Glock Kaboomed Next to Me Today...

[Hammerhead6814]

For all we know, the reloads had nitroglycerin in them. I really want to hear from the owner.

To everyone who is pro-metal: Put some over-pressure rounds through any gun and it will go eventually. Your telling me you've never seen a metal pistol kaboom?

Let me show you some things you may find disturbing:

Please Scroll down to "glockman9c" and his post.

Please notice the revolvers, Sig's, and even the 1911 that kaboomed! It happens guys. With every gun it's a possibility.

EDIT: The only thing I can't find is a CZ-75 or CZ-75b kaboom pic. I'm googling with the best of them, but they changed how the pictures are displayed now and I think I'm missing them. I did find an AR-24 kaboom. The owner also stated it had nothing but trouble.

 

[LawofThirds]

Yes but look carefully. The revolver failures are caused by massive overpressures, and the steel framed pistols absorb much of the explosion. Most steel guns are returned to good working order after an out of battery kaboom by the simple replacement of small parts (usually an extractor/ejector) and a barrel. With a polymer gun there's significantly higher chance that the damage will be done to the frame and your hand.

Also, glock's are know to a) occassionally kB from out of battery firing and b) have been known to have unsupported chambers in the earlier models. This combined with the fact that most LE agencies at one point or another has used glocks, combined with the +p+ and LE only loadings running around being run through these guns has combined to cause glocks to have a much higher kB count than other manufacturers.


Also: Accepting MORE faulty ammo from a reloader who already made a serious attempt on your fingers....that's like asking your muggers over for dinner so you can cook them a nice warm home cooked meal before they do a home invasion on you.

 

[Manco]

Kaboom can happen in any gun. End of story.

I don't think that ignoring probability serves any useful purpose, especially with regard to safety. While certain types of KBs (e.g. double charges, bullet setback, etc.) are equally likely to occur in any gun, some types, such as case failure in the direction of the hand and other live cartridges, are more likely with some guns than others.

The question is whether the overall odds of KBs happening are significantly greater with some guns than others. I think it stands to reason that older Glock .40 S&W barrels, which still constitute the majority in service, are lacking in chamber support to the point where thin sections of cases are exposed and can bulge very noticeably when fired. Obviously this indicates a high level of stress on cases. Brand new brass-cased factory ammo should in theory be able to withstand one such firing with negligible odds of a KB due to a failed case, but personally I would feel uncomfortable shooting reloads or non-brass-cased ammo in such a gun because of the chamber support issue. With newer Glock barrels or some of the aftermarket barrels, I'd feel a lot more comfortable because of the lower probability of serious injuries being inflicted on my hands.

This is not a matter of hating, but trying to understand the issues that each gun design has (they all have their own issues), and trying not to "tempt fate" with regard to safety. Although every manufacturer tends to give the same set of warnings in order to protect themselves from liability and litigation, in reality some of these warnings apply more to some guns than others. In the case of Glocks older than about three years and with stock barrels (especially .40 S&W), I'd take the company's warning to use only factory-fresh ammo seriously.

 

[Hammerhead6814]

Are you really telling me that those revolvers can be returned to working order??? Or that 1911??? Or the Sig???

They're missing whole chunks of the frame!

 

[Impureclient]

The only thing I can't find is a CZ-75 or CZ-75b kaboom pic.

I looked before they changed it pretty hard and couldn't find anything also. Makes me more happy that I just got one.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

I want to know how someone blew up that Marlin 1895. Short of an obstruction in the barrel those things are near indestructible.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Let me say it in a different way, Metal guns are more resilient to over charged rounds but not invincible.

 

[christcorp]

Hopefully even the Glockaholics don't believe that "Physically" the glock is equal to their steel counterparts? That is totally delusional. The whole purpose of plastic guns is to reduce weight and in some cases provide a means of larger capacity magazines. Structural stability and strength is definitely a compromise with any plastic gun.

 

[JohnKSa]

Well, that's kind of missing the point.

You could remove the upper from a properly operating Glock, hold the barrel and slide together and safely fire the gun in that configuration by pulling back the striker and letting it fly forward.

The point being that the slide and barrel, which are steel, contain the pressure of the discharge. The grip frame just provides a much more convenient handle than holding the bare slide/barrel and allows a feeding device to be attached as well as integrating a locking/unlocking mechanism for the barrel.

So the idea that a "metal" gun is more resilient to an overcharged round than a "plastic" one is not exactly correct.

Either gun contains the discharge pressure with steel components. If the round is sufficiently overcharged, the failure in either gun will be a failure of steel components.

