Gave a lecture to a 9mm bigot today: Interesting type

Status
Not open for further replies.
My dream for this young woman is that she come back and purchase a Walther P22 and a G26. This way she can practice with a nice ergonomic and compact .22 and transition back and forth. She can build confidence and muscle memory and transfer it to a nice subcompact centerfire. Its a shame that most gunsales guys don't take that approach.
Create circumstances that are conducive to the shooter falling in love with the shooting sports , and they will buy more from you. Can't these guys think long term?:banghead:
 
40SW - "If it were me, I would have started her off with a Walther P22. Novices should start with a .22 and then move up gradually."


YEP!!!

L.W.
 
Yes it is, the .357SIG is on all accounts a 9mm bullet, but its riding on a necked down .40SW case, so you have alot more case volume in a .357SIG, so the bullet is riding alot faster, the .357SIG is obviously a high pressure cartridge, felt recoil is noticably more SNAPPY than a conventional 9mm.
Click to expand...

But, it's still a "little bullet", right?

(from someone who has shot a few thousand rounds of 9mm...)
 
If 9mm is so bad, why is .357 Mag still considered a decent round?

I agree with above. Shot placement is king no matter what you are shooting. Get something you can and will shoot and that you can and will carry.

This is exactly the reason I have a Kahr P9 for carry and will likely get a light weight .38 cal revolver. I can comfortably carry them.
 
What you did was good, but I would (and have in similar circumstances) tried to speak to the woman in question and told her that the opinions that she got were just that. Maybe you could have pointed her to Pax's site.
 
I do not use a grip extension with my G27. I feel that it negates the whole point of getting a 26 or 27 in the first place. Its a smaller weapon meant to be concealed.

That said, I can confirm that my very small wife (120 lbs) finds the G27 somewhat uncomfortable, and yes, 9mm would probably have been a better choice.
 
I agree that a 9mm is better than using some bigger caliber that you are not use to. BUT I saw a guy who had been hit 11 times by 9mm fire from LEO'S and he lived and was out of the hospital in 10 days. Ok so placement is at a issue but this same guy put one round into a officer with a .45 and they almost died and it was a broadside shot. I guess what I am saying is trauma plays a role as well as placement as well as condition of person shot. A 9mm will do the job with no doubts if the bullet is placed right. I think you did good.
 
Wait... an mouthy guy with no clue what he's talking about working behind the counter at a gun shop?!? You *must* be making this whole thing up! That *never* happens! :)

Nicely done!
 
I am wondering how many novice shooters were turned away and discourage from the shooting sports/CCW with lectures like the one I witnessed. Can you imagine being a newbie to firearms and being in her shoes.
Click to expand...

I was one actually. I looked on-line for a couple of months before buying my first handgun and also went to a store/range to talk to someone and shoot my final list of 4 guns within my price range. Having only shot a handgun one time before this, I was a definate novice. It soon became apparent, however, that the man behind the counter would only recommend .45 and did not have anything good to say about .40, or 9mm, for example. And even there, he only wanted to sell me the Springfield XD. Based upon the excessive advertising for the XD in the shop, I realized that they probably got kickbacks or other incentives for selling the XD over the other brands. Needless to say, I shot some guns, talked to some more people, and ended up with a different gun. It's not to say that the XD isn't a fine weapon, but it wasn't my first choice at the end of the day. Furthermore, the .45 was also not my first choice for my first handgun after comparing the different calibres. I'm still happy with my choice, and plan on getting a 1911 in the near future anyway. :)
 
If 9mm is so bad, why is .357 Mag still considered a decent round?
Click to expand...
'Cuz it's got 'mm' in it. .357 has 'Magnum' after it. :D
Of course, .357 got a lot of press thanks to the very good marketing of the round by S&W when it first came out. They showed it killing bear, caribou, deer... all kinds of big critters.
The 9mm was underloaded in the US from the outset, from what I've read. The 9mm Lugers US soldiers captured in WWI had a bad habit of jamming, thanks to underpowered US ammo (therefore 9mm is garbage, and Lugers especially). Still seems to be the case with the .32 ACP round - the hot-loaded rounds all seem to be of European make.

Of course, the .357 has more options for bullet shape, and generally higher velocities than standard 9mm. The massive case allows a wide variety of loads, and a very large variety of bullet weights.
 
He was actually very receptive. ,even appologetic
Click to expand...
If you don't jump down their throat and treat them like an idiot most people are.

Yes it is, the .357SIG is on all accounts a 9mm bullet, but its riding on a necked down .40SW case, so you have alot more case volume in a .357SIG, so the bullet is riding alot faster, the .357SIG is obviously a high pressure cartridge, felt recoil is noticably more SNAPPY than a conventional 9mm.
Click to expand...

many people need the grip extensions to control the G27 better. That makes the weapon less concealable than the 26, which doesn't require extensions for the same level of control.
Click to expand...
Learn good stuff every day on this board!! :D
 
IIRC...Jim Keenan related a story about a Civil War officer who was struck solidly by an artillery projectile...and it didn't even knock him off his horse.
If that doesn't provide insight to the myth of "Knockdown Power"...I don't know what does.

Perhaps Mr. Keenan would retell it in hopes that this gunshop commando will see it.

The 9mm is a good round. So is the .40 S&W and the .45 ACP. If they're shot well, they'll all do well...but there is no Hammer of Thor.
All fail to achieve the necessary results sooner or later.
 
To my mind, choosing the 9mm as a self-defense round should be about like choosing oranges as a Vitamin C source instead of grapefruit or tangelos. Though the grapefruit may have an obvious advantage over orange in some ways, the orange still qualifies as a viable, effective Vitamin C source. Do we hear heated debates over the differences between grapefruit, tangelos, and oranges?
Click to expand...
Pfffft!! Anyone with ANY experience with citrus knows that limes are the preferred vitamin C delivery mechanism. And if anyone asks that's what I tell them every time. I don't want someone trying to put an orange slice in their Tecate on my conscience.
 
