Glock KB's, I'm concerned

[blades67]

I've never seen a Glock self-destruct, but I've seen a couple of 1911's that have. That doesn't mean that Glocks are better than 1911's, or vice versa, just that poop can happen anywhere.


Go shoot, have fun, repeat.

 

[OneShot]

Here is another discussion taking place at the 1911 .com forum involving three glock KB's in one day. It is mostly being blamed on the ammo.
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48566

 

[OneShot]

This is what happened From: TCIC/NCIC TAC (HCSO)
> Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 11:49 PM
> To: (HCSO) All Sheriff's Department
> Subject: Gun Safety Advisory - GLOCK Model 22
> Importance: High
>
> ** Attention All GLOCK Model 22 carriers **
> The following message was broadcast tonight via NLETS. Please read for
> your safety.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> FROM: HQC1, TO: APB DIRP 7732 HQCQ NLETS ROUTING: DATE/TIME: 05/19/03
> 18:08 ALL STATIONS APB SUMMARY 051903 1800HRS
> OFFICER SAFETY
> SHERIFF LARRY E KOPKO, WARREN COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE, WARREN, PA
> ANNOUNCED ON FRIDAY, MAY 16TH, WHILE ON A TRAINING ASSIGNMENT AT THE
> RANGE, THREE WARREN COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPUTIES WERE SLIGHTLY INJURED WHEN
> THREE GLOCK MODEL 22 WEAPONS EXPLODED IN THEIR HANDS. ONE GLOCK WAS
> COMPLETELY BLOWN AART, AND THE OTHER TWO HAD MAJOR DAMAGE DONE AS WELL.
> AMMUNITION BEING USED AT THAT TIME WAS FEDERAL 155 GR HI-SHOK JHP LOT #2
> 42W262.
>
> B.R. Jones
> TCIC/NCIC Terminal Agency Coordinator
> Harris County Sheriff's Office


__________________

 

[Handy]

Nice.



I shoot 9mm and .45, and I'm right.

 

[Gerald McDonald]

I used to work with a guy whos 40 Glock KB'd. Had about 500 rounds thru it, no reloads or lead. Dont have any idea what caused it and Glock wasnt too forth coming with info about it. They replaced it no questions asked or answers given. I had two 9's a 17 and a 34 who had several thousand rounds thru each with no problems.

 

[JohnKSa]

I've not heard of any kB!s with the XD.

If you want an extra margin of safety with the Glocks follow these rules.

Don't use lead bullets. Especially don't shoot lead and then follow it with jacketed before cleaning THOROUGHLY.

Don't use 180 grain bullets in the 40 S&W. Especially don't use the 180 grain bullets with aluminum cased ammo or reloaded ammo.

The problem with the .40 is really bullet setback. The 180 grain bullet loadings in the 40 S&W are very susceptible to LARGE pressure increases from only small amounts of setback. The aluminum case ammo is more prone to setback since the aluminum doesn't hold the bullet as firmly. Reloading without taking care to maintain a proper OAL or a decent crimp can also cause unpleasant situations. Repeatedly chambering a round can also cause excessive setback.

 

[Sarge111]

There you go, OneShot...

Spreading wild, unsubstantiated rumors......

The believers will believe, and the non-believers won't- despite a mountain of case histories. "Not properly documented" or some such reason. Some of us have been reading those TTY's for over a decade, yet the 'powers that be' keep right on buying them.

Things have evidently changed- because in the days of the wheelgun, if three S&W, Colt or Ruger revolvers had blown up during training exercises STATEWIDE- they would have ditched them in a heartbeat. The troops would have pressed the issue until changes were made.

I can't explain it, and I've been dragging a badge around for a long time.

 

[Handy]

John,

How were the three cop guns in the above message blown up by setback, lead, reloaded, 180 gr. bullets?

