gas rant.....

[Ivy Mike]

Luckily 748, new diesel fuel standards coming in 07 mean low sulfur diesel that is comparable to that in Europe.
This means more diesels on our shores and more people buying them. Like I said, DaimlerChrysler hasn't been able to keep up with demand for the CRD Liberty. They were all gone within months of their release.
I would love to find a nice 1.9l VW TDI motor to swap into my GTI. In fact, its not uncommon at all to have some of the VW TDIs run well over 200,000 miles. They outlast the cars. Diesel is going to make a comeback here. Ford could really cash in if they'd bring over the diesel Ranger that they sell in the UK. We'll see if it happens. Yes folks, Ford has been selling a diesel powered Ranger for years in Europe.

Tokugawa, we don't live in the 1800's anymore. If we ran out of inexpensive fuel, it would be a one way trip back. All these low cost goods we love are transported to us with the aid of cheap fuel. Every increase in fuel costs means an increase in other costs. Sorry, but fuel is not cheap these days and many families are feeling the pinch.

hvengel, I posted a link to http://www.e85fuel.com earlier. Its got a great FAQ about E85 and at the bottom of every page, it lists E85 as being 105 octane.

 

[MCgunner]

http://www.thunderproducts.com/dial_a_jet.htm

If E85 becomes readily available, the above link is my answer for motorcycles. I'll be buyin' these things for three bikes. You can instantly change carburetor jetting. I have a friend that says these things are fantastic. I haven't personally tried one. I'm going to get one for my little 200cc single and try it. If it works on that bike, I'll spring for 'em for the Wing and the SV. I will then be dual fuel compatible.

 

[MCgunner]

Its got a great FAQ about E85 and at the bottom of every page, it lists E85 as being 105 octane.

Hmm, I run 6 dollar a gallon (last time I bought it) VP Racing C12, 108 octane in my two race bikes. One of 'em is a four stroke, my flat tracker. Gonna run it tomorrow up in Huffman in fact, east of Houston, and need to stop and get some fuel on the way. The other, though, is a two stroke motard (a modified dirt bike for road racing) that I road race. I'm now wondering whether two stroke racing premix will mix well in E85. I might try the stuff in the tracker. If it detonates, I can always drain it and go back to VP. Hate to try it in the two stroke and wind up seizing the thing and spittin' me off. Been there, done that.

 

[Ivy Mike]

well its not like rings and pistons are that hard to change.

I'm trying to figure out what makes a motor compatible with E85 and what doesn't.

 

[atomchaser]

The oft overlooked problem that I see with H2, is that currently it takes more energy to extract it via electrolysis and other methods than it produces when burned. We'd be better off with electric-only cars as far as efficiency. Sure, you can make H2 with electricity and water, but that electricity is likely coming from burning coal, so it's not really getting around the use of fossil fuels. Unless we can find a reliable method to obtain H2 that uses less energy than burning it creates, I don't see H2 being a viable long-term solution.

We need to get off our duffs and build the next generation of nuclear plants. There are new high temperature fast reactor designs that can produce electricity and produce hydrogen via electrolosis as a byproduct.
http://nuclear.inl.gov/gen4/vhtr.shtml

 

[BIGJACK]

by Art Eatman

In terms of inflation and the buying power of the dollar, today's gasoline at three bucks a gallon is right on target in comparison to other consumables. That is, for the past ten years or so gasoline has been underpriced

So now we are supposed to be thankful that it is more inline with other consumables as opposed to wanting it back underpriced???? And that is even if the oil companies are hauling in unprecedented profits.

 

[MCgunner]

well its not like rings and pistons are that hard to change.

I'm trying to figure out what makes a motor compatible with E85 and what doesn't.
__________________

Well, the top end comes off with 8 bolts, two exhaust springs, remove the water hose on the head, and remove a carb clamp. Oh, you gotta drain the water out first. But, when that happens, you ain't seein' straight for several days and you have this KILLER head ache. The scary part is when you suddenly find yourself driving home, have no idea how you got there or what road you're on. Some parts of the experience you will never remember. It's like twilight zone stuff....

