Henry Bowman
Senior Member
I know that. But among the Birkenstock and hemp-wearing crowd and the other "do-gooders," white sugar is evil.
gas rant.....
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MCgunner
Member
The idea is to dramatically reduce the oil demand, not eliminate it. We produce something like 40% of our own oil needs. If we can reduce the demand by 60 percent, we're independent of OPEC, well, sorta. Anyway, it dramatically reduces the price of a barrel on the world market.
Ivy Mike
Member
Speaking of hemp, there's another possible source for cellulose destined for ethanol production.
Legalized pot would allow for hemp production and the removal of drug dealers. Kill their market and they go away. Now you've got a new renewable crop (which is arguably the 2nd most valuable crop produced in the USA today behind corn) with several uses.
Legalized pot would allow for hemp production and the removal of drug dealers. Kill their market and they go away. Now you've got a new renewable crop (which is arguably the 2nd most valuable crop produced in the USA today behind corn) with several uses.
Headless Thompson Gunner
Member
At $3/gal, gas is still incredibly cheap. How much gas does the average American use every week? 10 gallons? 15? 20? Is an extra dollar or two per gallon really going to bankrupt the average man on the street?
Couple that with the fact that the market is already beggining provide viable alternatives to the conventional gasoline powered car. Most of the most popular car models are now widely available as hybrids. Ethanol powered cars and trucks are also avaiable now. What's more, people don't recoil from the prospects of owning either.
Seems to me that everyone is blowing this "oil problem" way out of proportion.
Couple that with the fact that the market is already beggining provide viable alternatives to the conventional gasoline powered car. Most of the most popular car models are now widely available as hybrids. Ethanol powered cars and trucks are also avaiable now. What's more, people don't recoil from the prospects of owning either.
Seems to me that everyone is blowing this "oil problem" way out of proportion.
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Jim_M
Member
....Lets tell the WORLD that America will begin to drill for and produce oil from the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) next month. The price for an imported barrel of crude will crash, overnight.
visit here.....http://www.anwr.org/
visit here.....http://www.anwr.org/
Ivy Mike
Member
HTG, the problem isn't with the availability of hybrids or flex fuel vehicles (although the latter is much more common) the problem is with availability of fuel. There are only 2 or 3 E85 stations in Las Vegas and I don't think there are any biodiesel stations here.
The oil problem isn't as serious as people make out, but what is a problem is our dependence on foreign oil for energy production. We are dependent on so many foreign sources for a number resources. Do you realize that we are importing lumber? Yes, with all the forestry areas we have, we are importing lumber. :banghead: The greens in all their wisdom can't comprehend that when you use wood products, you are ordering more trees to be planted for harvesting. We have more trees now than we did 100 years ago because of this. (http://www.woodmarkets.com/2005 NL 2 pager/Mar05 2pg.pdf source for luber import statistics)
People are complaining about exporting jobs, well, lets start putting more Americans to work and lets produce our own energy again. Reduced dependence on foreign oil now will be a distinct advantage in the coming years. Could you imagine if the US actually signed the Kyoto Protocol and was able to turn the tables and start selling pollution credits to everyone else.
The oil problem isn't as serious as people make out, but what is a problem is our dependence on foreign oil for energy production. We are dependent on so many foreign sources for a number resources. Do you realize that we are importing lumber? Yes, with all the forestry areas we have, we are importing lumber. :banghead: The greens in all their wisdom can't comprehend that when you use wood products, you are ordering more trees to be planted for harvesting. We have more trees now than we did 100 years ago because of this. (http://www.woodmarkets.com/2005 NL 2 pager/Mar05 2pg.pdf source for luber import statistics)
People are complaining about exporting jobs, well, lets start putting more Americans to work and lets produce our own energy again. Reduced dependence on foreign oil now will be a distinct advantage in the coming years. Could you imagine if the US actually signed the Kyoto Protocol and was able to turn the tables and start selling pollution credits to everyone else.
