Glaser Safety Slugs/MagSafe

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Stopping Power/One Stop Shots/ Other Projections - stop, I have a headache already.

From what I've heard, people shot by handguns have about an 80% survival rate.

But what about the Glasers and MagSafes? Does their alleged potency and multiple wound channels result in a difference? Years ago I heard stories of their use resulting in death more often than not. Now we have had time for more usage, how does their survivability compare to other ammunition? Anyone know?
 
I have often wondered that too, as it seems the tissue damage caused by such a round would be difficult to repair and prone to complications (infection, et al). Though that doesn't directly correlate to stopping power, I would imagine they may "ultimately" be more deadly.

I just don't like the shallow penetration a pre-frangible offers, especially after common tactical barriers ranging from auto glass to heavy clothing.
 
You have to pentrate far enough to hit something:

Mag Safe 50gr Mini Glock 9MG G-17 1,184 4.5" pentration
Mag Safe 60gr Defender 9D G-17 1,693 8.7"

Winchester 115gr jhp USA9JHP G-19 1,192 15.4"
 
When I was in college and Glasers were relatively new, I fell for them, hook, line and sinker. Glad I never had to shoot anybody. I read an article by Dr. Fackler in 1988, talked to a couple of surgeons I knew since I was a kid, and started carrying real bullets.

Now I look at sectional density, velocity, and mass of the projectile - and I sort of assume that any modern premium projectile is at least as effective as the best hollowpoints they had in the late '80s.

I may be wrong, but that's what I've done.
 
:
when Jack Cannon died, in the early
80's (shot himself in the heart with a 380 Glaser, as a last testimonial to his faith in his product
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yikes
 
Since a well respected company like Cor-Bon, that is noted for it's excellent line of self-defense and hunting ammunition, thought well enough of Glaser to buy the company and continue making the product there just might be something to it.

As for gelatin penetration the main reason ballistic gellatin is used is because a hollow point bullet fired into it ends up expanding in a similar manner as the same bullet expanded in flesh. Depth of penetration is NOT the same. It's a MIGHTY big person who is 15" deep.

Isn't it a possibility that some non-hollow point expanding ammunition and/or pre-fragmented ammunition might behave differently in Gell-O than in flesh?
 
As for gelatin penetration the main reason ballistic gellatin is used is because a hollow point bullet fired into it ends up expanding in a similar manner as the same bullet expanded in flesh. Depth of penetration is NOT the same. It's a MIGHTY big person who is 15" deep.
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Prior to adopting 10% ordnance gelatin for terminal ballistics testing the FBI compared results in properly prepared and calibrated ordnance gelatin with over 200 shootings and found terminal performance (penetration, expansion and fragmentation) in both mediums were similar.

The largest independently verified and validated study of comparative penetration depth in ordnance gelatin versus human tissues, by San Diego PD Criminologist Gene Wolberg, also shows average penetration performance to be about the same, although the range of penetration is greater in human tissues than gelatin, which is expected given various tissue densities (which matters only when penetration velocity decreases to less than 600 fps).

As for 15-inch thick people, a bullet that first passes through an arm before it hits and penetrates the torso can lose as much as 30% of its penetration potential. Hence a bullet that normally penetrates 14-inches may penetrate less than 10-inches total in this particular situation. A bullet may also have to negotiate an unusually deep penetration path to reach and damage vitals. This can be the case when a shooter is knocked to the ground and fires upward at an attacker looming over him. In addition, an attacker might be overweight or be of unusually heavy muscular build.

Isn't it a possibility that some non-hollow point expanding ammunition and/or pre-fragmented ammunition might behave differently in Gell-O than in flesh?
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Properly prepared and calibrated ordnance gelatin duplicates the shear forces and inertial forces of human soft tissues in general. These are the forces that act on a bullet during penetration and cause it to upset.