 

[surfinUSA]

I like the 40. From what I've seen it works as good as the 9mm or 45. It fits in a 9mm sized gun, consequently is easier to conceal. I don't find it to be anymore or less accurate in a defensive hand gun than the 9mm or 45.

As far as Glocks go, I never worry about them. Carry my 27 whenever I go in the swamp or any other place particularly nasty. Doesn't jam, doesn't blowup, continues to work even after falling in the swamp, everything is cool.

The XD hasn't been on the market in similar numbers, especially in 40, to be a suitable comparison to Glock.

Blasers have worked just fine in my 27.

Many manufacturers void the warranty if reloads are used nothing unusual about Glock there.

Anybody particularly worried about the safety of their Glock 23 can e mail me. I take it off your hands, I won't give you a great price (I can get one new at LE prices) and you pay the shipping, Hey I figure I'm doing you a favor by easing your troubled mind and a 23 would go great with the 27.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Things have evidently changed- because in the days of the wheelgun, if three S&W, Colt or Ruger revolvers had blown up during training exercises STATEWIDE- they would have ditched them in a heartbeat."


Oh?

Without investigating the root CAUSE of the problem in the first place?

Perhaps grossly overloaded ammunition, or ammunition that's been loaded with the wrong powder?

Been known to happen.

Matter of fact happened to the US Park Police in the 1990s. They got a deal on some 9mm ammo to be used for range qualification.

Only problem was that the first class that ran through the qualification using this ammo suffered numerous problems, up to and including at least two catastrophic gun failures.

Was this the fault of the firearm (they use the HK P7 series, by the way)?

Or was it the fault of the ammunition?

Immediately jumping to the conclusion that it's the firearm is just a tad premature.


Oh, the correct answer is, of course, that the ammunition was faulty.


The simple fact of the matter is that the quoted advisory message does prove what caused these weapons to fail. But, it does provide some possible clues.

The message speaks of the firearms being "blown apart" and suffering "major damage."

None of the Glock .40 KBs I've seen has resulted in the gun suffering major damage.

Typical scenario is that the case head would rupture around the unsupported part of the barrel. The magazine would be blown out, and normally the extractor would also be missing.

For a gun to suffer major damage, such as a split barrel or cracked slide, that's an indication that something much worse than a simple case failure was going on -- normally a severely overloaded round.

The critical thing is to understand WHY what happened happened, not just fixate on the end results.

If you don't investigate, and correct, the true cause of the problem, you're no farther ahead than you were in the first place.

 

[JohnKSa]

Handy,

Mike got it right. Federal initially had some quality/design problems with their 40 ammo.

 

[Handy]

John,

Read the message. The incident happened Monday.

 

[JohnKSa]

Where does it say when the ammunition was made?

I must have missed that part...

 

[Handy]

It doesn't, but what are the chances that department cops are practicing or qualifying with ammunition that is over a decade old?



Maybe back in 1990 they bought 8 million rounds at a good price, thinking that the department would never change calibers.

Maybe Federal recalled the bad stuff, stored it for a decade, then sold it again.

Maybe .40 is so close to the margin that ammo that is "slightly off" from a premium maker will tend to destroy a Glock.


Your guess is as good as mine, but this department has probably changed guns at least once since that questionable ammo was made, yet they have such old ammo still in stock?

 

[JohnKSa]

Or maybe someone like Kiesler's Police Supply bought a ton of ammo at a closeout sale, like they do all the time, and sold it to a Police department at a great price like they do all the time, and the department in question was one of the purchasers since police departments are always looking for a good deal on training equipment, and these guys went to the range to practice and were the first three guys to break open the newly purchased ammo.

Or maybe they've had another bad batch slip out...

This is SO cool! We're actually solving the mystery although it looks to the untrained eye like we're merely engaging in wild speculation!

Your turn!

 

[Handy]

John,

I don't think this incident is positive evidense of anything. I just don't think it is prudent to write off what happened in 2003 because the same ammo maker made some crap in the '80s.

