Garand Problems

[D.B. Cooper]

Took my Garand out to the range today. Still having problems.

I fired 48 rounds, and of those, it doubled twice. I started a thread about this issue a year or more ago. At that time, I had completely stripped the gun, as I was installing a new stock. I recalled putting grease on the hammer hooks. Since then, I washed the crap out of it in B-C Gun Scrubber. I've been storing the trigger housing group separate from the gun, so I know it's nice and clean and dry.The only other thing I can think of is I might have a bad trigger actuating device. My trigger actuator device comes loose from the trigger every time I fire. (This has never been a problem before, and I've owned the gun for many years.) I wonder if I may be accidentally bump firing. Any other thoughts or things to look for?

Next up, I'm having all sorts of feed problems. The bolt stays open and either does not release when a clip is inserted, or does not have the power to load the first round. However, I noticed that it takes a lot of force to strip the first round, even by hand. It is as though it is bound up and at a really steep angle trying to go from the clip to the chamber. I have to hit or push on the op rod handle to get it to load. After that, it almost works flawlessly.

The issue is that it seems like it's not going into battery fully, but it is. But it won't fire. It's as though the safety is on (but it isn't) and no amount of pulling on the trigger will fire the gun. The safety will not engage in this condition. I've found I can remedy this by pulling the op rod back about half way, and letting it slam home. After that, the safety will engage and disengage, and the gun will fire. This happened 4-5 times out of 48 rounds fired.

In regards to the last two concerns, it may be possible that I don't have it lubricated properly. I used Amsoil synthetic grease in the op-rod slide track instead of the old USGI sec stuff. That may be a no-go, or I may not have enough. I used ... I forget, but some kind of oil (likely B-C Barricade) on the rotating bolt parts.

Shot groups were sub 1" to 1-1/2" at 100 yrds. At 200 yrds, that opened up significantly to 2-3" and "all over the paper." At200 yrds, I managed to keep everything in the black of a regulation 100 yrd target. Some of that is due to bad eyes, and a slightly loose gas tube. I also hit a 3ft dia gong at 300 yrds. Brass all piled up in small piles at about the 1-2 o'clock position, so I think the rest of the gun is working fine.

Any thoughts? I was h

 

[Reloadron]

This link should give you some ideas of a few basic things to look for. This link will give you an idea of where and how to grease the sliding surfaces. About all I use is a good lithium grease. I am not sure what you mean when you refer to a trigger actuating device?

The only other thing I can think of is I might have a bad trigger actuating device. My trigger actuator device comes loose from the trigger every time I fire. (This has never been a problem before, and I've owned the gun for many years.) I wonder if I may be accidentally bump firing. Any other thoughts or things to look for?

The trigger actuating device would be your trigger finger. If I slowly "milk" the trigger I have managed double taps (pop, pop) and the only other time I have had the problem is with a trigger having worn locking lugs and I grease the hammer locking lugs and the sear. Hopefully the links will get you started. There is a long list of possibles as to why a cartridge may fail to feed or mis-feed, why a cartridge may not fully chamber, why a bolt may not fully close or lock and some of the other problems you mentioned.

The forum member who among several is really good on Garands is a fellow named Orlando. Hopefully he or another member can make some suggestions.

Ron

 

[D.B. Cooper]

This link should give you some ideas of a few basic things to look for. This link will give you an idea of where and how to grease the sliding surfaces. About all I use is a good lithium grease. I am not sure what you mean when you refer to a trigger actuating device?

The trigger actuating device would be your trigger finger. If I slowly "milk" the trigger I have managed double taps (pop, pop) and the only other time I have had the problem is with a trigger having worn locking lugs and I grease the hammer locking lugs and the sear. Hopefully the links will get you started. There is a long list of possibles as to why a cartridge may fail to feed or mis-feed, why a cartridge may not fully chamber, why a bolt may not fully close or lock and some of the other problems you mentioned.

The forum member who among several is really good on Garands is a fellow named Orlando. Hopefully he or another member can make some suggestions.

