Other actions have been provided by other customers in the store, including comments by the requisite greasy bearded fat guy learning on the counter or snickers/whispers from the combat boot/BDU pant wearing Officer Tackleberry wanna-be's drooling over the latest polymer wonder auto.
Their attitude changes when I know ten times more about the guns/ammo then they know.
They also change their tune when my background comes up:
R&D Explosives and Weapons Engineer for a DOD Contractor
IRR Army Captain (Ordnance Corps)
BS in Mechanical Engineering
CCW Permit Holder
The point of this post is that judging a customer on their appearance is pretty risky to a gun shop owner. Not all "good guys" look like Mr. Clean-Cut from a Norman Rockwell painting.
Hunter
I am coming in a little late on this thread but what the heck.
I look about 25 and tend to dress very skater/grunge, including goatee, longer messy hair, snowboard hats, backwards ball caps, etc. I have also been known to "forget" my shoes in the summmer time (hot, sweaty feet suck!)
I have been on the receiving end of many blank stares, indignant "can I help you?"s, and also outright ignored by clerks in several gun shops.
Other actions have been provided by other customers in the store, including comments by the requisite greasy bearded fat guy learning on the counter or snickers/whispers from the combat boot/BDU pant wearing Officer Tackleberry wanna-be's drooling over the latest polymer wonder auto.
Their attitude changes when I know ten times more about the guns/ammo then they know.
They also change their tune when my background comes up:
R&D Explosives and Weapons Engineer for a DOD Contractor
IRR Army Captain (Ordnance Corps)
BS in Mechanical Engineering
CCW Permit Holder
The point of this post is that judging a customer on their appearance is pretty risky to a gun shop owner. Not all "good guys" look like Mr. Clean-Cut from a Norman Rockwell painting.
Hunter
RangerHAAF
Member
The most obvious scenario that I've ever seen occurred about 2-3 months ago when I entered a local store and there were two individuals looking at and buying at least 20-30 of those cheap 380/9mm autos. The person who was buying the guns was a twenty something female who was with a young male, who fit the "gangmember" profile. After buying the guns, they needed a hand truck to wheel their purchase out to the trunk of their car.
I knew what was going on, the store owner knew what was going on and so did everyone else in the store. I was just amazed at actually seeing such an obvious "straw purchase" happen in front of me.
I knew what was going on, the store owner knew what was going on and so did everyone else in the store. I was just amazed at actually seeing such an obvious "straw purchase" happen in front of me.
SemiAutoMan
Member
Maybe you guys should look past appearances I mean don't get me wrong straw purchases are a diff story but alot in this thread is about people looking like they shouldn't have a gun or looking like they are a criminal. I have went into a gun shop and spent hours browsing with a wife beater and nike's on and a shaved head and always pay in rolls of cash (not drug money or anything just paychecks) I even sit in the gunshops talking to the owners about which gun would rip a bigger hole in a car (why because I shoot old cars). Just because someone looks like a criminal/gang-banger doesn't mean they are.
We routinely put the stop on gun sales when i was working. Some might call us names but when individual comes in and asks what ammo will go thru a bullet proof vest, or how fast can we sell him a gun cus the SOB is still sitting in the bar. Or how about "I don;t need to buy one, just rent one for a bit" or someone said if i rub soap in the barrel, the grooves will fill in and the cops won't know who shot the bullet. or When a young girl comes in and buys a gun, but calls a couple of times to find out what she is supposed to be buying. If she says my boyfriend want to buy some bullets for a nine millimeter, we sometims would sell her a box of bullets, as in speer jhp's not cartridges but just bullets it was what she wanted....
We had one kid who came in and wanted to buy a gun with an obviously doctored ID and we told him he had to call this number and gave him the local FBI office phone number. Another who had white out on the permit to purchase. or the kid who kept hold the gun up against the window untill the guy in the car nodded.
yeah every once in a while, we stopped a sale. usually we just called the office in back instead of the NICS line and then told them they were denied.