Ivy Mike
Member
$3/gal is cheap in comparison to European countries. The reason their fuel is so expensive is mainly because of taxes. Its not as big an issue though as the public transit systems there tend to be much better than ours. I alos think the 10-20gal per month estimate is pretty low for some two vehicle families. I find myself filling my car's 12 gallon tank (and this is a 2.0l 4-cyl car) twice a month as well as the 3.5 gallon tank on my motorcycle a few times a month.
Sorry, but $3/gal isn't cheap for a country that relies so heavily on its roads and personal vehicles for transit. Just ask truckers and trucking companies how they feel about fuel prices soaring 10-20 cents per gallon every week.
Sorry, but $3/gal isn't cheap for a country that relies so heavily on its roads and personal vehicles for transit. Just ask truckers and trucking companies how they feel about fuel prices soaring 10-20 cents per gallon every week.
Manedwolf
member
In this area, the places where a lot of the jobs are, most of the people can't afford to live. So they HAVE to commute. And they drive what they can afford. Hybrids are expensive.
Saying an extra dollar or two won't bother people is a complete disconnect from the reality for most people. Also, small business owners who depend on ground transportation like trucks, which HAVE to use a lot of fuel, are in serious pain right now.
And THAT is definitely true. You can get almost anywhere in the UK via rail, there's trains from everywhere to everywhere on a complex schedule. Here, we have...um...amtrak.
Most of the passenger rail services to villages and small towns, which would be a WONDERFUL thing now, ended before the 1930's.
In your average small town in New England, you can see an old railroad passenger station that's usually now a dentist's office, lawyer's office, or upwardly-mobile sort's home. (Usually near the Starbucks.) And you realize that at one time, you could walk from your house, step onto a train, and ride to Boston, on to New York, whatever...without using your car. Imagine that.
Saying an extra dollar or two won't bother people is a complete disconnect from the reality for most people. Also, small business owners who depend on ground transportation like trucks, which HAVE to use a lot of fuel, are in serious pain right now.
And THAT is definitely true. You can get almost anywhere in the UK via rail, there's trains from everywhere to everywhere on a complex schedule. Here, we have...um...amtrak.
Most of the passenger rail services to villages and small towns, which would be a WONDERFUL thing now, ended before the 1930's. In your average small town in New England, you can see an old railroad passenger station that's usually now a dentist's office, lawyer's office, or upwardly-mobile sort's home. (Usually near the Starbucks.) And you realize that at one time, you could walk from your house, step onto a train, and ride to Boston, on to New York, whatever...without using your car. Imagine that.
Ivy Mike
Member
You may or may not be surprised to find that Amtrak is owned by the FedGov and is in many cases, more expensive than air travel. Needless to say, Amtrak loses money every year. Thing is, its taxpayer money that they lose. 
I'd be more than happy to ride a bus or commuter train to work. We don't have a train here though and a bus commute would mean waking up a full 2 or 3 hours earlier than if I drove.
That just isn't acceptable.
I'd be more than happy to ride a bus or commuter train to work. We don't have a train here though and a bus commute would mean waking up a full 2 or 3 hours earlier than if I drove.
That just isn't acceptable.
One of the bad things about the increased price of gas and diesel is that not only does the increased cost of the gas hurt with each fill up, but you are also paying more for nearly every other product you buy. Most every thing at the grocery store had to be shipped by a train, or a truck and those costs pass directly to the consumer.
The overall effect puts a hurt on most average folks, I know I don't drive near as much. I've also noticed most everything's inching up in price a bit quicker than normal inflation would account for.
The overall effect puts a hurt on most average folks, I know I don't drive near as much. I've also noticed most everything's inching up in price a bit quicker than normal inflation would account for.
