Glock KB's, I'm concerned
- Thread starter OneShot
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Mike Irwin
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"If there are issues with specific factory ammunition, then Glock needs to at least make an effort to identify for their customers what NOT to use."
Well, the ONLY way to do that would be to issue the following statement.
"In light that ammunition production errors can happen at any time, at any company, to ammunition being loaded on any production line, for any brand, type, bullet weight, etc., and not affect other types of ammunition of the same caliber being made at the same time in that plant, or by other manufacturers, and that these production errors can, in certain circumstances, cause damage to the gun and/or injury to the shooter, it is recommended that no firearm be fired at any time by anyone."
The problems with weak case heads were sorted out, to the best of my knowledge, around 1994 with a redesign of the case being made by one manufacturer.
That solved case-related failures.
What can NOT be solved 100%, though, is the possibility of transient production errors resulting in faulty ammunition.
A single loading machine can suffer a mechanical failure, it can be set wrong, components can be incorrectly combined, etc.
There's no way for Glock, or for SIG, Beretta, S&W, Colt, etc., to have any way of ferreting out those sorts of situations, and it's unrealistic for shooters to expect the firearms maker to police the products of the ammunition manufacturer.
If it were a pervasive, on-going problem with regular occurrences, that possibly would be a different situation.
But, be honest here folks.
Has the rate of reported KBs with Glock 40s gone up, or gone down?
I haven't seen a VERIFIED Glock KB in nearly 6 years.
Before that, I saw them REGULARLY.
The situation with the firearms has been, to the best of my knowledge, rectified, and as a result the number of verifiable Glock KBs has trailed off sharply.
It took a number of years for the Beretta slide failure fiasco to die down, but for some reason it's taking a LOT longer for this issue to die down.
You know, within a 25 mile radius of me there are, as best I can determine, several hundred police officers who carry Glock .40s as their regular side arms, or did until recently.
I've been making a few calls to people whom I know on these police forces, and I've YET to come across any reported KBs over the past 5 or so years with these police forces.
I think it's very telling, though, that people are reading the above message and IMMEDIATELY fixating on the determination that it simply MUST have been the Glock that was at fault. It simply can't be any other mechanism at work. It was the gun, ONLY the gun, NOTHING but the gun.
That's unbelievably short sighted.
Well, the ONLY way to do that would be to issue the following statement.
"In light that ammunition production errors can happen at any time, at any company, to ammunition being loaded on any production line, for any brand, type, bullet weight, etc., and not affect other types of ammunition of the same caliber being made at the same time in that plant, or by other manufacturers, and that these production errors can, in certain circumstances, cause damage to the gun and/or injury to the shooter, it is recommended that no firearm be fired at any time by anyone."
The problems with weak case heads were sorted out, to the best of my knowledge, around 1994 with a redesign of the case being made by one manufacturer.
That solved case-related failures.
What can NOT be solved 100%, though, is the possibility of transient production errors resulting in faulty ammunition.
A single loading machine can suffer a mechanical failure, it can be set wrong, components can be incorrectly combined, etc.
There's no way for Glock, or for SIG, Beretta, S&W, Colt, etc., to have any way of ferreting out those sorts of situations, and it's unrealistic for shooters to expect the firearms maker to police the products of the ammunition manufacturer.
If it were a pervasive, on-going problem with regular occurrences, that possibly would be a different situation.
But, be honest here folks.
Has the rate of reported KBs with Glock 40s gone up, or gone down?
I haven't seen a VERIFIED Glock KB in nearly 6 years.
Before that, I saw them REGULARLY.
The situation with the firearms has been, to the best of my knowledge, rectified, and as a result the number of verifiable Glock KBs has trailed off sharply.
It took a number of years for the Beretta slide failure fiasco to die down, but for some reason it's taking a LOT longer for this issue to die down.
You know, within a 25 mile radius of me there are, as best I can determine, several hundred police officers who carry Glock .40s as their regular side arms, or did until recently.
I've been making a few calls to people whom I know on these police forces, and I've YET to come across any reported KBs over the past 5 or so years with these police forces.
I think it's very telling, though, that people are reading the above message and IMMEDIATELY fixating on the determination that it simply MUST have been the Glock that was at fault. It simply can't be any other mechanism at work. It was the gun, ONLY the gun, NOTHING but the gun.
That's unbelievably short sighted.
H
Handy
Guest
Mike,
The Beretta slide thing died down because there has never been a civilian slide failure. All of them were military. AND, Beretta addressed the issue, in part, with the FS model.
There are lots of Glocks, quite a few in 9mm. There are also lots of other brand .40s. But we're not talking about Glock failures, or .40 failures. For some odd reason, its Glock .40 failures that keep coming up.
You say the guns have changed. I haven't seen any evidense of that at all.
The Beretta slide thing died down because there has never been a civilian slide failure. All of them were military. AND, Beretta addressed the issue, in part, with the FS model.
There are lots of Glocks, quite a few in 9mm. There are also lots of other brand .40s. But we're not talking about Glock failures, or .40 failures. For some odd reason, its Glock .40 failures that keep coming up.
You say the guns have changed. I haven't seen any evidense of that at all.
Another interesting point in all this...
is that when the 10's and .40 became popular, cops in my area were buying any and every 10/.40 they could get their hands on, as they became available; Colts, Smiths, Rugers, Berettas, Firestars, A-75's- everything. As their range officers, we were immediately pressed into buying qualification ammo wherever we could find it- and it wasn't easy to find in those days. Funny thing, we didn't see NCIC TTY's on those guns cracking up, and this was when the brass was supposedly thin, etc. We were buying and shooting lotsa lead reloads from Ultramax and places like that, too.