I remember when gasohol was the big deal, what, 10%? Anyway, there were gripes that O rings, fuel lines, what not were not compatible. I believe that's probably not a problem anymore. The main thing is, at least with methanol and I assume would be the case with ethanol, is that it does not mix at the same ratio as does gas. Methanol does not have as much energy as gas does per weight of fuel, but it mixes richer in air, like three times richer. IOW, you have to drastically increase the jet sizes in the carb for it. With fuel injection, you'd probably need a new ECU in a closed loop system like a car and you might also need new injectors with more capacity or to add and injector (a common racing mod). With a bike using an open loop, you'd just get a Power Commander and by the time all this happens, there'll probably be maps on the power commander site to download for ethanol fuel. An open loop EFI would be the easiest to rejet for the fuel, I'd think. With my carbureted bikes, I am thinking the dial a jet conversion I posted the link to above will be the best way. That way you could fill up with gas and just dial in a new jet so it'll run on gasoline.

I don't know, but I think that's about all there is to it. Methanol is used in kart racing and indy cars and drag racing. It is a known in the performance world. It makes more power even though it has less energy because it mixes 3 times richer in gas. Now, you think about it, YES, it will get less fuel mileage than gasoline for that reason. It is running a much richer mixture. Methanol is, like I say, about 3 times richer. I do not know, however, how ethanol, let alone E85, is going to jet. This is something I'll have to experiment with when the time finally comes.

Edit...Oh, yeah, the dual fuel E85 cars, I understand, have a specific gravity sensor in the gas tank so the computer (efi) knows what mixture is in the tank. It automatically adjusts fuel "jetting" to account for what fuel you are using even if you had half tank of gas and filled up with E85. I'm hoping the aftermarket industry will step up to the plate. There will be huge demand for E85 conversions on efi cars if the stuff takes off an lots of money to be made by mechanics. I'll convert my 94 chevy MK3 conversion van if and when the hardware becomes available.

 

[748]

Any engine made for unleaded gas will hold up great with alcohol fuel on the inside.
Internaly they could use a bit higher compersion ratio or turbo charging would help.
All the rubber and plastic crap is what will go.
The fuel injection systems computer won't know how to take alcohol fuel and air then burn it while getting the most power from the fuel.
I have a carb so all I have to do is change out some $3 jets for when I want to use ethanol base fuel.

 

[Ivy Mike]

I'd almost be curious to see how E85 would perform in my bike. Would it matter if my bike uses CV carbs? (a 1996 Honda Magna)

 

[Otherguy Overby]

Regarding MTBE, it was a boondoggle from the get go. And everyone pretty much knew it at the time. EFI and electronic engine management had already made the cars clean enough. The MTBE and alcohol requirements were intended to clean up older cars that were becoming obsolete. The MTBE did not make current cars ANY cleaner. Also because of NAFTA, I believe we have to pay big bucks to Canada for not buying it from them.


Regardless, that's past stuff what's the government actually doing to solve things now?

New nuclear power plants are not in the works.
New oil fields are not in the works except in Canada.
New refineries are not in the works.

Last I heard was liberals and/or Democrats are blocking any government action and blaming Bush for all the problems.

All I can say is our government is not likely to solve this situation.

Technology can and realistic solutions are available, too. Things are sure gonna get worse before they get better.

 

[mountainclmbr]

The tax on gas (federal only) is about $.45 per gallon. The average profit for petroleum companies is $.09 per gallon. I will leave it to the reader to decide who is gouging.

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

Don't use E85 in your bike. As it is, newer bikes barely tolerate 10 percent ethanol and older bikes don't. It raises havoc with the neoprene carb parts. The E85-capable vehicles use stainless steel parts in the fuel system instead of polymer, which is why not every vehicle can run on E85. No bike can run on that stuff.

I have a solution to all our energy problems: retest all drivers and only give licenses to people who can actually drive. That will take 70-90 percent of all drivers off the road and we'll have more oil than we can possibly burn without even tapping into ANWAR. Think about it: if the driver's test required any skill whatsoever, most of the hammerheads on the road could not pass it. Right now the only skill needed is parallel parking, which is not exactly a driving skill because parking is the opposite of driving. Most people cannot grasp even the simplest concept, like slower traffic keeping right, or even signaling a lane change. Get the boneheads off the highway and our oil consumption drops 50-75 percent overnight.