Headless Thompson Gunner
Member
We all choose our lifestyles, our jobs, our homes, our vehicles. We all benifit or suffer based on the quality of the choices we make. If your choices cause you to suffer, well, that's you get for making poor choices.
C'mon, folks. Take some responsibility. If commuting 50 miles a day is unpleasant, then quit whining and do something to improve your situation. Adapt. Overcome. Pretend you have a modicum of problem-solving ability.
Besides, a 50 mile daily commute is no excuse to be unable to afford the additional gas prices. Do the math: 50 mile daily commute, 5 days per week, in a car that gets a reasonable 25 mpg... If gas prices rise from $2/gal to $3/gal, your additional cost will be a paltry $10 per week.
Are you gonna tell me that any self-responsible American can't afford an extra $10 per week?? Most people spend more than that on their morning coffee...
Gas IS cheap at $3 per gallon. Sorry for the heartless dose of reality...
Ivy Mike
Member
$10/week = $40 per month.
I can think of quite a few things I'd rather do with $40 a month. Imagine if you put that into some moderately aggresive investments starting around age 25.
Does $10 a week still seem paltry?
I hate to break it to you, but for some, earning more means a longer commute. I could work in my own neighborhood, but I wouldn't make near what I do now even though it means a commute of nearly 30 miles a day.
I can think of quite a few things I'd rather do with $40 a month. Imagine if you put that into some moderately aggresive investments starting around age 25.
Does $10 a week still seem paltry?
I hate to break it to you, but for some, earning more means a longer commute. I could work in my own neighborhood, but I wouldn't make near what I do now even though it means a commute of nearly 30 miles a day.
MD_Willington
Member
They did & do exploration in Canada, I used to do that in 1994, Slumberger-Geco-Prakla... Petro-Canada (government company) paid us to go look for the stuff.
Plenty of material comes from Canada via BC, Alberta & Saskatchewan...
Plenty of oil in Alberta sitting in the Tar sands and off the coast of BC, BC is not persuing it offshore ATM, though there is a lot of oil/natural gas in central and Northern BC...
The Chinese are heavilly investing in Alberta.
Ivy Mike
Member
Don't forget folks that most of our refineries here are quite old and can't really compete with newer refineries in other countries. Newer, more efficient refineries here would assist with production, but the newest refinery in the USA was built in 1976.
Either we continue with our oil consumption and build new refineries, or we can start looking into new energy sources for vehicles.
We can produce ethanol from renewable resources and put more Americans back to work. I guess oil money still talks pretty loudly.
Either we continue with our oil consumption and build new refineries, or we can start looking into new energy sources for vehicles.
We can produce ethanol from renewable resources and put more Americans back to work. I guess oil money still talks pretty loudly.
HTG
Maybe three bucks a gallon doesn't seem like much, but when you consider the trasportation cost of food and other consumables, how much more tires will cost (petrol product), the price of plastic bags at the grocery store, etc., it can add up quick.
Those costs will be passed on to the consumer.
You can refrain from driving a mile and still pay more for living.
Biker
Maybe three bucks a gallon doesn't seem like much, but when you consider the trasportation cost of food and other consumables, how much more tires will cost (petrol product), the price of plastic bags at the grocery store, etc., it can add up quick.
Those costs will be passed on to the consumer.
You can refrain from driving a mile and still pay more for living.
Biker
Yes.
1. Nobody likes to drive a car that is so slow it can't get out of its own way.
2. You can't fill it up without getting nasty. Diesel is oily and does not evaporate, hence it sits all over everything in the area, including your good clothes, that is, if you wear them. I do.
3. Only available certain stations.
4. Costs even more than gasoline, nowadays.
5. More than half of drivers are women and they don't like to get dirty or smell funky,
at least the ones of my acquaintance.MCgunner
Member
There's actually E85 for SALE in the US somewhere????