Fackler is full of it. He claims a Glaser 357 to the stomach would take days to result in your death. Any surgeon should certainly know that the stomacarea is heavily laced with blood vessels. A 1" hole in you, even if it is "only" 4" deep, is highly likely to bleed you out in short order.
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I'm unaware of any experienced and knowledgeable hunter who advocates aiming at the "stomach area". The reason is because gut shots, even with a centerfire rifle bullet that fragments as it expands (producing greater wound trauma than a .357 Glaser) are ineffective and cruel.
 
Shawn, you miss the point. We are talking about taking him with you.

We aren't talking about stopping power. We are talking about the survivability of the Glaser and MagSafe.

It is reasonable to go with the most effective stopping rounds.

But it may also seem practical if you get to the bottom of the magazine, if he's still mobile and you are going down, loading the last couple rounds with frangible ammo might assure that if you lose, you take him with you.

So per Fackler the cause of death may be peritonitis 4 days later. If he's dead, he isn't going to victimize anyone else.
 
I have some Glasers, I bought them before "everyone" said they suck.:rolleyes: Even though when I got them I wasn't quite the armchair ballistician I am now :), I still had enough sense to realize that they had a limited use.

I have had them in .45ACP and .44 Special. These larger calibers have decent weight and penetration to them. In .45 I loaded one Glaser in the chamber. My reasoning was a) my first shot is the one most likely to miss (not that I plan on missing!) and this would reduce/eliminate ricochets, and b) the Glaser if it hits him will guarantee 100% energy dump into him. Since I almost always practice pairs in a defensive scenario, the Glaser would be followed by a standard HP a split second later anyway for penetration. Nowdays with the knowledge I have and increasingly better performing HPs, I don't bother with them anymore.

The .44 specials were for when I lived in an apartment and my .44mag was the only gun I had at the time I trusted to go BANG! when I needed it to. A .44 special gold dot (or similar) would be a good choice nowdays as well. I'm no Glaser apologist, I do however think that they, and frangibles in general, have some utility. They just aren't the "super bullet" the advertising makes them out to be.

As far as lethality goes...if you hit some "vitals" it doesn't matter if it's a HP, frangible or ball. I would imagine a lot of the 80% survival rate for HGs comes from not hitting vitals and a lot less shock effect from low power pistol bullets (as opposed to rifles.)

I would be interested to see penetration #s on the Glaser silver line...maybe they are more acceptable in larger calibers?
 
We aren't talking about stopping power. We are talking about the survivability of the Glaser and MagSafe.
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As so often happens, the thread drifted off topic.

I'm unaware of any trustworthy data that shows Glaser/MagSafe are ultimately *more* deadly than conventional JHPs.
But it may also seem practical if you get to the bottom of the magazine, if he's still mobile and you are going down, loading the last couple rounds with frangible ammo might assure that if you lose, you take him with you.
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An interesting thought indeed, but it appears all one can do is speculate. Assuming you manage to hit what you're shooting at, regardless of bullet type, survivability depends entirely on what the bullet hits and the amount of damage inflicted. A hit to the liver will probably be less survivable, both immediately (blood loss) or eventually (organ failure), than a hit to the shoulder that damages mostly muscle tissue. In a running gunbattle we have little control over the exact tissues damaged from any given hit we inflict on our adversary. It depends on specific circumstances present at the time the hit is achieved. Do Glaser/MagSafe increase the "window" of lethality? I don't know.
 
My limited experiance withh Glasers was pretty bad. I shot the .44 Mag and the .38 Special loads. The .44 keyholed badly and had severe POA/POI problems, even at close range. The .38s were the old flat points and seemed better.

I would strongly recommend firing some before carrying any.
 
When I first became interested in reading about ballistics and 'which load was best', I thought the 230 Gr Hydrashok was the way to go, mostly because of Evan Marshall. When I got a dedicated house gun that my wife could easily use if the need arose, I did some research and settled on a S&W 686. When selecting the load, a very high priority was lack of barrier penetration as we had one child (at the time) and well, that's the last thing I wanted to worry about though I obviously still wouldn't want to shoot the bad guy with her wall just behind him.