One can make the argument that a steel grip frame provides a safety benefit in the event that the steel components containing the discharge pressure fail in some manner, but I've seen opinions on that go both ways.

At least one "expert" (a forensic engineer) feels that a plastic grip frame actually provides a safety benefit. Here's the quote:

"<Polymer pistols> have more give in the frame and require some amount of tearing to fracture, this dissipates more energy than a steel or aluminum framed gun given an equal BOOM. Also, high intensity, short duration impact will spall metal and the polymer will just flex and possibly separate, but they do not grenade. Not saying <metal frame pistols> are real bad in KBs, just that due to the plastic, <polymer frame pistols> are incredibly safe given a very unsafe condition."​

 

[Blakenzy]

.40S&W runs on average around 34,000 psi.......9x19 runs around that same number, maybe average around 32,000 psi.
It's not like we are talking about a the difference between a .45ACP (18,000 psi) and a 9 or 40. So, why no 9mm kabooms?

Maybe LaPlace's law of tension on cylindrical containers explains it?:

Wall Tension = ( Pressure[internal] x Radius[of container] ) / Wall thickness

The .40s greater diameter, greater tension on case wall. maybe the .40 also has a thinner wall, proportionally.

 

[JohnKSa]

So, why no 9mm kabooms?

The original 9mm Glocks (19 & 17)are pretty overbuilt. The old Glock armorer's manual stated plainly that they would operate safely with ammunition up to 43,500psi which is well above the pressures of any 9mm handgun ammunition I'm aware of--including all of the the 9mm+P+ that I've been able to find pressure specs for. That's a pretty big safety margin.

The Glock engineers used a good portion of that "overbuild" when they created the .40S&W Glocks. They are externally the same dimensions as their 9mm counterparts. Same outside dimensions but a larger cartridge means less metal in the chamber. So you have thinner chamber walls which means less tolerance for error--a smaller safety margin.

Another issue is that the .40S&W is pretty sensitive to setback/bullets seated too deeply in the heavy bullet loadings. Even a relatively small amount of setback in a 180gr bullet loading can double the chamber pressure.

 

[REAPER4206969]

Same outside dimensions but a larger cartridge means less metal in the chamber.

The .40 Glock barrels are larger in every dimension compared to the 9x19mm barrels.

 

[JohnKSa]

I got out my calipers and measured the outside chamber dimensions on a .40Cal Glock and a 9mm Glock. If there are differences in the outside chamber dimensions I'm not seeing them. There could be a difference of about a thousandth of an inch, but not much more than that.

But ok, I'll accept that the .40Cal and 9mm Glock outside chamber dimensions really are different in dimension at some level that I can't adequately measure with my calipers.

So to cut to the chase, I just measured the chamber wall thickness which is, after all, the relevant issue.

By my measurements, the 9mm Glock chamber walls are about 27% thicker than .40 Cal Glock chamber walls when comparing them at their thinnest points.

 

[1911Tuner]

Kurt...I don't know what caused it to let go. The owner sent the gun back to Glock and I haven't seen him since...so their findings are unknown. My best WAG is that it was a combination of a little too much headspace...a little lack of head support...a little bullet setback...and the aluminum cases. None of the above alone would likely have done it. When they all came together at the same time...kaboom.

As to reloading for a Glock...There's one point that I've thought about at length. I've known people who reloaded for their Glocks for years without incident...until one day, it happened.

I have a theory. Purely theory, mind you.

When a case bulges in the web area...even a little...it's been stressed beyond its eleatic limit, and therefore weakened a little. Resizing work hardens the area. On the off-chance that it becomes indexed in that exact position on subsequent loadings...it bulges again. Maybe if bursts and maybe it holds. Resizing it work-hardens it further. If it indexes just right again...the odds of it bursting are again increased. Maybe the 3rd time is the charm. Maybe the 4th time. Maybe it doesn't have to be indexed exactly...but with every reloading, the chance of indexing it at the weakened/hardened area increases. This may be the very reason that Glock cautions against reloads.

I'm not bashing Glocks. I think that they're good, solid pistols and perfectly seviceable, and perfectly suitable for those who like them. My issue with Glocks is that I can't make my hand wrap around one to save me...but that's a matter of personal preference, and thus carries little weight in this discussion, but I also know that incidents like this happen far too often to ignore.

Also, for what it's worth...other than the occasional failure with oft-reloaded brass...I don't remember ever hearing of this particular problem until the .40 caliber pistols entered the picture. I have friends who bought some of the first Glocks to hit the market, and they've been serving them well from that day to this. I'd tend to think that the .40 cartridge is at least part of the problem, if not the actual cause.

