Grammar for Gunnies

[230RN]

Posted on wrong forum

EDITED TO ADD: Boy, talk about being clear about things. What I meant was that I had prepared a post and stuck it on this forum by mistake --too many browser windows open, and I clicked the wrong one.

By later comments, somebody must have thought I was commenting on the relevance of this thread. My fault.

 

[Leif Runenritzer]

Me vs. I – Maybe this one is indicative of the way many in our society think these days with their “me first” attitudes, but “ME” never begins a sentence. I hear it all the time, and it makes me cringe. CORRECT: John and I are gonna shoot his AR-15 tomorrow. INCORRECT: Me and John are gonna shoot his AR-15 tomorrow. You wouldn’t say “Me is gonna shoot tomorrow,” would you? You’d say I. So say I when you’re including another person, and say their name first. Me belongs AFTER the verb…never before it.

I'd also like to caution folks not to take this too far, and understand the principle behind this whole i/me thing. For example, one might say "between you and i..." rather than rightly saying "between you and me...". If you remember one thing from this paragraph, remember that "between you and me..." is right, so i beseech you not to say it the other way. Consider these pairs of words: i/me, thou/thee, he/him, she/her, we/us, ye/you, they/them, who/whom. The first word in each pair is used for a subject (that which does something), and the second word is used for an object (that with which, at which or to which something is done). Now look at it this way: you could instead say "between us...", but you would never say "between we...".

Obviously, words like me and you have made inroads into the other pronouns, so don't go nuts.

Yeah, i spell i lowercase. It just makes no sense to spell it uppercase.

 

[Geronimo45]

You wouldn’t say “Me is gonna shoot tomorrow,” would you? You’d say I.

"I is gonna shoot tomorrow"?

Yeah, i spell i lowercase. It just makes no sense to spell it uppercase.

Then engineers will come to your house and beat you. The letter 'i' is either a vowel or the square root of -1.

 

[LWGN]

230rn,

When you say that

"Gauge" is spelled alphabetically, as in A-e-i-o-U.

are you referring solely to the "au" in the middle?
If not, that "e" at the end is going to complicate matters...

I grew up in rural Florida (although my parents were from NY and NJ), so it is easy for me to spell "gauge". I just think about how my neighbors would pronounce it (gay-uhj), and then the spelling is perfectly clear. This is not a joke or jab at southerners, BTW - it is really how I remember it!

 

[Brian Dale]

If your only argument is to attack the writing or speaking style of your opponent, you have pretty much already lost.

I agree with that.

On the other hand, if you as a writer have put effort into developing your thoughts, and they're worth reading because of that effort, then they're also worth your making the effort to present them clearly.

The price of the reader's attention is the writer's attention.

You do it; why not recommend that everybody else reach for that standard, too?

 

[Big45]

Posted on wrong forum

My guess is the Mods are letting this NON GUN RELATED thread stay open because they get tired of reading net speak and hope some here read it?

 

[Brian Dale]

My guess is that the Mods are letting this thread stay open because the way that gun owners are perceived by the general public can help or hinder us in staving off assaults on the right to keep and bear arms.

 

[La Pistoletta]

English is a funny language though, looking in from the outside. I don't think there's any other language where you can spell words in so many ways and yet pronounce them the same.

In Swedish there would be no mistakes regarding their, they're,
their, muzzle, muzzel and so on since they'd all be pronounced differently. Muzzel, for example, would sound the way it's spelled. Muzzle would sound like muzz-luh.

English also only has one "true" vowel, which is E. That's the only one pronounced as a single, continous tone (eeee...whereas I is eye, A is ay, O is ou etc). This is the case for all vowels in other languages and it causes some problems for Britons and Americans trying to pronounce foreign words.

Yet another thing is the way so many letters and sections of words can be pronounced as a simple "uh".

I still think English is the best language but there are definately some quirks with it.

 

[ZeSpectre]

FWIW, I think you can err by going too far in either direction. Grammar nazism is lame, but communicating like an illiterate cretin is worse.

Quoted for emphasis. It's pretty much the point I was trying to make as well.

Let's not be -willfully- ignorant.

 

[LWGN]

La Pistoletta,

I have to second your opinion! I would HATE to have to learn English as a second language. I studied German in high school and college, and when I was asked by my Spanish-studying friends what it was like, I almost always replied that it was just like English, only with rules you could actually follow.