Personally, I don't own a modern gun that I have ever heard has blown up. I'm sure it has happened, reloading insures that, but the point still stands that it is a rather uncommon occurance.

On the other hand, one can go on the internet and download any number of pics of the same models, in the same caliber of a certain brand gun.

There are so many excellent pistols and calibers available, I don't see the need to roll the die on Glock and .40. Even if we can blame it on some old ammo, what is to stop a new batch of bad ammo from making it into your G22?

You can go to +P pressures in any 9mm in any brand of ammo and I challenge you to find this kind of stuff going on.

Something is up! Why do so many want to just write this stuff off?

 

[JohnKSa]

This is what happened From: TCIC/NCIC TAC (HCSO)
> Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 11:49 PM
> To: (HCSO) All Sheriff's Department
> Subject: Gun Safety Advisory - GLOCK Model 22
> Importance: High
>
> ** No Worries All GLOCK Model 22 carriers **
> The following message was broadcast tonight via NLETS.
> Please read for your joy and happiness.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> FROM: HQC1, TO: APB DIRP 7732 HQCQ NLETS ROUTING: >DATE/TIME: 05/19/03
> 18:08 ALL STATIONS APB SUMMARY 051903 1800HRS
> OFFICER SAFETY
> SHERIFF LARRY E KOPKO, WARREN COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE, >WARREN, PA
> ANNOUNCED ON FRIDAY, MAY 16TH, WHILE ON A TRAINING >ASSIGNMENT AT THE
> RANGE, THREE WARREN COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPUTIES WERE >BLISSFULLY HAPPY WHEN
> THREE GLOCK MODEL 22 WEAPONS FIRED NORMALLY. NONE OF >THE GLOCKS MALFUNCTIONED, AND THEY WERE FUN TO SHOOT >AND ACCURATE.
> AMMUNITION BEING USED AT THAT TIME WAS FEDERAL 155 GR >HI-SHOK JHP LOT #2 42W262.
>
> B.R. Jones
> TCIC/NCIC Terminal Agency Coordinator
> Harris County Sheriff's Office

There you go. All better now!

 

[9x19]

Y'all are soooo silly!

Aren't they just!

 

[Handy]

Well, I'm sure you feel better. Got a .40 Glock, doncha?


I'm sure this was just another (three) isolated incident.

 

[Sarge111]

Mike...

"If you don't investigate, and correct, the true cause of the problem, you're no farther ahead than you were in the first place."

Tell it to Glock. If there are issues with specific factory ammunition, then Glock needs to at least make an effort to identify for their customers what NOT to use. If the issues are with their guns, they need to acknowledge that, and then replace or repair the faulty component BEFORE the gun goes 'poof' in the user's hand. I guess as long as they're still selling guns, they're not too worried about it....

"None of the Glock .40 KBs I've seen has resulted in the gun suffering major damage. "

If we were just talking about a blown extractor, I might agree- but the frames are coming apart on a good number of these and I'd call that major damage, since it's not something that the end user or armorer can replace. I've also seen an officer with what amounted to an ugly 'black tapioca' tattoo on his wrist from a 10mm going 'poof'. Oh, it eventually scabbed over and healed up, but it wasn't what I'd call a 'confidence builder'.

I'll agree that nobody has disappeared, leaving only a smoking hole in the ground where they were standing. The even bigger issue for me is that the failures are taking the guns out of service when they occurs. This is no big deal on the range, but it would be big deal if I needed 'Officer Glock' to shoot me out of a sticky situation, and his or her gun shot craps.

The point I was trying to make was that when a gun fails repeatedly during range exercises, those entrusted with officer safety should be taking appropriate action to remove from service any article of equipment which cannot be counted upon to work- and in the worst-case scenario. This is to insure that the situation doesn't repeat itself on the street.

You keep right on believing whatever you want. It's your money and your hide, and if you wanna roll the dice on getting the right ammo in the right gun on the right day, that's your business. My solution to the problem is to eliminate it entirely, and carry something else.

