Autolycus
Member
You got the better deal. If he pulled away and someone came up to your car to start trouble you would have been at a disadvantage had he disarmed you. You could have been killed.
Got pulled over; Officer took my sidearm.
- Thread starter Magic_Man
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unloved
Member
I live here. Haven't had any problems yet. I don't carry openly, but I know a few people who do (in Philly) with no problems.
Your attitude (i.e. defending unacceptable behavior by police) sure isn't going to help.
dpeticca
Member
OK
So "unloved", let me get this straight. Disregarding right and wrong and addressing it as a practical matter, what are you saying? Are saying that you would have disregarded the policer officer's instructions to disarm?
I'm not defending them so much as I'm saying, I can understand why it happened, and I would have no other choice but to comply or escalate the situation further by not complying, thereby endangering myself atleast as much possibly more than if by not giving up my weapon.
So "unloved", let me get this straight. Disregarding right and wrong and addressing it as a practical matter, what are you saying? Are saying that you would have disregarded the policer officer's instructions to disarm?
I'm not defending them so much as I'm saying, I can understand why it happened, and I would have no other choice but to comply or escalate the situation further by not complying, thereby endangering myself atleast as much possibly more than if by not giving up my weapon.
brboyer
Member
How do you think that starts?
Someone whose rights were violated did something about it. Sued the government!
PandaBearBG
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I live in NV and the same thing happened to me about 4 weeks ago. Accidentally "rolled" thru a stop (the road is under construction in a deserted edge of town and isn't even built, no thru traffic only people living there use that road) cop was hiding by the dirt piles at the dead end, pulled me over. My hands were on the wheel 10 and 2 and cop told me why he pulled me over, I informed him I had a pistol in the car, I have no ccw but my permit. It's required by law here to inform police if you have a vehicle with no ccw, open carry is allowed though. He asked me to exit the vehicle, stand in front of the squad car, no cuffs but quick frisk, I waited in front of his cruiser and he retrieved my pistol, unloaded it check my license and registration. I then returned to my car he placed the mag in the glovebox and reholstered and placed the gun in the back seat. Said thank you your free to go, make sure you stop at the sign next time.
Do I feel violated? No. Do I feel as vulnerable? No. I got off no ticket, I did not feel harassed no inconveinced. Keep in mind I was on my way to work, I am a large large man, work close is all black it was very late at night in an essentially no traffic area of town. The officer was professional, courteous, and business like. If he feels he needs to take steps to ensure peace of mind and 100% total safety for him during the traffic stop, more power to him.
Personally I'm a bit disappointed my the "hippy" my rights were violated "the police had no right" opinions. If you don't want the cops to "disarm" you, don't break laws like speeding or running signs or etc. If you want cops leaving you alone then don't give them a reason to stop you. Being a cop is a thankless job, people hate them for tickets or not acting fast enough but they are only human. Alot of officers have been shot out here during vehicle stops and I have no problem taking an extra 5 MINUTES to later retrieve and reposition my weapon. I'm pretty sure the cop will protect you in the 10 minutes your "unarmed" besides he let me off and let the original OP off.
Alot of people have CCW's but there are good guys and bad guys too that are legal. I guarantee that there are many CCW carriers who are "thugs" "gangster wannabes" or straight out serial killers. A CCW doesn't put you on a golden pedestal that makes you untouchable and can do no wrong. If cops want to double check what's the problem? If you are in an uproar about your local PD then just move to the mountains or somewhere else where shooting crime is non existant.
For instance there was a guy here an older gentleman, 51 legally allowed to own a gun, was distressed and desperate and opened fired in NY NY casino injuring 5, or Johnny Wicks, 66, who this year fired shots at the courthouse because his Social Security was reduced shot a retired 65 yr old LEO in the chest killing him. Another officer was shot multiple times chasing a car theft about a week ago here. Or the officer who got shot in his home here last November by teenagers. Cops get shot ALOT down here in Sin City and are rightly justified in being extra cautious, regardless of age, race, behavior, etc. This city always have new residents and is always changing, it's not a little town in Pennsylvania. I'd let cops take an extra 5 minutes to do check, they still let me off for my personal mistakes about breaking the law.