Anyway, I settled on 4 Blue Glasers in 38 Special followed by two 158 Gr LSWCHP in 357 Magnum... just in case. Thankfully, I don't know how effective the Glasers are. At the time, we did live in one of the cookie cutter housing additions so over penetration was a primary concern.

I know a couple folks that when carrying a pocket pistol such as a mini Beretta will carry one Glaser on the barrel and the rest HPs or FMJs. I've never been 100% comfortable with that personally. I think some of that might come from Jennifer 8 where Andy Garcia's gun (a 32 Beretta, I believe) was used to tear up Lance Henrikson in very short order - basically blows his hand off. And later John Malkovich tells us how when you get hit with a Glaser, you go down and you stay down. I think that if someone needs to rely on a 25ACP or a 32ACP, that whatever bullet is in the gun and is reliable is not going to make a whole hell of a lot of difference. But if I had to rely on Glasers or any other load in a 25 or 32, I'd want to have a very solid and viable Plan B.

As far as Glasers in a 9mm or a 40, well, I just have a lot of faith in Gold Dots and Rangers in 9mm and in both of those as well as Golden Sabers in 40. Enough faith that for my personal needs, I see no reason to even consider Glasers or MagSafes.
 
The instructor of my CHL class had the unfortunate experience of having to shoot a guy who was shooting at him outside a Dallas-area bank. (Some of you in the DFW area may have taken this guy's class.)

The instructor's Glock 27 was loaded with the ultra-high-velocity, lightweight, prefragmented cartridges. I don't know whether they were Glasers or Magsafes.

Anyway, he fired two shots at the other guy, both hitting him center mass. The guy dropped immediately and died on the spot.

In the course of preparing for the grand jury proceedings and a potential murder trial, the instructor was able to see the autopsy report, which indicated that the two prefragmented rounds had essentially liquified the other guy's vital organs. So it seems that they were pretty effective.

By the way, the instructor was no-billed. The guy he killed had a long criminal record and had been trying to rob other people as they entered or exited the bank.
 
Strasburg Goat Tests

BTT,
simply because when I used the search here STRASBURG returned no hits......
Google has info as well as rec.guns
yerwelcomefolks
 
I KNOW OF NOBODY ANY WHERE WHO HAS SURVIVED A THORAX

Hit from a GLASER SAFETY SLUG. It may well have happened and was not brought to my attention.
The last GLASER shooting I heard about " evacuated the contents of the person's skull " according to medical examiner who I spoke with some tine ago.
 
Frangible Ammo

This debate will continue forever. In my pocket guns, I carry Magsafe standard pressure Defender rounds. I am considering converting to RBCD in 32 ACP. The key to stopping power is bullet placement. But when bullet placement isn't perfect, I like the idea to cause the bad guy as much pain and trauma as possible.

I don't care if the bad guy lives or dies. All I want him to do is stop being a threat to me.

If you take a 5.5 inch drill bit and drill a 1/3 of an inch hole in someone's chest, you can be reasonable assured that he will not be asking you to the dance.

Carry what you can shoot well and comfortably.
 
I like the idea to cause the bad guy as much pain and trauma as possible.
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The temporary cavity stretches nerves and often disrupts nerve transmission to the brain. This is probably why many (handgun) gunshot survivors report that they didn't feel anything when hit. Many report a feeling of numbness.
If you take a 5.5 inch drill bit and drill a 1/3 of an inch hole in someone's chest, you can be reasonable assured that he will not be asking you to the dance.
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If he's high on crank he might. Might even give you a big sloppy kiss too! ;)
 
I have posted this several times before but it might have been on The Firing Line.
I also saw some autopsy photos. We were having a class on gunshot wounds. Their effects, powder tatooing and all that. We were shown a number of photos from the local coroners office and we tried to guess what made the wounds and how close it was fired. On two of the photos I immediately answered: Shotgun at close range. Both times the wounds were caused by Glaser Safety Slugs in 9mm. Obviously both people were DRT.
 
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