If you don't mine, what's it going for a gallon???? Just curious as to what the pricing is on it which would indicate to me how high gas will have to go before E85 becomes an economic incentive.As for trains and public transportation, I live in a small town in a small county in the coastal bend of Texas. Public transportation does not exist here or in the county. Victoria is the largest town nearby, 30 miles. Corpus is 85 miles away. They both have busses.
We have the old train station here, tracks were taken out many years ago and it sits as a historical relic with a historical marker out front.
Any trains coming here are coming to a dead end, so this is their only destination. I don't think they were using diesel electrics yet when our station closed. If I need to get anywhere, I do it with gasoline. I currently run a small engine repair at my shop at home and am partially retired, but when I was working at the plant it was a 6 mile commute. We had LOTS and LOTS of guys commuting 45 miles there from Victoria. They're all probably crying right now. I can only laugh. Most of 'em live for today, have to drive the biggest truck they can to impress everyone, live in Victoria where the stores are and such, their excuse. Well, I always figured I'd rather drive to a store and make a shopping day of it than have to commute 45 miles one way to work everyday... Anyway, I am working, partnered, doing the wrenching at a farm and ranch services shop over in Edna, 34 miles from my home. But, I only go over there average 3 days a week to take care of business and I ride a motorcycle when I do. My business is growning at my own shop and foresee the day I'll bring my toolbox home from Edna and just work here. Besides, I don't have to split any profits here.
Right now, I'm working both shops while my business builds, though. Heck, if I had that electric scooter, I wouldn't care WHAT gas prices did except that it limits my travel to race motorcycles or go hunting or on trips. No big deal if I have to slow down on all that. I have a place here to hunt, 30 miles from town, and I like duck hunting here on the public areas that are local. And, the fishing is GREAT. Oh, you wanna talk gas consumption, how 'bout your outboard?
Maybe I need a kayak or small sailing sloop?:banghead: Oh, and BTW, how well does two stroke oil mix with E85? I know the kart guys run methanol in their two strokes.
Ivy Mike
Member
BigG, you must not be familiar with more recent diesel powered vehicles.
DaimlerChrysler hasn't been able to keep up with demand for the Jeep Liberty CRD. Volkswagen has been selling diesel cars here for many years. The latest VW TDI engines produce more low-end power than their gas powered brothers and get more mileage per tank. No lack of power there. Mercedes-Benz released a new diesel powered model either this year, or last year (may have even been 04) in anticipation of new diesel standards coming here. Demand has been overwhelming.
I don't know how the diesel pumps look in your neck of the woods, but mine look just like gasoline pumps. You stick the nozzle in the filler neck and pump. When your done, you put it back. The only way to get messy is to actually try.
Price at the pump is less than premium in my area. Couple that with getting almost double from a tank of fuel and the savings are quickly realized. Higher diesel production will give us lower prices.
MCgunner
http://www.e85fuel.com/
head there and you can see where E85 is available. Click the Find E85 Near You link.
Sadly, I don't know pricing as I don't own an E85 compatible vehicle and never have need to look.
Sorry.
I do know that in Brazil where ethanol production is much higher than ours here, E85 is often quite a bit cheaper (sometimes half the price) than regular gasoline. Now, this could have to do with Brazil cutting way back on oil dependence and not getting oil as cheaply as they once did. I'm really not too sure.
Gearheads will also like the fact that E85 is 105 octane.
DaimlerChrysler hasn't been able to keep up with demand for the Jeep Liberty CRD. Volkswagen has been selling diesel cars here for many years. The latest VW TDI engines produce more low-end power than their gas powered brothers and get more mileage per tank. No lack of power there. Mercedes-Benz released a new diesel powered model either this year, or last year (may have even been 04) in anticipation of new diesel standards coming here. Demand has been overwhelming.
I don't know how the diesel pumps look in your neck of the woods, but mine look just like gasoline pumps. You stick the nozzle in the filler neck and pump. When your done, you put it back. The only way to get messy is to actually try.