Take the case of Raymond James "Jim" Duensing last Nov, in a nutshell, he was a failed 32 yr old politician/lawyer who was pulled over for a minor traffic violation but was arguing with the officer because he was afraid he was going to jail for unpaid fine and tickets, who claims a officer tased him for no reason, when he pulled the taser prongs out of his chest took off running, the cop saw him reaching into his pants for a pistol, the defendent claims he was just pulling them up. The cop said shot him as he was running withe the gun drawn.
http://www.policeone.com/legal/arti...-by-Las-Vegas-officer-denies-pulling-gun-out/
If you read the link it says the officer asks him to step out of the car, and an officer usually doesn't do that for minor traffic stop unless you are acting suspicous or erratic.
Second who stands next to their car with their hands over their head, the officer also stated that he was combative and resisted attempts to cuff him. That in itself is a huge Blip on my radar that this guy is dangerous, especially if he is armed which the officer did not know yet.
The officer tased him 2x yet the Jim tore the tasers out and took off running, that is also extreme behavior.
the defendant also claims he was pulling up his pants, now what lawyer or politician or 32 year old man for that matter wears baggy pants like a 14 yr old who needs to pull them up?!
The office was 16 yr LEO said he fired on the defendant when he saw the gun being pulled from the pocket. A seasoned officer not some young new rookie prone to panic shooting or overly aggressive action.
Just inicidents that I say warrant officers taking extra steps to preserve their lives and safety. Leave them alone their jobs are hard enough already.
Do I feel violated? No. Do I feel as vulnerable? No. I got off no ticket, I did not feel harassed no inconveinced. Keep in mind I was on my way to work, I am a large large man, work close is all black it was very late at night in an essentially no traffic area of town. The officer was professional, courteous, and business like. If he feels he needs to take steps to ensure peace of mind and 100% total safety for him during the traffic stop, more power to him.
Personally I'm a bit disappointed my the "hippy" my rights were violated "the police had no right" opinions. If you don't want the cops to "disarm" you, don't break laws like speeding or running signs or etc. If you want cops leaving you alone then don't give them a reason to stop you. Being a cop is a thankless job, people hate them for tickets or not acting fast enough but they are only human. Alot of officers have been shot out here during vehicle stops and I have no problem taking an extra 5 MINUTES to later retrieve and reposition my weapon. I'm pretty sure the cop will protect you in the 10 minutes your "unarmed" besides he let me off and let the original OP off.
Alot of people have CCW's but there are good guys and bad guys too that are legal. I guarantee that there are many CCW carriers who are "thugs" "gangster wannabes" or straight out serial killers. A CCW doesn't put you on a golden pedestal that makes you untouchable and can do no wrong. If cops want to double check what's the problem? If you are in an uproar about your local PD then just move to the mountains or somewhere else where shooting crime is non existant.
For instance there was a guy here an older gentleman, 51 legally allowed to own a gun, was distressed and desperate and opened fired in NY NY casino injuring 5, or Johnny Wicks, 66, who this year fired shots at the courthouse because his Social Security was reduced shot a retired 65 yr old LEO in the chest killing him. Another officer was shot multiple times chasing a car theft about a week ago here. Or the officer who got shot in his home here last November by teenagers. Cops get shot ALOT down here in Sin City and are rightly justified in being extra cautious, regardless of age, race, behavior, etc. This city always have new residents and is always changing, it's not a little town in Pennsylvania. I'd let cops take an extra 5 minutes to do check, they still let me off for my personal mistakes about breaking the law.