So this gentlemen behind the counter was telling a prospective customer who was looking to get a Glock 26 in 9mm that she was wasting her time with such a weak caliber, he proceeded to hand her a model 27 in .40SW without asking probing questions about her proficiency level and experience. Obviously there is a measurable difference in felt recoil, especially to novice shooters, he then proceeded to bash the 9mm and its history, aka the Miami shooting, other police engagements in large agencies who use it,, like NYC, its lack of stopping power. ,etc.

I just stood there and watched, the poor girl looked more confused than ever and eventually said she would think about it. I felt bad for her, but did not butt in, not my store, would not want that done to me, but after she left I politely offered a civilized lecture to the guy behind the counter.
Click to expand...
What a salesperson. A customer came in knowing what she wanted and he talked her out of buying it from him.

IIRC, my wife got a similar spiel from a guy at the first gun shop we visited when she was shopping for her own gun. Needless to say, she bought her Glock elsewhere. And when she walked into that gun shop, she knew exactly what she wanted--a Glock 26, a set of Trijicons, and installation of the new sights for her.

You handled the situation perfectly, I think. I just feel badly for the woman, and I hope she comes back to get her G26.
 
My thoughts are that the problem with opinions is that everyone has one.

When asked for , they are not a bad thing , when not asked for, they are just another opinion.

My point ? It should be the sales persons responsibility to try to sell a customer the firearm they want - without giving opinion on choice unless asked. When asked there opinion, it should for the most part be explainitory in nature , and pointing out options, rather than driving to a specific "this is what you want" point.
 
This is something that confuses me about gun stores. I don't know a single other retail industry in which the proprietors will argue with their customer's choice in products. If the person wants a 9mm, give them a 9mm. The only time you should try to change their mind if its for something that is completely inappropriate for that caliber or type of weapon, for instance someone wanting a shotgun for long range shooting.
 
strat81,
Agreed.
I worked on commission and learned pretty quick to sell the customer what they asked for. Questioning their choice is questioning their competence. I've met a few people who could gentle someone into a marginally better choice but the effort was usually not worth it. Fortunately we didn't carry any of the crap products.

I'm the person that loves to look and ask questions but when I finally come into buy I whip out the credit card and point. ;)
 
Excellent feedback everyone, it brings up an interesting point about gunshop etiquette and protocol. My contention has always been that if you are in somebody else's business or home, well, how can I put this, There is a way to go about things.
Even though the gunshop saleman handled the situation very poorly, I tried to put myself in their shoes and trying to see how I would have felt if it was me behind the counter and a customer/bystander interrupted and butted in regardless of whether I was right or wrong. In retrospect, there could have been a diplomatic way of interjecting for sure, but I didn't want to take the chance of having both the salesguy and the customer look at me like. "what business is it of yours?", but I think I made a real difference with the salesguy. , albeit too late for the poor lady who either went to a different gunshop (rightfully so) or she probably went home confused and I hope she does not get even more confused by accidently bumping in into Marshall & Sanow groupies who will further confuse her by trying to convince her that .40SW did better against dead cow cadavers and that the Border Control's studies on car glass penetration showed impressive results. Can you imagine a novice shooters who just wants a comfortable and shootable pistol being bombarded with momentum and energy dump theories.
Futhermore, besides gunshop etiquette questions, the other main question
is the question of gunshop employee qualifications. Obviously if you take large chains out of the equation like Gander Mountain, Cabellas, etc, most gunshops are family run and obviously nepotism trumps qualifications. You often don't have the most qualified people working at gunshops, so its a good idea to give them a litmus test, I am not saying to give them a written quiz, but there is a subtle way to probe and see if you are dealing with a firearms professional vs. a mall ninja.
 
Good job, OP. Information is king in sales, and there simply are times when sales people are mis-informed. I started out on 40cal simply because I didn't believe the 9mm was an effective stopper (before I was enlightened by folks here). 40 is not for the weak of heart or small hands (yrmv). I usually recommend people start on a 22, but if they're only looking for one handgun, I tell them to go with a 9mm.

As sales go, I do not work on commission, and due to my limited selection of long guns, I occasionally send people elsewhere based on their needs. One woman came in looking specificly for a shotgun. I showed her the ones I had, explained their features, and eventually she menioned it was going to be mostly for HD. That changed everything. I explained that a full-length in close quarters was more cumbersome, provided more risk to being disarmed, etc... I then recommended my usual shop for my firearms because I knew they had the Remington 870 HD's on sale. She put one of mine on layaway in case she didn't like the one she was going to check out, then came back later, cancelled (store keeps a fee), and thanked me for my recommendation.
Go ahead, call me dumb for missing a sale over the debatable effective barrel length, but for something like HD, the right tool for the right job.
 
have had well over 1000 students as an NRA certified firearms instructor
Click to expand...

Wow!

:salute:

I would have slipped her my card on her way out, and said if she came to my class she could try out anything she wanted.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

G
  • Locked
Proud of my wife today
2
Replies
33
Views
2K
Tomcat47
T
C
  • Locked
Argument with a coworker today
Replies
4
Views
638
American_Pit_Bull
A
M
  • Locked
"prop" gun misshap
2
Replies
27
Views
2K
Slamfire
Slamfire
S
  • Locked
people at photo lab gave my mom a hard time
2 3 4
Replies
97
Views
7K
sandy4570
S
M
  • Locked
my experience at the gun show
2
Replies
34
Views
2K
Madcap_Magician
M
Back
Top