Glock G30 Kaboom

[Shmackey]

Moreover, the frame-rail recall would be especially pertinent if that missing frame rail is the thing that tried to bury itself in the shooter's eye...

 

[bountyhunter]

Plastic doesnt have anything to do with it, bountyhunter... case support does.

You might try actually reading my post where it said:

2) The cartridge is so poorly supported by the chamber that a defect in the case means personal injury.

Glocks are notorious for designing in barrels with unsupported chambers and then latching onto the mantra: "It's the ammos fault." Well guess what, sometimes a bad round will get out even in new ammo and sometimes reloading presses are not perfect. The result should NOT be a bleeding hand and/or face. "No plastic for me" means I will never own a Glock.

 

[bountyhunter]

Glocks have loose tolerances and some have poor case support, I'll admit, yet I would have full faith in brand new, quality brand, factory ammo, or even once reloaded (by my own hand) ammo which I have visually inspected myself.

That's really funny because last Thursday when I went to the range, the guys had all of the new PMC ammo boxes out and were checking them. It seems they found a box of ".45" where about half the box had been filled with brand new .40SW ammo. BTW, .40 ammo will fedd into and stay in most .45 mags so some poor schlub who didn't know any better could have loaded it up into his .45 and fired it. You want to own a gun that is only safe with perfect ammo? Go for it, I'll stay with the steel guns where even accidental double charge reload rounds ruin the gun but still leave you with two good hands.

 

[Brad Johnson]

The gun is a different story, The mag blew out, the slide is jammed back and canted a little to the left and the left rear frame rail is gone. There is a small crack near the trigger on the left side.

I've witnessed several Glock KBs in guns chambered for .40 and .357 Sig, but this is the first .45 KB I've heard of. I'm a leaning a little towards an overcharged round in this instance given the relatively low pressure of the 45 ACP and the amount of damage to the gun - especially the missing rear frame rail

In the cases I've witness first-hand, all the guns were put back in action with nothing more than a couple of replacement trigger parts (and one needed a new magazine).

Brad

 

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Combat tupperware designed for new ammo. If you desire to save a few $ on reloads, do not buy combat tupperware.

Those "loose tolerances" and "unsupported chamber" allow the weapon to function in mud/dirt/snow etc. where other arms may fail.

 

[bountyhunter]

Those "loose tolerances" and "unsupported chamber" allow the weapon to function in mud/dirt/snow etc. where other arms may fail.

To anyone who actually cares, that is mixing apples and oranges.

Loose tolerances in the barrel throat will not cause a catstrophic KB like described. Even if the case ruptures, even a loose barrel throat will restrict the expansion of the case to a few thousandths of an inch and not allow unretricted hot gas flow down the grip area of the frame. Loose tolernces are not the problem, unsupported barrel throat areas are because a significant area of the case near the rim are simply exposed creating a situation where nearly all of the case is supported EXCEPT a small area which means it will rupture there and create a gas vent back into the gun.

As to why Glock barrels are unsupported? IMHO, they were stupid in the design. There is no reason a barrel must have the feed ramp cut into the area where the case will be to get good feeding. 1911's don't have this problem. Glock won't change it now because doing so would set a legal precedent which could be interpreted as an admission that the unsupported barrels were unsafe. So, aftermarket barrel makers offer Glock replacement barrels which are fully supported but Glock just keeps saying: "Nothing wrong with our gun, it's the ammo." Maybe, but they should make guns that don't take your hand off if you get some bad ammo.

BTW: I bought reload .40 from a company that got all their brass once fored from the local PD (so it was fired in Glocks). Once fired, top quality ammo: and you could see a slight bulge down by the rim on every case due to the lack of support. I never had a single round rupture, but I was shooting in a fully supported barrel (1911).

 

[Brat7748]

Let me see if I can answer some questions and provide more info.

1) My buddy is a college graduated (he can read), mechanically inclined (he owns, manages and operates an auto repair facility). He has reloaded thousands of rounds without prior incident.
2) Round in question was from a Winchester white box value pak that I picked up a Wally world a few weeks ago. Was once fired from my Dan Wesson Patriot 1911.
3) Reloaded on a Dillion 650 press. 3.6 gains of Hodgdon Clays powder. Copperized 230gr bullet from National Bullet. Federal 150 primer.
4) Factory stock Glock Barrel was in the gun.
5) His glasses were plastic impact “resistant†but not high strength safety glasses or shooting glasses.
6) Gun had been cleaned prior to going to the range and had fired maybe 60 rounds
7) Yes have discovered that this gun is part of the upgrade...recall...or whatever you like to call it.