Take the case of Raymond James "Jim" Duensing last Nov, in a nutshell, he was a failed 32 yr old politician/lawyer who was pulled over for a minor traffic violation but was arguing with the officer because he was afraid he was going to jail for unpaid fine and tickets, who claims a officer tased him for no reason, when he pulled the taser prongs out of his chest took off running, the cop saw him reaching into his pants for a pistol, the defendent claims he was just pulling them up. The cop said shot him as he was running withe the gun drawn.
http://www.policeone.com/legal/arti...-by-Las-Vegas-officer-denies-pulling-gun-out/
If you read the link it says the officer asks him to step out of the car, and an officer usually doesn't do that for minor traffic stop unless you are acting suspicous or erratic.
Second who stands next to their car with their hands over their head, the officer also stated that he was combative and resisted attempts to cuff him. That in itself is a huge Blip on my radar that this guy is dangerous, especially if he is armed which the officer did not know yet.
The officer tased him 2x yet the Jim tore the tasers out and took off running, that is also extreme behavior.
the defendant also claims he was pulling up his pants, now what lawyer or politician or 32 year old man for that matter wears baggy pants like a 14 yr old who needs to pull them up?!
The office was 16 yr LEO said he fired on the defendant when he saw the gun being pulled from the pocket. A seasoned officer not some young new rookie prone to panic shooting or overly aggressive action.
Just inicidents that I say warrant officers taking extra steps to preserve their lives and safety. Leave them alone their jobs are hard enough already.
Deanimator
Member
There are cops who are good guys and bad guys.
What's your point?
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
What in the world does that mean? "Bad guys" that are LEGAL? Then they aren't BAD GUYS, now are they? You're either operating in the law or you aren't. An officer has to treat a citizen with greatest respect for his or her rights until (and indeed, even after) they have probable cause to believe that that citizen has actually broken a specific law.
Panda, I don't mean disrespect to you, but that is one of the most absurd, completely erroneous, just PREPOSTEROUS statements you could ever come up with. It has been posted right in this thread (and/or the other one on the same subject) that CCW permit/license holders are convicted of violent crimes at a rate that is not only statistically insignificant compared to the general population, but a FRACTION of the rate that LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS themselves are violent offenders.
So recant, retract, or come up with SOMETHING to back up your laughable "guarantee."
Second, as brboyer posted just a few posts back, "So we have 25 million traffic stops that resulted in 63 LEO deaths ... that comes down to a 1 in 400,000 chance of a LEO being killed during a traffic stop."
I also like his conclusion and think it applies here:
SO you say, "Leave them alone their jobs are hard enough already." And I say, no. If "leaving them alone" means allowing them to violate my rights without protest and action on my part, then I shall not "leave them alone." A tough job doesn't get you a pass on upholding the law and the Constitution.
mgkdrgn
Member
Well, in the 15 years I lived along side I95 in Maryland, there were 4 there alone
cassandrasdaddy
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i think some bad guys ccw status never comes up. we have 2 shootings within 5 miles of me that involved guys with permits both guys went to jail one for murder.
brboyer
Member
And?
Yes it's a dangerous job, but that does not in any way justify violating the law.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
I should soften my statement a bit. I read Panda's sentence with an extra "as" in it which changed the meaning somewhat. (Like that there were as many bad guys with CCW permits...)
So, it isn't absurd or preposterous that there are some -- a few -- who get their permit but then go astray. The rest of what I said still holds true.
This is one of those topics that almost isn't worth the debate because no one's mind ever gets changed. I don't like the idea of the State reserving the authority to disarm a citizen to itself because it places a higher value on the life of the State's agent than mine. I'd say the odds are about the same of an Officer "snapping" as they are of a permit holder doing so.
That said, we could argue this until the cows come home and a certain segment of posters here ( we'll call them the B.O.H.I.C.A crowd) will loudly proclaim that that "officer safety" trumps my rights the whole time and no amount of argument is going to sway them.
That said, we could argue this until the cows come home and a certain segment of posters here ( we'll call them the B.O.H.I.C.A crowd) will loudly proclaim that that "officer safety" trumps my rights the whole time and no amount of argument is going to sway them.
Panda has a few technical inaccuracies.