Speaking of which...

Yes.

1. Nobody likes to drive a car that is so slow it can't get out of its own way.

2. You can't fill it up without getting nasty. Diesel is oily and does not evaporate, hence it sits all over everything in the area, including your good clothes, that is, if you wear them. I do.

3. Only available certain stations.

4. Costs even more than gasoline, nowadays.

5. More than half of drivers are women and they don't like to get dirty or smell funky, at least the ones of my acquaintance.

The original question was why aren't there more diesels on U.S. roads. The answer above, while pretty close to 100 percent wrong, illustrates the lack of knowledge about diesels that is the real problem. Diesel is nasty? Gasoline is nice? You don't like the way diesel smells? Don't pour it all over yourself. If you poured gasoline all over yourself you'd smell pretty funky, too.

 

[MCgunner]

I'd almost be curious to see how E85 would perform in my bike. Would it matter if my bike uses CV carbs? (a 1996 Honda Magna)

Neoprene carb parts not-with-standing, CV carbs would not be a problem. You can rejet them, too. They just have a little different throttle control, works off vacuum in the carb throat controlled by the butterfly instead of directly opening the slide with the throttle. This is an EPA thing, doesn't run rich when the throttle is dumped open before air flow gets moving good.

Like I say, I'm going to play with the little 200 first. Parts are cheap to replace and it's easy to pull the carb on. That OldWing is a PITA. But, I'm going to try it 'cause alcohols are water solvents, not organic solvents. I fail to see how they could stiffen or otherwise effect diaphrams and O rings, let alone gas lines. But, I'll find out on the easy bike to play with first. LOL! I mean, I could be wrong and if I am, I'd rather not have to buy four carb kits for the Wing.

Actually, there isn't a lot of rubber in the slide carb on the 200. It's got an O ring around the float bowl and the floats are foam. I doubt ethanol would have any effect on polystyrene closed cell foam. I guess I could get an old carb out of the shop and pull the rubber parts and test 'em in everclear. In the CV carbs on my other two bikes, the diaphram never touches fuel.

The gas line from the tank I can replace with Tygon. We used that in labs on all sorts of chemical processes when I was working in process research for Dow Chemical. It's some tough stuff, but gasoline will eventually harden it. It's quite cheap to replace, though. You can buy it at ACE hardware, even use re-enforced tygon for lines to my oil cooler on the flat tracker.

 

[Lupinus]

I'm tired of it, its not simply the oil guys, it isn't simply the refineries either. It's a combination of a lot of things put together along with greed. A free market is great, but it goes with the notion of responsible people at the top not to stick it to the people and be uber greedy which the guys at the top of the companies are. Profits have never been so high for the CEO's and higher ups of the major companies like Exxon and the like. I've even given up my Camaro and started driving the mini van in its place. My store has an express gas station out front and we actually were selling at a loss the other day.

I'd like to see ethanol start being used. Most engines need no modification to run a mixture, almost all can run up to a believe 15% ethanol even ones from the 80's. IIRC in the Midwest all gas already is a blend with ethanol in it. Higher then that and any engine can still use it but will need certain censors changed, I believe the oxygen sensor but I could be wrong on exactly which one. But other then that they can use ethanol, only problem is that it is more corrosive if I remember correctly. Build a few more refineries, drill more at home, and pump out ethanol to mix in with it and I think it will help short term.

Long term though hydrogen fuel cells are our best bet. Can refine it strait from water which means no infrastructure problems they could even refine it right on site at the station or at local centers for the stations they can't afford it. It's zero emission and efficient. Hybrids only do so much, ethanol still requires a large infrastructure, electrics do nothing because you just shift the need to the power plant, and bio diesel while cool wont work on a large scale. So hydrogen fuel cells are our best bet I think and over the next decade or two I think the cost will become more affordable and they will become common place. I've even seen plans for units at a house that are set up, use water, and produce electricity at your house and takes up a little more room then a large A/C unit. It collects rain water and since the emission is H20 refuels itself for the most part only needing minimal replacement.