Would that the rules of English spelling, grammar, and usage were as simple as the rules of gun safety!

 

[LWGN]

For those who rail against "grammar Nazis", here is a different way of looking at the issue.

The things that come out of our mouths and, by extension, our keyboards, are powerful, and they have the potential to be dangerous, just like guns. If you would refrain from sweeping the room, refrain from sweeping generalizations about "antis". If you would take steps to prevent your weapon from going off half-cocked, take steps (such as checking spelling, grammar, and usage, in addition to checking logic and accuracy) to prevent your mouth from going off half-cocked, too. If you would adjust your sights to ensure that your bullets hit their targets, take the time and effort to construct your writing so that it, too, scores a bullseye with its target audience. If you would not complain if someone more knowledgeable and experienced pointed out potential safety problems with the public gun-handling habits of a less-knowledgeable shooter, don't complain when people like the OP try to point out the very real potential safety hazards of careless handling of the language in a public place. Few people here would disagree with the idea that sloppy and negligent gun handling not only puts individuals at risk, but puts our Second Amendment rights at risk by providing ammunition for those who would seek to curtail them. Consider the possibility that sloppy and negligent writing by gun rights supporters wherever they are identified as such poses much the same risks.

 

[Walkalong]

My guess is the Mods are letting this NON GUN RELATED thread stay open because

it is interesting and civil.

 

[3KillerBs]

@LWGN,

Beautifully put.

 

[XD Fan]

LWGN,

The things that come out of our mouths and, by extension, our keyboards, are powerful, and they have the potential to be dangerous, just like guns. If you would refrain from sweeping the room, refrain from sweeping generalizations about "antis". If you would take steps to prevent your weapon from going off half-cocked, take steps (such as checking spelling, grammar, and usage, in addition to checking logic and accuracy) to prevent your mouth from going off half-cocked, too. If you would adjust your sights to ensure that your bullets hit their targets, take the time and effort to construct your writing so that it, too, scores a bullseye with its target audience. If you would not complain if someone more knowledgeable and experienced pointed out potential safety problems with the public gun-handling habits of a less-knowledgeable shooter, don't complain when people like the OP try to point out the very real potential safety hazards of careless handling of the language in a public place. Few people here would disagree with the idea that sloppy and negligent gun handling not only puts individuals at risk, but puts our Second Amendment rights at risk by providing ammunition for those who would seek to curtail them. Consider the possibility that sloppy and negligent writing by gun rights supporters wherever they are identified as such poses much the same risks.

That is very well said.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I would add to the Big Seven the words "affect" and "effect." I will estimate that they are used incorrectly on Internet forums ("fora"?) probably 95% to 98% of the time.

Verbally, you would never notice if your commanding officer said, "Fire for affect." In black-and-white -- it's meaningless.

I have to second your opinion! I would HATE to have to learn English as a second language. I studied German in high school and college, and when I was asked by my Spanish-studying friends what it was like, I almost always replied that it was just like English, only with rules you could actually follow.

My wife is Hispanic, so she is struggling to learn English while I struggle to learn Spanish. She complains about all the exceptions to the rules in English, but what I'm finding is that Spanish seems to have even more exceptions to the rules than English. Quick example: In French, nouns ending in 'A' are feminine. I thought that was true for French, Italian and Spanish. It is NOT true for Spanish. It seems there are more exceptions to the rules than there are words that conform. For example, the word for "problem" is "problema." It's masculine -- "el problema." There is no way to learn which words are masculine and which are feminine -- you just have to be told often enough that you got it wrong that, sooner or later, it may sink in.

 

[La Pistoletta]

What you gotta do is live the language. Read it, speak it, listen to it and write it. Do it every day and like it. Weekend warriors never progress beyond adequacy.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

What you gotta do is live the language. Read it, speak it, listen to it and write it. Do it every day and like it. Weekend warriors never progress beyond adequacy.

I would be overjoyed to achieve mere adequacy

 

[Guntalk]

Master the TOOLS

Interesting thread. I guess someone else was as bothered by this as I have been.

Why is this important?

Two main reasons.

1. The purpose of writing is communication. If you say "their" when you mean "they're," you are not communicating well. It causes the reader to stop, for an instant, back up, re-read, and then figure out what you MEANT to say.

That's a poor job of communication. Can the reader figure it out? Probably. Still, you are doing a *poor job* of communicating.