Once we called the local cop shop to check on a permit to purchase and there were ten cops in the store in less than five minutes sitting on a guy who was a lost class 3 sex offender who had skipped bail, bond and parole. and who was stupid enough to use his REAL NAME>
We had one kid who came in and wanted to buy a gun with an obviously doctored ID and we told him he had to call this number and gave him the local FBI office phone number. Another who had white out on the permit to purchase. or the kid who kept hold the gun up against the window untill the guy in the car nodded.
yeah every once in a while, we stopped a sale. usually we just called the office in back instead of the NICS line and then told them they were denied.
Once we called the local cop shop to check on a permit to purchase and there were ten cops in the store in less than five minutes sitting on a guy who was a lost class 3 sex offender who had skipped bail, bond and parole. and who was stupid enough to use his REAL NAME>
Pete F:
Your description of denying sales is exactly how a conscientious FFL ought to be. Selling guns to potential criminals is not doing the cause any good.
That SAID:
First impressions and quick judgements count. In humans those abilities are inherited survival characteristics. In less civilized times the ability to size up the intentions of an unknown animal or human often meant the difference between living and dying.
In modern society the ability to size up the unknown is no less important. What has happened though is that the relative proportion between potential enemies and friends has decreased to the point that more often than not the unknown is friend or neutral. Thus quick judgements and first impressions based on appearances and because of our diversified culture are more often than not wrong. The sheep don't understand that and complain that we should look past appearances. Those interested more in being safe than sorry do understand. Mistakes in judgement get made but judging wrong on the safe side doesn't get one robbed or killed.
Human beings are hard wired to judge quickly and we do whether we want to or not. Thus the mistakes in judgement are not going away, like it or not..
Moral of the story: Gun shop owners don't know you and don't have the time or the inclination to get to know you so if you don't wanna be treated like a gangbanger or scum then don't dress and/or act like a gang banger or scum.
And the above applies to more than just guns. Try applying for a professional position in say banking or high finance and see how far you get if you show up to your first interview dressed like a banger. You might be a wizard of wall street buy you'll never get the chance to be one because you'll be hustled out the door about 2 minutes after you get into the HR offices.
Your description of denying sales is exactly how a conscientious FFL ought to be. Selling guns to potential criminals is not doing the cause any good.
That SAID:
First impressions and quick judgements count. In humans those abilities are inherited survival characteristics. In less civilized times the ability to size up the intentions of an unknown animal or human often meant the difference between living and dying.
In modern society the ability to size up the unknown is no less important. What has happened though is that the relative proportion between potential enemies and friends has decreased to the point that more often than not the unknown is friend or neutral. Thus quick judgements and first impressions based on appearances and because of our diversified culture are more often than not wrong. The sheep don't understand that and complain that we should look past appearances. Those interested more in being safe than sorry do understand. Mistakes in judgement get made but judging wrong on the safe side doesn't get one robbed or killed.
Human beings are hard wired to judge quickly and we do whether we want to or not. Thus the mistakes in judgement are not going away, like it or not..
Moral of the story: Gun shop owners don't know you and don't have the time or the inclination to get to know you so if you don't wanna be treated like a gangbanger or scum then don't dress and/or act like a gang banger or scum.
And the above applies to more than just guns. Try applying for a professional position in say banking or high finance and see how far you get if you show up to your first interview dressed like a banger. You might be a wizard of wall street buy you'll never get the chance to be one because you'll be hustled out the door about 2 minutes after you get into the HR offices.
Waitone
Member
Tank top style shirt.
Nitrogen
Member
Stiletto Null
Member
Heh. Owned.pete f said:
I saw an artsy-looking couple wander in (funky-colored hair, lots of piercing, that weird art student aura, etc.) the other day and pop into the range. They were pretty cool looking, but a couple of the counter staff looked at them funny. The girl was pretty hot.
True, but people do judge you by your appearance. In some walks of life it doesn't matter as much as others. You'll never completely get away from it though it may not matter to you. If you act like a good person, you get past it pretty fast with most people; which it appears you do from what you described.SemiAutoMan said:
On the previous posts, I really think people are focusing on questionable behavior and people trying to be macho and act like they know about guns when they really don't. It just happens there are some common traits to those types of people in some places. I am sure stupidity is not the sole property of gang banger types. Rednecks just learn to shoot straight at an earlier age.
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