 

[krept]

Interesting.

So lets say an all steel pistol with super tolerances gets a double charged round... does it just laugh and keep on shooting? I'd think there would be even more force applied through the magazine and possibly the grip panels. The energy has to go somewhere.

cheers

 

[Brat7748]

Ok now for some opinion and observation.

Could it have been a double charge? Sure “stuff happensâ€. Hillary could become a conservative too.

I’m no gunsmith and neither do I play one on TV; but would a fully supported chamber and an all steel gun have made a difference double charge or not? I suspect yes in several ways. In a fully supported chamber the case might not have fractured, i.e. no Kaboom. If it had gone Kaboom the mag might have been blown out in an all Steel gun, but parts likely would not have been blown back at the shooter. The rail likely did not cause the problem, but it seems to me to be a pretty good bet it was the rail that came back at him and hit his glasses. All in all not a lot of good to be said here for Glock.

 

[bountyhunter]

So lets say an all steel pistol with super tolerances gets a double charged round... does it just laugh and keep on shooting? I'd think there would be even more force applied through the magazine and possibly the grip panels. The energy has to go somewhere.

Depends on the gun. According to some gunsmith books I read: a 1911 with a carbon steel barrel frequently survives a double charge with no damage (if it is well built). A stainless barrel will typically show bulging (and may split) and will be ruined (it also may extend out far enough to damage the slide). For that reason, some custom 1911 builders don't use stainless barrels. Stainless steel used in barrels typically is not as strong as carbon steel used for barrels, although SS formulae can be tweaked and heat treated for strength.

The reason a Glock KB directs energy so forcefully down at the magazine and grips is simple: the weak spot is at the rear and bottom of the cartridge case, so it ruptures there which makes a gas port aimed straight down at the throat end of the barrel.... right into the top of the magazine and into the mag well of the gun's frame. If that built in "weak spot" was not there and the case ruptured at the rar, the gas would go out the rear of the barrel more evenly straight back and would be inhibited by the case to thraot narrow opening... reducing the amount that goes out the back.

The energy has to go somewhere.

True, but remember that big hole down the bore and out the front of the barrel? The gas is going that direction as well. If the gas motion is more restricted to the rear, more gas simply goes out the front.

 

[Highland Ranger]

I have several HK's (essentially problem free). I do not reload and I follow directions.

I was looking at buying a compact carry gun, USP or G30 and everytime I am about to order one I see one of these threads.

Do we have any facts here? Statistics? Or are we looking at a rehash of the one KB that happened and is making it's rounds AGAIN on the internet.

That 30 would be perfect, 10 rounds of 45 in a compact package . . . . . but I'm not willing to sacrifice my hand (or an eye).

Is there any way we can tell what the deal is here? Are we dealing with yahoo reloaders who triple charge a round and then complain or is this a common occurence? Has this ever happened with factory ammo?

 

[Brat7748]

Highland Ranger,

This happend Saturday April 10, 2004. See the posts I put up today Tuesday April 13. Its about all I can tell you.

 

[Grump]

Every single time... ... I've heard about a kaboom on a message board, the next sentence is "he was using reloads".

Then you need to get out on-line more. Check out the Dean Speir Gun Zone kB! faq. There are fewer than with reloads, but there ARE factory-ammo kB!s in every caliber above 9mm, and maybe even one or two of those (I don't remember any, just vague reports of reloads in 9x19).

Our last go-round involved the Portland Police Bureau or whatever they call themselves.

Bountyhunter:
Are we to believe that you've never heard of the reasons why IPSC shooters made the fully-ramped .38 Super barrel the "standard" for hot-rod Gov't Models? Even in .45, that gun has also done a few kB!s over the years. I've read a few reports that the grip panels splinter and cut up the shooter's hands sometimes, even with crippling results when tendons got involved.

And now we have some H7K USPs in .45 doing the same dance. I just don't remember whether any of those have also involved factory ammo.

The reason a Glock KB directs energy so forcefully down at the magazine and grips is simple: the weak spot is at the rear and bottom of the cartridge case, so it ruptures there which makes a gas port aimed straight down at the throat end of the barrel.