Ron

Thanks for those links. I did something like this last year (and shot it very little since), but I used the Brownell's youtube video series. This is much more detailed. I have both a micrometer and caliper. I think tomorrow, I'll lock myself in the garage and redo this entire process and then start over. Once I've measured and re-lubricated everything, if I still have issues, at least I'll know it's not that.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Some pics of the trigger group might help someone spot the offending part for the doubling concern. As far as the difficulty going into battery, is this an aftermarket cast receiver? Also, have you inspected it very closely to see if it is a reweld? Sounds like receiver stretch, or incorrect dimensions there.....

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Some pics of the trigger group might help someone spot the offending part for the doubling concern. As far as the difficulty going into battery, is this an aftermarket cast receiver? Also, have you inspected it very closely to see if it is a reweld? Sounds like receiver stretch, or incorrect dimensions there.....

No expletive deleted way!

It's a Springfield Armory 3.5 million s/n range, made Feb. 1945. I'm pretty certain it was a DCM (and I do mean DCM, not CMP) gun. I bought it in 1993 from a LGS. Shot DCM Service Rifle with it. Used to shoot 200+ rounds a week with it. While I haven't shot it a lot in recent years, I've never seen it do any of this before.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Sounds like you have a problem with the trigger dissconnector.
Be careful as it’s possible for a missfeeding Garand to fire out of battery.
Results aren’t pretty!

 

[MistWolf]

Many (if not most) Garands need a nudge after inserting a loaded clip in the magazine.

While the recommended grease is ideal, the Garand isn't grease sensitive. Keep it lubed and as long as the grease doesn't dry out and harden, the Garand will run.

It may be time to install new springs. Even if the springs are not worn out, new springs are cheap insurance.

Milking the trigger can cause double fire.

 

[Garandimal]

Took my Garand out to the range today. Still having problems.

I fired 48 rounds, and of those, it doubled twice...

Next up, I'm having all sorts of feed problems. The bolt stays open and either does not release when a clip is inserted, or does not have the power to load the first round...

Any thoughts? I was h

Relax - Both problems... aren't.

First off, the M1 Garand uses a floating firing pin. It is not restrained from hitting the cartridge primer in any way. This is why it is inadvisable to chamber live rounds at home.

Chamber a round and then shuck it, and look at the primer - you will notice a dimple where the firing pin hit it during clambering.

IF - the bolt closes with sufficient velocity to drive the firing pin hard onto the primer, and the primer is soft enough, it will discharge.

Try a little grease on the firing pin. This will add a little drag to the system and damped the float.


As for the first-round bump?

Congratulations, your M1 Garand is tight. (and as the saying goes, "if it ain't tight, it ain't worth a !@#$.")

If everything is properly lubed with grease, then it is what it is.

It may go away in 10,000 rounds or so.

If your clips have a heavy park finish on them, you can rub the inside of the feed lips with emery cloth and a little oil to smooth them out. May or may not help.

​

GR

 

[ford8nr]

What type of ammo are you running ?

My Garand I have to bump the bolt handle to get it to close on the first round.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Soft primers. Interesting. This only started when I began using some Korean surplus (i.e. PMC) from the 1980s that I picked up from someone who was leaving state. I still have 300+ rounds of it. But I also have new PPU, so I'll start switching them in and out and paying more attention to when if doubles.

Clips. Clips are also Korean surplus, but appear like new.

As far as bumping the handle on the first round and that being "normal" I'm not making myself clear: I have to force the op rod forward. I've owned the gun for over 20 years, and it has never been like this before.

PS: I got pulled away from the house yesterday and never got to stripping, measuring, and lubricating everything. Were in the last week of school with my students coming up on finals, so that will have to sit for a while. I wrote off the Service Rifle match for this month (next weekend). The last thing I want to do is show up, have the gun double while on the line, and get pulled off.

 

[ford8nr]

I have to force the op rod forward.

Do you have a bent op rod ?
Could have happened last time out.

 

[P5 Guy]

Do you have a bent op rod ?
Could have happened last time out.