 

[lazhuward]

I asked my friend, Frankenstein, about this issue. He said, “Gun go BOOM, me no buy .40 Glock.â€

Keep in mind though that he’s just a reanimated corpse.

 

[mini14jac]

Reloads are the key.
I'm not relying on 3rd or 4th hand reports either.

Here is the story of a buddy of mine, who is a reserve deputy.
They got some of the first .40 cals for T&E. (they were LE, remember)
OK, so you've got a new caliber of Glock, and it comes with a few rules, right?
1. No reloads!
2. No lead bullets!

So what does my buddy do? Right. He heads home, and loads up some lead reloads . (I wish I was kidding. :banghead: )
At the range, he fires a few mags, no problem.
Then, there is a particularly loud bang.
If memory serves, the extractor hit his safety glasses, the mag blew out, and his hand was really stinging.

The problems:
1. With reloads, a double charge can happen. Jim thinks that may have been what he did.
2. Lead builds up in the barrel, because of the hex (or octagonal?) rifling.

The thing that cracks me up about 99% of the KBs?
You'll find this exact statement: "I had a few of my reloads....."

I owned several Glocks for years. .40 and 9mm.
I did not shoot lead bullets, or reloads.
I shot Georgia Arms factory reloads.
I did shoot the cheapest ammo I could find, including Wolf.
No problems at all.

If the AWB dies, (fingers crossed), I could see another Glock 19 in my future.
Follow the rules, and you'll enjoy the guns.
I do believe they are some of the most rugged guns made.
-And, I like the triggers.-

Edited to add:
When I had my G23 I was really worried about this. I did some extensive research on the web. What I found was, if you search enough, you will find evidence that every caliber, of every auto has KB'ed at some time or another.
I also found a lot of pictures of blown up revolvers, but that is another issue.
Bottom line: If you don't have confidence in your gun, don't carry it.
And remember, any gun, or any ammo can fail.

 

[stevelyn]

I remember back in the 80's when the Army was field testing Berettas and some had come apart at the seams. Then of course the rumors started flying about Beretta gets a gummint contract and they cut corners on the quality. It later turned out to be an ammo problem not a pistol problem. Although I'm not a fan of Beretta pistols, it does say a lot for the strength and quality of their guns. It took a lot of high pressure loads to make these things KaB.

 

[Handy]

Glock is "handling" the KaBoom thing in the same way they are handling the frame rail thing.

"It's REALLY unlikely, but if it does happen, we'll fix it without question." Yet, the frame rail failures seem to happen far more often than the failure rate Glock initially quoted.

Glock does not have a good history of being forthright about problems with its guns. They essentially field Beta tested the 21, and then issued a voluntary "upgrade" rather than recall for the ejection port issue.

My own personal Glock quandry came when I asked a tech just how much out of battery the Glock will fire. His response, "Zero, none at all, there is NO tolerance in that part of the fire system." Which is, of course, BS. All autos have a certain, at least small range that will allow the gun to fire within. Saying that the Glock has a zero tolerance "disconnector" is ludicrous and patently false.

9mm Glocks operate at the same pressure as .40 Glocks. Despite the wide range of 9mm ammo, including wildly overpressure +P+ subgun stuff that certainly makes it into some Glocks, kaBooms are NOT an issue with their 9mm pistols.

Now why should that be?

 

[usp_fan]

Glock did not handle my G22 kB! issue with out question. They did offer to sell me another pistol at factory cost. This amounted to $220 or so in 1997. I was a grad student at the time and this was our only home defense fun so I said ok and paid. I figured it was cheaper than buying a new pistol anywhere else at the time. I promptly sold the new pistol at a good profit and replaced it with the then new usp40 compact and have never looked back.

I would gladly own a glock again, but never in anything over 9mm.

Just my experience,

--usp_fan