Well, every pistol I've ever seen that did not fully support the case walls (feed ramp cuts into chamber, common on .45s) had the unsupported area in precisely the same place. Glock series guns appear from my observations to have twice as large of an unsupported area. Just look at some of Clark's case failure photos.

We know so much, but so little of it seems to get posted after these reports of kB!s.

 

[middy]

Then you need to get out on-line more. Check out the Dean Speir Gun Zone kB! faq. There are fewer than with reloads, but there ARE factory-ammo kB!s in every caliber above 9mm, and maybe even one or two of those (I don't remember any, just vague reports of reloads in 9x19).

Yeah, I'm familiar with the site, in fact, I'm quoted there. The Gun Zone is not exactly a "message board", now is it?



I'm not saying that kB!s only happen with reloads, just that the ones I've seen posted first-hand were all reloads.

A double-charge will blow up almost any gun. Whether it was a double charge or a weakened case exacerbated by the lack of full case support is unknown. Considering how many Glocks are out there and how many rounds get put through them each day without incident, I'm more inclined to believe it was the ammo, but I am not a kool-aid drinker... it very well may have been the pistol's fault. From reports I've heard of pitted barrels and broken frame rails I know that there are a few lemons that get through QC.

I've learned enough about the Glock to know that they are not perfect, and to be fully confident betting my life on my G19. The combination of price, durability, ease of use, simplicity of design, reliability, and corrosion resistance is unbeatable, IMHO. Dean Speir himself isn't exactly a Glock-hater.

(No, Dean, disabling the right-click menu on your web page doesn't accomplish anything. It's just slightly irritating.)
And it makes you look like a punk for taking the image anyways. Don't do that again. Thanks, G Hill Moderator

 

[jem375]

I doubt if it was a double charge, most likely a bulged case that came out of the gun originally and was reloaded with a weakened case.....most reloaders I know check the powder level on their loads before seating the bullet...............

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

The root of the problem seems to be that glocks go blam! and dissassemble themselves in situations where other guns don't.

why is this? do they use stainless barrells? are the chamber walls too thin?


I agree with what middy says about Dean; I'm a regular subscriber to Combat! and he's one of the better gunwriters out there, and my boots are pictured on his website. (yes, those are actually my boots)

In any event, the glock needs a pip kit of some sort to eliminate the kabooming problem, ASAP.

 

[Grayrider]

This is what keeps me from buying another Glock (I have owned several in the past). Firing out of battery and lack of chamber support are simple to fix, yet they don't do anything about it. It amazes me that in this time of everyone sueing gun manufacturers, that Glock has ridden this out without a major lawsuit from someone who had a gun blow up with factory ammo. Perhaps they have just been lucky so far, but that cannot last forever.

GR

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

Grayrider, this is exactly why I decided to buy a Glock. I've read enough information about Glock KBs to fill a large novel, but nothing conclusive one way or another. I have to believe that in all these years if someone could prove a case against Glock, he or she would have. Statistically it seems to be too far-fetched to be the result of Glock's "luck."

Ultimately after such research I feel like I the anti-Glock contingent is almost like a religious cult trying to convert everyone to the church of the plastic gun haters.

Sometimes Dean makes some convincing arguments at the Gun Zone, then he turns around and shoots himself in the foot by making some blatantly hyperbolic statement that discredits his earlier statements in my mind. I end up thinking of him as just another shrieking street preacher in the cult of the Anti Glock.

Meanwhile I'll continue shooting my G21 until they pull its shattered remains from my cold, dead finger.

 

[TBeck]

Sometimes Dean makes some convincing arguments at the Gun Zone, then he turns around and shoots himself in the foot by making some blatantly hyperbolic statement that discredits his earlier statements in my mind.

Example, please? I think "hyperbolic" may be an exaggeration on your part.

Dean may be many things, but hyperbolic isn't one of them. I have known Dean and read his work for about ten years now. I have never read a statement from him to the effect that "all Glocks are bad." The man owns and shoots Glocks for crying out loud! Dean may not have much use for some of Glock's management, but he has never universally condemned the Glock product line.

Jeff Cooper is anti-Glock. Dean is a shooter who has devoted a significant amount of his life energy to warning other shooters that practices they may follow for other firearms are potentially unsafe to follow in a large-caliber Glock. He does not tell readers to avoid Glocks. He tells his readers that if they use reloaded ammunition in their Glocks there are certain steps that a prudent person ought to take to reduce the odds of a kB!