 

[Ivy Mike]

Lupinus, Hydroden still needs to be produced from water. What about areas that are having trouble supplying water already? Thats a huge drain on water sources.

Ethanol could use most of the same infrastructure we already have in place. Biodiesel simply requires enough crop to actually create it. If there is enough demand, you simply start growing oil seed crops and viola, biodiesel production picks right up.

Hydrogen fuel cells in mass use are a long way off and I feel will probably prove to be impractical. Ethanol and biodiesel will work right now. Fuel cells will require not only all new infrastructure, but will prove obsolete with a bit more development in battery technology which is almost required to make fuel cells economical.

Solar power will be the future.

 

[roscoe]

In terms of inflation and the buying power of the dollar, today's gasoline at three bucks a gallon is right on target in comparison to other consumables. That is, for the past ten years or so gasoline has been underpriced.

It is important to remember that. We have no right to cheap gas. If you don't want it at $3.10 a gallon, don't buy it. It's a free market. Get a horse.

Besides, we are paying for it with blood and treasure right now in the Middle East.

 

[MCgunner]

For personal transportation, I believe the electric car with availability of the infrastructure and some standardization is the way. Just drive into your gas station and swap batteries for a fresh one. You'll pay a battery use fee or something and the battery goes on the charger, or something like that. This would work for trips. Around town, the new Lithium-ion battery technology is already there for quick recharging and good range. Read the link I put in this thread in a previous post. It's here, now! It just needs some infrastructure

We'll still need to address towing and transport, though, and biodiesel is perhaps the answer for big rigs at least in the short term. Tractors, semis, trains, all sorts of things that batteries can't directly answer. Heck, we could use solar cells to charge our batteries up during the day, keep the load off the grid. There's all sorts of possibilities with the new battery technology.

H2 takes a whole heck of a lot of complicated infrastructure change that I don't think would get done too soon even if vehicles came available. It could be burned, as someone pointed out, in IC engines, though. Why bother with fuel cells????? I'm asking cause I don't know why it's such a push. Perhaps the energy of H2 is low? Heck, it powers rockets when mixed with liquid O2.

 

[Ivy Mike]

MCgunner, the infrastructure that would be needed for hydrogen makes it prohibitive right now considering the power output we get from it. I think there are still advances to be gained from the internal combustion engine.
for a little food for thought, read this. http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060227/FREE/302270007/1023/THISWEEKSISSUE
Notice who built the thing and see if the name rings any bells.


Anyway, to be a bit more on-topic, we're going to have to see some sort of change to reduce dependence on foreign oil. For too long, our farms haven't been profitable and its time to change that. We've got the tools and the technology. Lets start writing letters and get this thing moving.

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

Ultimately we are going to need more nuclear power to generate the electricity needed to make any sort of alternate fuel viable, whether that is ethanol, biodiesel, or hydrogen. I'm not keen on nuclear because no one has figured out to do with the waste, but I don't see any other options.

 

[Lupinus]

Lupinus, Hydroden still needs to be produced from water. What about areas that are having trouble supplying water already? Thats a huge drain on water sources.

Durring the process of using the fuel cell water is produced as an emmision. Once you got the initial water it would be resupplied mostly by the process itself when the fuel cell produces electricity. In a closed system this means minimal need for new water. It wouldn't be that hard and even in more dry areas like the southwest could be done easily enough.

Ethanol could use most of the same infrastructure we already have in place. Biodiesel simply requires enough crop to actually create it. If there is enough demand, you simply start growing oil seed crops and viola, biodiesel production picks right up.