The op-rod has a compound bend do not straighten it. Possible it could have been bent too much by firing slow burning powder in commercial .30'06?

 

[ford8nr]

I should have been clearer.
Do you have a damaged mis-bent op rod.

Is the new PPU M1 Garand ammo or just generic PPU 30-06

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Do you have a bent op rod ?
Could have happened last time out.

First of all, stop scaring me. Halloween was months ago.

The op-rod has a compound bend do not straighten it. Possible it could have been bent too much by firing slow burning powder in commercial .30'06?

Possible, but not likely. I haven't shot commercial ammo in this in forever. And even then I was using the modified gas port plug from Garnadgear. I've since reinstalled the GI plug and no longer shoot hunting ammo in it.

I should have been clearer.
Do you have a damaged mis-bent op rod.

Is the new PPU M1 Garand ammo or just generic PPU 30-06

No it's PPU M1 Garand M2 ammo. I buy it by the 500 round ammo can at Cabela's.

However...

All of your questions have me really thinking. ALL of these problems appeared after I started shooting that Korean surplus ammo.

 

[Nuclear]

The only issue I remember about the Korean surplus was that some (not all) of it was corrosive primed.

If you can't figure out the problem, there is always the CMP forum.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

The only issue I remember about the Korean surplus was that some (not all) of it was corrosive primed.

If you can't figure out the problem, there is always the CMP forum.

yeah. And someone here, years ago, posted a list of what was and was not corrosive by lot number. What I have is supposedly not corrosive. (And I've not had that issue, although, one time I thought I might. - I've got a thread on that here some place.)

There are other issues with Korean surplus. Some of it has been known to blow up a few Grands here and there. One at Camp Perry years ago. Someone of youtube has a video of his gun coming apart.

Continuing to think about my earlier posts, I believe I will discontinue using that stuff. (I never liked the idea of surplus ammo - I have no idea why I bought this stuff.) I think I'll just pull it all down, dump the powder, and reload it with 4895. In the mean time, as I try ti isolate what's going on here, I'll stick to new PPU, if only to reduce variables.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

This pin...

IMG_1734

• D.B. Cooper
• May 14, 2018

This pin fell out of the trigger assembly

Fell out of this hole...

IMG_1733

• D.B. Cooper
• May 14, 2018

It came out of this hole

And now it won't go back in.

IMG_1732

• D.B. Cooper
• May 14, 2018

Hammer hooks are on the sear. Will not fire.

Hammer hooks are engaged on the sear. Safety will not engage. Gun will not fire. I had this problem at the range Saturday as well - twice. Cycling the bolt and ejecting the unfired round fixed it. It started happening after engaging the safety.

I can't get all holes to line up to reinsert the pin. I'm afraid if I disengage the hammer hooks (probably going to be a necessity to reinsert the pin), then the coil spring under the hammer is going to come flying out and good luck getting that back into place.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

In other news...

I disassembled the gun (from memory no less - yay me. Next time I'll try it blind folded.) and inspected all of the parts per the link Reloadron's post #2. I did not remove the clip latch/release, because I'm not having an issue with clip retention, so that's the only part I didn't measure. Everything else measured in spec. The op-rod spring has a slight bend in it, but overall length is 19.25"

I didn't see anything odd, although I'm wondering if the rounds needing to be forced into the gun (which I was able to repeat again tonight) was caused by something binding against that loose pin. Either that, or I've just grease on everything and that's causing stuff not to work.

I expect that the trigger housing group will have to go to a gunsmith.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Ok... SO...got the gun back together and this is what I have come up with so far. Am I off my rocker?

Next up, I'm having all sorts of feed problems. The bolt stays open and either does not release when a clip is inserted, or does not have the power to load the first round. However, I noticed that it takes a lot of force to strip the first round, even by hand. It is as though it is bound up and at a really steep angle trying to go from the clip to the chamber. I have to hit or push on the op rod handle to get it to load. After that, it almost works flawlessly.