The majority of .40's in those days were not necessarily Glocks, and the KaBoom factor was not widely known in that caliber until the Glock .40's came along. Maybe both the ammo and the guns are better these days- but the problem hasn't gone away.
It's the ammo? I kinda doubt it.
is that when the 10's and .40 became popular, cops in my area were buying any and every 10/.40 they could get their hands on, as they became available; Colts, Smiths, Rugers, Berettas, Firestars, A-75's- everything. As their range officers, we were immediately pressed into buying qualification ammo wherever we could find it- and it wasn't easy to find in those days. Funny thing, we didn't see NCIC TTY's on those guns cracking up, and this was when the brass was supposedly thin, etc. We were buying and shooting lotsa lead reloads from Ultramax and places like that, too.
The majority of .40's in those days were not necessarily Glocks, and the KaBoom factor was not widely known in that caliber until the Glock .40's came along. Maybe both the ammo and the guns are better these days- but the problem hasn't gone away.
It's the ammo? I kinda doubt it.
I seem to remember the Glock .40 being shown at the VERY SAME shot show where the .40 S&W made its debut.
In fact, I think their pistols made it to market at almost the same time as S&W's 4006 (one of which I bought when they first came out ~ an inaccurate little beast it was).
In fact, I think their pistols made it to market at almost the same time as S&W's 4006 (one of which I bought when they first came out ~ an inaccurate little beast it was).
You may well be correct...
on them being introduced into the market at nearly the same time; but lots of coppers were S&W addicts in those days, and the Smiths were certainly in the majority in my area. The void filled in with the others I mentioned, and the Glocks were actually about the last ones they warmed up to. Guess they got over that!
And you are correct about the Smiths not being terribly accurate- or at least easy to shoot well. I had quite a time getting guys qualified with their DAO .40's, back when they were all the rage. I had 'em shooting for score to 25 yards, with a bonus stage at 50. The poor souls with DAO S&W's were notably disadvantaged at distance.
on them being introduced into the market at nearly the same time; but lots of coppers were S&W addicts in those days, and the Smiths were certainly in the majority in my area. The void filled in with the others I mentioned, and the Glocks were actually about the last ones they warmed up to. Guess they got over that!
And you are correct about the Smiths not being terribly accurate- or at least easy to shoot well. I had quite a time getting guys qualified with their DAO .40's, back when they were all the rage. I had 'em shooting for score to 25 yards, with a bonus stage at 50. The poor souls with DAO S&W's were notably disadvantaged at distance.
H
Handy
Guest
But did the term KaBoom exist before the .40 Glock?
As ridiculous as it may seem....
I didn't even get ON the Idiotnet until late 1999, and then mostly just to see if it was gonna crash on January 1st like they said it would. I have yet to decide which scenario would have been the "worst case" example.
My first exposure to the term 'KaBoom' was on "The Gun Zone" website, and I am told that it was coined by Dean Speir (sp) to describe the phenomenon. I don't know when it first came into common use. Before that time, we just called them "blow-ups", "frame failures" or whatever NCIC was calling them in the teletypes.
Speaking of those TTY's, I can't recall at this moment a single instance of a S&W Sigma cracking up. This is particularly ironic considering that some of the major parts will supposedly interchange. I'm not saying that there weren't any mind you- just that they either didn't occur in significant numbers (relevant to the number issued/carried) or they didn't get the press the Glocks did. If anyone is aware of them in significant numbers, I'd sure like to know.
Fact is, I always kinda liked the Sigma. It pointed WAY better for me, and I got along with the 'revolver-DA'-feeling trigger just fine.
But then I'm getting old, and set in my ways...
I didn't even get ON the Idiotnet until late 1999, and then mostly just to see if it was gonna crash on January 1st like they said it would. I have yet to decide which scenario would have been the "worst case" example.
My first exposure to the term 'KaBoom' was on "The Gun Zone" website, and I am told that it was coined by Dean Speir (sp) to describe the phenomenon. I don't know when it first came into common use. Before that time, we just called them "blow-ups", "frame failures" or whatever NCIC was calling them in the teletypes.
Speaking of those TTY's, I can't recall at this moment a single instance of a S&W Sigma cracking up. This is particularly ironic considering that some of the major parts will supposedly interchange. I'm not saying that there weren't any mind you- just that they either didn't occur in significant numbers (relevant to the number issued/carried) or they didn't get the press the Glocks did. If anyone is aware of them in significant numbers, I'd sure like to know.
Fact is, I always kinda liked the Sigma. It pointed WAY better for me, and I got along with the 'revolver-DA'-feeling trigger just fine.
But then I'm getting old, and set in my ways...
H
Handy
Guest
Mike,
I never answered one of your questions. This is the frame failure rate from Glock, off the GSSF website:
"Within the specific range the breakage rate has been less than 0.0188%. "
Since we know there are police units with multiple failures, as well as a fair number of civilian failures, does a rate of 1 in 50,000 of just the affected serial number pistols sound right to you? Would 1 in 50,000 even constitute a recall situation?
I never answered one of your questions. This is the frame failure rate from Glock, off the GSSF website:
"Within the specific range the breakage rate has been less than 0.0188%. "
Since we know there are police units with multiple failures, as well as a fair number of civilian failures, does a rate of 1 in 50,000 of just the affected serial number pistols sound right to you? Would 1 in 50,000 even constitute a recall situation?
Big Boomer
Member
Seems still relevant to me.
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