2. It's sloppy.

Would you say that spraying bullets toward a target is good enough? Not likely. Would you take pride in a target that has bullet holes all over, and even a bunch of misses? I doubt it? Would you want to show someone a gun you had worked on, complete with buggered-up screw heads? Nope.

Why not? Because it would be evidence that you were not very good at this skill, and it would show that you had not mastered the tools.

A mechanic must master his/her tools. Ditto for all professionals.

When you write, your tool is the English language (assuming you are writing in English).

Sloppy grammar and spelling show a lack of care, not a lack of education. It shows a lack of respect for the reader, and for yourself.

As someone who has written thousands of magazine articles, several books, and edited some of the best writers in the business, I can testify that we all make mistakes. Heck, I can't spell a lick. I have to look up words all the time. (Do not depend on spell check!)

What I would hope for is that we all care enough about ourselves and others to slow down just a bit, and to take the time to master the tools we use.

If we are to be persuasive (and I just had to look up how to spell that word), we need to reduce or eliminate anything that interferes with effective communication.

 

[GearHead_1]

I find this thread very interesting. It appears to me that the overall feel from those who have posted in this thread is that we can do better; I agree. I'm not very good when it comes to using proper grammar/punctuation, I hated English while in school, though I continue to try to better myself. There are always hold outs. I believe that for the most part those offering resistance are too lazy to improve their skills. Improving ones skills doesn't come in waves but improvement happens, a little bit at at a time as one focuses on refining the skills they already have. Interestingly enough one post that I was reading (no user name mentioned) in this thread was making a case for not seeing a need to improve. The post was so poorly constructed that after reading it twice I just moved on. I felt the negative sentiment but I couldn't really find the point of the post. I find that I often do this when reading threads, unfortunately so does the rest of the non-shooting world.

 

[tinygnat219]

I Fidn Gun Grammer to bbe vrey intersting.

HAhahaha. loksl ike someoen kofnesed klpi for a mgazne.

 

[ants]

PhilA and others, I'm glad you had the opportunity to try to do some good. Poor grammer, syntax and spelling on these internet forums really bugs the heck out of me, too.

However, do you realize it the same as teaching an English grammer class to your dog? None of it will do the dog any good. It doesn't annoy him because he likes the attention, but none of it will do him any good.

 

[ZeSpectre]

However, do you realize it the same as teaching an English grammer class to your dog? None of it will do the dog any good. It doesn't annoy him because he likes the attention, but none of it will do him any good.

This sort of attitude just blows my mind. I'll tell you what, if PhilA and the rest of us do something we may or may not reach/help others but if we throw up our hands and do -nothing- then I can guarantee that NOTHING will happen. So in my book it's worth the effort to at least try.

 

[TCB in TN]

BTW just to throw out an idea that has been floating about in both education and psych circles, multiple intelligences. Some folks are very intelligent in their particular area, such as interpersonal relationships (talking to people) and make great sales folks and the like but are much less adept at other activities (such as written communications). Just as some folks can barely hold a conversation with other but can play an instrument as naturally as they can breathe. Now being involved in education, I can speak from my own limited, personal experience and tell you that I have already taught several students who can read, write, and speak very well but logical, direct, straight line deductive thinking (such as math) are a real struggle for them. While most folks can become proficient in math, or writing, or reading, some can't. Now I am not excusing poor communication, nor am I diagnosing but what I can say is that not everyone (and that includes MANY productive members of society) have the same ability to communicate. But then again some folks are just lazy!

 

[Brian Dale]

Remember the Buddha's the last words to his disciples?

"Do your best."

 

[mnrivrat]

However, do you realize it the same as teaching an English grammer class to your dog?

Interesting perspective - are you sure you are up to teaching anybody anything ? Your dog included ?

Then again this is not an English grammer teaching board is it ? Perhaps people come here to learn something ,but it is not grammer . Perhaps they are interested in firearm related information ,and when a poster doesn't seem to give a rats behind what is said - just - that it is spelled right . It takes away from the thread in most cases . In my opinion anyway .

Like arguing wether a comma in the 2nd amendment means that the right to keep and bear arms is either a military right, or the peoples right . You need only to look at the overall intent of the writer to communicate. If you don't understand what they are saying then that's a little different - you might ask someone to clarify. But to spend the time to "teach" grammer on these posts is a lesson in poor manners. and it becomes about you ,and your ability to write, rather than your ability to communicate regarding a firearm issue.