Okay. So. I think this ammo/clip issue and/or op rod spring. Working on the gun tonight, I realized the op-rod spring both pushes the bolt back and pulls it forward. They're cheap, so I'm just going to replace it. (Current one is at least 24 yrs old.) Ammo/clip issue:I could duplicate this tonight using dud rounds I made from surplus cases. It's as thought the clip is fatter than normal. It binds along the left side of the receive and sticks. Then bolt releases and jams up against the back of the clip and then it's stuck. Requires either a lot of force to seat it (and then the rounds don't feed) or I just eject the clip (and I have to pull the clip out by hand.) I don't get this when I load up a clip of PPU ammo. It could be the clips the Korean ammo is stored in (came that way, probably been in those clips since the late Cold War 1980s) Anyone ever see this with the old HXP or other very old surplus ammo?

The issue is that it seems like it's not going into battery fully, but it is. But it won't fire. It's as though the safety is on (but it isn't) and no amount of pulling on the trigger will fire the gun. The safety will not engage in this condition. I've found I can remedy this by pulling the op rod back about half way, and letting it slam home. After that, the safety will engage and disengage, and the gun will fire. This happened 4-5 times out of 48 rounds fired.

So this is definitely the pin that fell out of the trigger assembly tonight. (pictures in post above.) No doubt about it. Now how to fix it?

 

[LoonWulf]

you need to release the tension on the hammer, to replace the trigger pin...google told me so...
http://www.civilianmarksmanship.com/striphtml/detailtriggergroup.html

 

[Reloadron]

Additionally this is a good video on disassembly and reassembly of the trigger housing group. Once you have done this several times it gets easier. Check the pins for any wear and or being bent but mostly wear.



Wolf does make a complete M1 Garand spring kit I have seen on Amazon and Midway seems to be out of stock on them. Brownell's also sells M1 Garand springs. Inspect all springs for an flat and shiny spots. Check the clip latch spring as they like to fail.

Ron

 

[lysanderxiii]

First off, the M1 Garand uses a floating firing pin. It is not restrained from hitting the cartridge primer in any way. This is why it is inadvisable to chamber live rounds at home.

Chamber a round and then shuck it, and look at the primer - you will notice a dimple where the firing pin hit it during clambering.

IF - the bolt closes with sufficient velocity to drive the firing pin hard onto the primer, and the primer is soft enough, it will discharge.

GR

NO.

The Garand design has a safety bridge inside the receiver, and the firing pin has a hook that contacts the safey bridge and the bridge holds the firing pin to the rear until the bolt rotates to the locked position.

Google "Garand safety bridge"....

If you are doubling, check the firing pin and safety bridge. You can find pictures on the web to see if your parts are worn.

Next, pictures will help diagnose the problem.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Darn. I was afraid of that. (double entendre) But I also knew that such was the case.

Is this a case of "The trigger has to come all apart to fix this, might as well replace all of the springs while I'm there" or, given that I've had n other trigger problems, should I just reinstall the old springs?

 

[Reloadron]

Springs are a small investment to assure a good functioning rifle, Wolf Springs are a good choice. Check all of the springs for flat spots which normally will appear shiny. Here is an example of an ejector spring from a stripped bolt.



Ron

 

[Jim Watson]

I am not a Garandologist, but I see stuff come by.
1980s Korean surplus ammo comes in two varieties. The corrosive primed which is of good quality and gives no trouble as long as you wet clean. The noncorrosive is of poor quality and yours is just one of the problems I have seen attributed to it.

I am a dreadful trigger milker. My Accuracy Rifle Systems Mini 14's 4.5 lb trigger would double nearly every time I tried to check out the new barrel's accuracy off a bench. I ended up with my fingertip on the edge of the trigger so it would slip off as the shot broke and not bounce fire. No problems shooting from standing at 3 Gun events.
A less experienced friend asked me to zero his Stevens tube fed .22 auto. I hunkered down on the sandbags and squeezed. The little gun would often shoot until I got off the trigger entirely or it jammed or ran out. It scared him, although he could not do it if he tried.