 

[MCgunner]

Case age can be a problem in any auto, but especially with those that lack case support. I tend to load my .38s until they crack, but autos, I usually pick up more cases off the ground that are once fired than I do my own cases. I never have a case for more than two or three reloadings, damned brass wasters.

 

[dom1104]

The .40 Glock barrels are larger in every dimension compared to the 9x19mm barrels.

ok wait, someone says the barrels are the same, then Reaper says they arent, then some guy measures them......

so who is right here? I am curious. I am litereally 10 ft from a glock 17 and a glock 22 but I am too lazy to go measure them.

 

[1911Tuner]

Case age can be a problem in any auto, but especially with those that lack case support. I tend to load my .38s until they crack, but autos, I usually pick up more cases off the ground that are once fired than I do my own cases. I never have a case for more than two or three reloadings, damned brass wasters.

By contrast, I've often kept recycling my .45 brass...all fired in 1911s and clones...until the headstamps were illegible or until they split. In recent years, I've gotten a little better, after discovering that the rims increased in diameter to the point of causing my extractors to gradually adapt and take a set. Then, when I started on a lot of new brass...I had weak ejection issues due to insufficient tension until I re-tweaked the extractors to work with the smaller rims.

 

[Manco]

I'd tend to think that the .40 cartridge is at least part of the problem, if not the actual cause.

It may be one contributing factor, although I haven't noticed a particularly high incidence of kabooms in .40 S&W handguns besides Glocks. The main factor, as far as I can tell, is specifically .40 S&W reloads in Glocks, in which case support has historically been an issue--a well known design issue, if often dismissed or ignored by some. In other calibers Glocks have always had adequate case support, and in other guns .40 S&W has generally been given better case support, and the number of documented kabooms in the latter is therefore much lower (sure, Glocks are the most popular .40 S&W handgun, but the disparity is significant). I don't think it's an accident or coincidence that newer .40 S&W Glock barrels have far better case support than older ones, and I expect the probability of kabooms to gradually go down over time as a result.

 

[dom1104]

ok I got tired of the non-information, grabbed the calipers and measured.

the thickness of the chamber wall on a 40 cal glock at its thinnest point is.. .081 inches.

a 9mm glock is .105

The outside dimensions of every point I could measure of the barrel, are identical.

So, take those facts as you like, but I think contrary to the information put forward here that the 40 cal glock barrels are larger, they are in fact...

not. That is misinformation. It does appear that they are the same barrel, bored out to 40 cal.

Take that for whatever its worth.

 

[Roswell_Kid]

"Take that for whatever its worth."

Use that existing tooling whenever possible!

Remember the first GM passenger car diesel, 1979, thereabouts? It was the age-old 350 small block modified for the 20:1 compressions typical of diesel. Modified, not engineered. They fell apart right at the 12,000 mile mark. Total disaster.

Thanks for the legwork, dom1104. No Glocks for me.

 

[dom1104]

"Take that for whatever its worth."

Use that existing tooling whenever possible!

Remember the first GM passenger car diesel, 1979, thereabouts? It was the age-old 350 small block modified for the 20:1 compressions typical of diesel. Modified, not engineered. They fell apart right at the 12,000 mile mark. Total disaster.

Thanks for the legwork, dom1104. No Glocks for me.

9mm Glocks are fine, maybe no .40 cal glocks for you?

It is a fine pistol, and easy to shoot well.

 

[Ratdog68]

9mm Glocks are fine, maybe no .40 cal glocks for you?

It is a fine pistol, and easy to shoot well.

Naw... for moi... no Glocks at all. They don't feel right in my hand... the angle of the grip just doesn't work for me. They've never appealed to me, at all.

 

[REAPER4206969]

That is misinformation.

Why do technical Glock threads always go sideways?

The .40 barrel is larger in every dimension.

1)This is why a conversion barrel is needed to fire 9mm in a .40.

2)This is why the .40's are heavier.

3)This is why the .40's have a clearance cut inside the top of the slide.

 

[dom1104]

the part of the barrel related to kabooms is the chamber, which is identical.

Thickness of the barrel wall doesnt effect anything going on in the chamber.

I didnt even bother measuring the "Tube" of the barrel, it wouldnt effect anything.

The "Square" part of the chamber is what matters.

Talk about sideways....

 

[REAPER4206969]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eMbPDQp6a4&videos=OT3JASKTO4A @3:43