Price at the pump is less than premium in my area. Couple that with getting almost double from a tank of fuel and the savings are quickly realized. Higher diesel production will give us lower prices.
MCgunner
http://www.e85fuel.com/
head there and you can see where E85 is available. Click the Find E85 Near You link.
Sadly, I don't know pricing as I don't own an E85 compatible vehicle and never have need to look.
Sorry.
I do know that in Brazil where ethanol production is much higher than ours here, E85 is often quite a bit cheaper (sometimes half the price) than regular gasoline. Now, this could have to do with Brazil cutting way back on oil dependence and not getting oil as cheaply as they once did. I'm really not too sure.
Gearheads will also like the fact that E85 is 105 octane.
Anyone who thinks +$3 a gallon gas is cheep is probaly either in the oil business or a "GWB regardless radical" when the price was about +$1 just 6 years ago.
In stead of say oh well its only a few dollars more now, I see it as being 3 times as much and simply because the stewarts are pocketing their unbelieveable profitts.
I am for drilling in the artic, developing alternative fuels and improving the effeciency of fuel burning machines but what is it worth if they rape the public as the oil Industry is doing.:banghead:
Instead of stearing our fuel prices towards those in Europe, lets aim to match those of our more close neighbors like South America. Last time I looked it was still less than a buck in Venezuela.
consider what it does to seniors on fixed incomes, like myself. Its not just the gasoline but all of the other things that are affected by oil prices.
when the price was about +$1 just 6 years ago. In stead of say oh well its only a few dollars more now, I see it as being 3 times as much and simply because the stewarts are pocketing their unbelieveable profitts. I am for drilling in the artic, developing alternative fuels and improving the effeciency of fuel burning machines but what is it worth if they rape the public as the oil Industry is doing.:banghead:
Instead of stearing our fuel prices towards those in Europe, lets aim to match those of our more close neighbors like South America. Last time I looked it was still less than a buck in Venezuela.
consider what it does to seniors on fixed incomes, like myself. Its not just the gasoline but all of the other things that are affected by oil prices.
In fact I saw a thing on TV were Ford was working on an experimental Mustang that was designed to run on ethonal. The main difference from a conventional Mustang is that because of the much high octane it had very high compression. I think is was like 14 or 15 to 1. This resulted in more power and improved fuel consumption. In fact they claimed that this car had more HP then the same basic machine running on un-leaded gas.
Gas is cheap at 3 bucks a gallon. Consider this-exactly how long would it take you to push your vehicle one gallons worth? Say you have a F 150 that gets 18 mpg. I have this funny feeling after you pushed that truck 18 miles, and calculated your wages for the time, you would think $3 gas was the worlds biggist bargain. The problem is not $ 3 gas, the problem is we have been spoiled so long we have no point of reference for value.
We are talking 18 cents a cup. One tenth the cost of a cup of coffee.
What is a cup of gas? Here is a reference check for reality. Go find some logs that need to be bucked. Put a cup of gas in your chainsaw. Go to work. When you run out of gas, think about how long it would take to do that chore with a handsaw. Better yet, grab your swedish buck saw and cut the same amount of wood.The work potential of gasoline is beyond most peoples imagination because so few of us have to do physical work anymore.
That's the sugar coating- here is the problem.- Gas ain't gonna be $ 3 gallon. I would not be surprized to see it at $5 or more by summers end. We have big new players wanting fuel, India and China, and we have a very unstable supply in not only the middle east but Nigeria and Venezula and maybe mexico. So when the gas REALLY gets expensive, we are going to have severe financial repercussions, mostly cause us Americans have not bothered to save a nickel. We might have been able if the @#$%^&* Government hadn't taken 43% of our income as tax. Rant over.
We are talking 18 cents a cup. One tenth the cost of a cup of coffee.