True it can be used right now, but you still need parts on the cars changed. Plus you mentioned the water issue, to ferment ethanol you would need lots of water to mix with the grain. You are basically brewing up low quality super high proof really crappy tasting whiskey. So you still have the water issue, and you need to build up all new infastructure in order to brew such large ammounts of ethanol and distill it as well as to grow all the needed grain. With hydrogyn you don't need infastructure it can be produced right on site at the station, the station could even run itself off of the same unit that produces hydrogyn for your car. As for biodiesel it would be easier to use ethanol on a large scale. For biodiesel you first need to refine the crop to oil, then agian into biodiesel, plus at colt temperatures biodiesel tends to set up much more then regular diesel. Ehtanol is better for production, biodiesel is better left to recycling french fry soup.

Hydrogen fuel cells in mass use are a long way off and I feel will probably prove to be impractical. Ethanol and biodiesel will work right now. Fuel cells will require not only all new infrastructure, but will prove obsolete with a bit more development in battery technology which is almost required to make fuel cells economical.

Problem with that is you don't need new infastructure for hydrogyn since agian, you can produce it on site. With batteries you still need something making the power to begin with which is why right now electric cars are useless.

Solar power will be the future.

Think it will be a combination of that, wind, and hydrogyn power. I was watching a this old house episode where they went to a homes of the future thing. I've mentioned the house with the hydrogyn fuel cell making its power and to elaborate. The house collected rain water to use for refining into hydrogyn. It also had solar pannels which provided two things, power when it did happen to be nice and sunny, as well as the electricity to start the refining process of hydrogyn from water and a fuel cell then made power making water which went back into the system making it a very effeciant system requiring no outside water. The hydrogyn was stored and used with conditions depending if the house used all solar all hydrogyn or a combo. It would be kind of cool to see a car going down the highway with a fuel cell, solar pannels, and a hood scoop for a little mini windmill

 

[JMag]

Am I the only one out there who believes that we have yet to optimize current gasoline engines to maximize mileage? There has to be some way to further tap into the energy potential of a single gallon of gasoline.

Now, if some genius would come up with the answer...

 

[Lupinus]

we have been trying to do that for years and where has it got us? Cars are much more expensive now then years ago even when inflation is taken into acount. Along with goverment orgs, a bunch of different local blends, etc.

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

The real problem is that we drive too much. Improving fuel mileage is important, but it is sort of like shoveling snow in a blizzard. I wasn't joking about getting all the incompetent drivers off the road. Right now a lucky chimpanzee could get a driver's license in the U.S. Introduce some skills tests, a basic slalom and a reaction-time test, and I guarantee you will eliminate 60+ percent of our daily oil consumption. Develop a functioning public transit system for the incompetents. Then we can focus our fossil-fuel resources on transporting commercial goods.

This may sound like social engineering, but wait until the missiles start to fly in Iran and oil hits $160 or more per barrel, and it might not seem so unreasonable. Throw in increasingly violent weather caused by the burning of fossil fuels (the only scientists not in agreement about this right now are the same ones who claim that smoking tobacco is harmless), and we might become motivated to engage in this sort of social engineering.

 

[Tokugawa]

Art is right on, considering inflation gas is not out of line at $3 gallon.

Kodiaz, you misunderstand me. I am not a fat cat. I am a high school drop out who has worked his ass off his whole life, saved and built a home with my own two hands. The 43% tax rate I refer to is the AVERAGE tax rate paid by americans, including income tax, sales tax, property tax, gas tax, etc, add infinitum. 43% of all our income is sucked up by the Government.

Think about it this way- Somebody had to drill a well thousands of feet deep in a foriegn county, pump out crude oil, transport it halfway around the world, refine it, deliver it to gas stations all over the country, so we can buy it. One barrel of it has the energy equivilent of 25,000 man hours of hand work, and it costs the same per gallon as milk. This is why I think it is undervalued. Our problem is that we have become addicted to unbelievably cheap energy- in fact, our entire economic structure is based on it. Oil is largely responsible for all the advances in our standard of living since the late 1800's. Everything we do or produce is dependent on it. Think about a world with no plastics, no pesticides, no fertilizers, no heavy equipment, no trucking, the list goes on and on and on.

 

[engineer151515]

Solar power will be the future.

Solar power will only be a supplement.

If you covered the land area of the Earth and assumed 12 hours of full power sunlight on every square inch of land, you only just match the BTU power consumption in oil used by the US alone.


Its nuclear or bust.