If some readers walk away from The Gun Zone with the belief that avoiding Glocks altogether is the easiest answer, that is not Dean's fault. It is the fault of a management team too arrogant to fix a flawed product because it means having to admit they made a mistake.

 

[Blackcloud6]

Sounds like a double charge to me. I did this once and blew my Systema Colt. Its easier than you think to double charge a pistol round on a Dillon than you think.

My Colt was put back together and I am shooting it once again.. Now I am sure to look into every case after the charge throws and i ensure nothing distractes me. I ahve caught myself making mistakes when my kids come and "hey Dad wanna see my nre toy?" and whatever.

Any pictures of the ruptured case?

 

[dandean316]

3) Reloaded on a Dillion 650 press. 3.6 gains of Hodgdon Clays powder. Copperized 230gr bullet from National Bullet. Federal 150 primer.

That's a pretty light load. Even if it was a double charge, it should have still been safe. I've shot 7.0 Clays with no problems.

A couple observations:

1) Anytime you shoot reloads it always voids the warranty. This is for all companies.

He saved a dollar on ammo and voided his warranty. Really good idea.

2) You buy a $500 gun. I buy a $750 gun I can shoot reloads through. I reload for $3.50 per 50. Even cheap smelly Wolff is double that. Are you sure you save $ buying a Glock?

3)

Those "loose tolerances" and "unsupported chamber" allow the weapon to function in mud/dirt/snow etc. where other arms may fail.

Funny to hear this from the crowd who bashes 1911's - which used to all be built that way.

 

[jimmyjoebob]

Glock requires a "waiver of intent to sue" to be signed before they will replace your KBed weapon, however you must send it in before they tell you about the waiver, that way they have the evidence.

Eventually someone will sue who has the money to go up against them, lord knows I will donate $$ if needed. But its a crappy design flaw that Gaston is making money off of at the cost of a pound of flesh.

 

[bountyhunter]

Well, every pistol I've ever seen that did not fully support the case walls (feed ramp cuts into chamber, common on .45s) had the unsupported area in precisely the same place. Glock series guns appear from my observations to have twice as large of an unsupported area. Just look at some of Clark's case failure photos.

Maybe it's blind luck on my part, but I own about seven autos and not one has an unsupported barrel (four 9mm and three 40's). Browning HP, Beretta 92/96, every 1911 I have seen have fully supported barrels.

Bountyhunter:
Are we to believe that you've never heard of the reasons why IPSC shooters made the fully-ramped .38 Super barrel the "standard" for hot-rod Gov't Models? Even in .45, that gun has also done a few kB!s over the years. I've read a few reports that the grip panels splinter and cut up the shooter's hands sometimes, even with crippling results when tendons got involved.
:

I don't shoot .38S because it's basically a 9mm loaded up to insane pressure levels IMHO. I assume they would be subject to case ruptures because of it. I know that Govt 1911's will KB when fed a double charge, but you are WAY better off if it happens in a fully supported barrel. The point is, a double charge is pretty clearly a preventable offense, but a weak spot in a case may not be visible.

 

[Grump]

First 10mm cases I ever picked up at the range with severe creases at the unsupported 6 0'clock position were fired in a Colt M1911 system. The brass was offset a full half-millimeter, or about half the case wall thickness. NOT Glock.

No lawsuits because like almost every kB! I've personally heard about or read about resulted in nominal damages, and the ER visit was covered by insurance anyway.

Not worth enough to litigate. Some combination of factors, IME, makes Glocks probably twice as likely to have case failures than other makes, but with no greater severity of injury. If I were in the management, I would argue for a PIP program, regardless of the probable fact that it would provide no real return on investment that the bean counters could find. My bet is that about 2mm more slide travel and dwell time before the unlocking surfaces engage, plus keeping the disconnect and striker safety functions well-coordinated, would allow the feed ramp to be moved back from the chamber to reduce the statistically SMALL incidence of these things that should not even happen without seriously defective ammo.

Any modern gun should be able to withstand the occasional bad round that the factories produce.

 

[Newton]

9mm Glock = good

other caliber Glock = bad

It's a simple rule that will one day save your shooting hand/eyesight/guy in the next stall.


Newton