What is a cup of gas? Here is a reference check for reality. Go find some logs that need to be bucked. Put a cup of gas in your chainsaw. Go to work. When you run out of gas, think about how long it would take to do that chore with a handsaw. Better yet, grab your swedish buck saw and cut the same amount of wood.The work potential of gasoline is beyond most peoples imagination because so few of us have to do physical work anymore.
That's the sugar coating- here is the problem.- Gas ain't gonna be $ 3 gallon. I would not be surprized to see it at $5 or more by summers end. We have big new players wanting fuel, India and China, and we have a very unstable supply in not only the middle east but Nigeria and Venezula and maybe mexico. So when the gas REALLY gets expensive, we are going to have severe financial repercussions, mostly cause us Americans have not bothered to save a nickel. We might have been able if the @#$%^&* Government hadn't taken 43% of our income as tax. Rant over.
Kodiaz
member
Man gas isn't cheap if your a fatcat and can pay 10/gal gas good for you. The rest of us wage slaves don't laugh at 3/gal gas heck we don't even own any "civilized" sporting arms(10,000 over unders). For the average Joe it's a burden and it will only increase. Now if we were all rich fatcats then who would you all get to do your dirty work.
3/gal gas doesn't affect me that much I don't drive to work. But I can tell you
business has slowed a lot last week.
Man I can't wait to hear you guys scream bloody murder when this starts to affect you oh boy I can only imagine.
43% income tax and you can't save money. Don't buy a plasma TV and keep last years Lexus instead of getting a new one.
3/gal gas doesn't affect me that much I don't drive to work. But I can tell you
business has slowed a lot last week.
Man I can't wait to hear you guys scream bloody murder when this starts to affect you oh boy I can only imagine.
43% income tax and you can't save money. Don't buy a plasma TV and keep last years Lexus instead of getting a new one.
748
member
BigG is not a diesel mechanic.
I think there is a good chance he has never driven a newer diesel car or worked on a diesel engine.
I work on diesel engines 5 days a week. The diesel engines don't really break just every thing around them and on them breaks. The engine is the best part. You could all most say I work on every thing but the diesel engine it's self.
Turbo diesel...
get more miles per gallon with cheaper fuel.
fuel dosen't everaporate like gas.
Require less matenece
last longer
you can cut the fuel with clean used waste motor oil and used hydraluic fluid.
cars can haul these days, has any one ever herd of the VW 1.8t diesel. I wish I had the $ for one.
Also Please do not,
Don’t draw conclusions with out the facts.
and also,
Make no judgment where you have no compassion.
I lived in Japan for 3 years.
The Japinese figured out that diesels are great cars and light and med trucks.
They figured it out in europe too.
Chevy tried to launch diesel cars in the U.S. in the 70's and with a bunch of badly designed in diesels in a bunch of cars. In sted of launching the diesel market they killed it.
I think there is a good chance he has never driven a newer diesel car or worked on a diesel engine.
I work on diesel engines 5 days a week. The diesel engines don't really break just every thing around them and on them breaks. The engine is the best part. You could all most say I work on every thing but the diesel engine it's self.
Turbo diesel...
get more miles per gallon with cheaper fuel.
fuel dosen't everaporate like gas.
Require less matenece
last longer
you can cut the fuel with clean used waste motor oil and used hydraluic fluid.
cars can haul these days, has any one ever herd of the VW 1.8t diesel. I wish I had the $ for one.
Also Please do not,
Don’t draw conclusions with out the facts.
and also,
Make no judgment where you have no compassion.
I lived in Japan for 3 years.
The Japinese figured out that diesels are great cars and light and med trucks.
They figured it out in europe too.
Chevy tried to launch diesel cars in the U.S. in the 70's and with a bunch of badly designed in diesels in a bunch of cars. In sted of launching the diesel market they killed it.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
In terms of inflation and the buying power of the dollar, today's gasoline at three bucks a gallon is right on target in comparison to other consumables. That is, for the past ten years or so gasoline has been underpriced.
Art
Art
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