Here is the only applicable Nevada law, quoted directly from the Nevada Revised Statues. A person must present permit and identification when requested. There is no obligation to inform if permit and identification are not requested:
Nevada law has no such requirement, with or without a Concealed Firearm Permit. Most firearm instructors recommend that you inform if stopped, but the law does not require it.
Here is the only applicable Nevada law, quoted directly from the Nevada Revised Statues. A person must present permit and identification when requested. There is no obligation to inform if permit and identification are not requested:
I read the whole thread. Here's my take:
The officer in the original post was about as unsafe as he possibly could be in relation to taking possession of the firearm. Both of his entrances into the car, first into the vehicle to retrieve the weapon and then placing it in the trunk, were fishing expeditions that would not have survived court challenges, even if he had found anything. He had no PC.
The officer in the original post was about as unsafe as he possibly could be in relation to taking possession of the firearm. Both of his entrances into the car, first into the vehicle to retrieve the weapon and then placing it in the trunk, were fishing expeditions that would not have survived court challenges, even if he had found anything. He had no PC.
scarredpelt
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I don't know how many have been shot by licensees, but at least one officer in D.C. claimed (on officer.com forums) that he had one take some shots at him.
If an officer feels he absolutely must disarm me for 'officer safety' by all means let's do that; so long as it is done safely and it is something you would do to a fellow badge carrier. But, when the stop is over and we are going our separate ways, I am leaving in the way that I came. That means fully dressed and he/she is gonna sit their happy rear end on the side of the road with their rear warning beacons lit to ensure I get back out on the highway safely.
divemedic
Member
Then he is likely a liar. How many LEGAL permit holders are in DC?
So you don't mind giving up your rights, as long as the person violating them is polite?
So your rights are dependant on the cops opinion of the crime rate in your area? It is my opinion that cops commit murder at a higher rate than CCW. You will never know, read is.
scarredpelt
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I don't recall the particulars, but the gentleman, like many people in D.C. lived elsewhere and traveled often to the city. He had a valid permit from VA I believe. Who knows the thoughts the of the person who opened fire on the officer.
[ETA Okay found the one of the posts over there, seems the permit holder had a warrant out and decided to press the issue.]
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So panda, you had absolutely no problems with this cop performing an illegal search of your glove box?
Where do you get off calling those of us who actually care about our rights "hippies"? Just who is the hippie here, anyway? You are the one who is ok with your gun being taken away because "the police will protect you".
You know, where I come from, that kind of talk qualifies you as an anti gunner. That makes you a troll.
Where do you get off calling those of us who actually care about our rights "hippies"? Just who is the hippie here, anyway? You are the one who is ok with your gun being taken away because "the police will protect you".
You know, where I come from, that kind of talk qualifies you as an anti gunner. That makes you a troll.
cassandrasdaddy
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where i come from there is an expression if you are gonna play the game learn to wear the name.
two permit holder within a mile of me have shot people one in a fight where he was convicted and did 5 year the other a murder during the commission of a robbery
two permit holder within a mile of me have shot people one in a fight where he was convicted and did 5 year the other a murder during the commission of a robbery
cassandrasdaddy
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another murder about 2 miles away was done by a 67 year old retired cop
Deanimator
Member
Is that meant to be an indictment of cops, retired cops carrying under LEOSA, or people with CCW licenses?
Officer Bobby Cutts, Jr. of the North Canton PD murdered his pregnant girlfriend and engaged in a conspiracy to conceal the murder. What unlawful acts on my part does that justify?
If you're going to justify illegal or injudicious actions by police based on the trivial number of crimes committed by CCW license holders, what improper actions by citizens can be justified by the several criminal assaults by police disclosed in the media this week?
cassandrasdaddy
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none of the above it mean that a permit does not make you a good guy
Deanimator
Member
And neither does a badge, right?
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
If the available statistic can be believed, a CCW license or permit does indeed mark you as considerably LESS likely to be or become a violent offender than does a LEO badge.
But this is getting awfully circular.
But this is getting awfully circular.
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