ZeSpectre
Member
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on that. Trying to help another person improve is -hardly- poor manners (see my post earlier regarding "constructive criticism").
Grammar for Gunnies
- Thread starter PhilA
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I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on that. Trying to help another person improve is -hardly- poor manners (see my post earlier regarding "constructive criticism").
Aguila Blanca
Member
Remember the Dalhi Lama's words: "If you meet the Buddha in the road -- kill him."Brian Dale said:
(Note: There is logic to that statement, but if you haven't studied the Buddha's own teachings, you probably won't get it.)
But the 2nd Amendment and the great comma debate is an almost perfect example of what the OP's point was. The fact that 200-plus years ago even well-educated writers of English were rather "cavalier" in their use of commas is still causing much consternation even today. The fact that people are arguing about the correct meaning of the 2nd Amendment 200-plus years after it was written down suggests that perhaps the "overall intent" of the 2A was not made quite as clear as the authors assumed it was. And that's a trap we all fall into from time to time: we take shortcuts in our writing. WE know what we mean, so we slap a few characters up on the screen and castigate anyone who responds with "???" as a complete moron.mnrivrat said:
As a writer and editor, IMHO responsibility for "communication" flows both ways but at least 75% of the responsibility lies with the writer. If the words that are put down don't accurately convey the intended message, thought, or idea ... then no matter how hard the reader tries to divine the message, thought, or idea, he/she is only guessing.
Brian Dale
Member
Aguila Blanca: 
I tend to think that the writers of the time did just fine, and it is only in recent times that we have people who think that that comma is important to the meaning , primarily because they want to cloud the issue . Not because they don't understand the intent of those who wrote it.
And we do indeed disagree . For those who want to come onto this forum to discuss the issues the forum was set up for, it is in my opinion, a trajic waste of our time to continuely have to deal with grammer police . If my writing offends those who believe I use improper grammer, or fail to use spellcheck often enough, than so be it. You realy have the option of just not reading it. In fact, if your not interested in the subject matter, or what I have to say in general, than why indeed would you want to waste your time reading the information anyway.
If I have to pass some sort of inspection to write on this forum, then I will gladly go elsewhere as soon as a moderator deems it in the best interest of the forum . I am not a writer, nor am I a grammer student, or a teacher of gammer. I bring only the 50 years of firearms experience I have to this forum, and if more is expected of me, then I have nothing to give of interest.
Doggy Daddy
Member
In my view, those who have contributed pointers and instruction on grammar are nowhere near deserving of being called "police" or "Nazis". They are offering guidance and instruction, not penalties and edicts. Also, in my opinion, this thread is a perfect fit for this forum. Are we not trying here to put our best foot forward? The forum's name is "The High Road"... not "Tha Hi Rode".
ZeSpectre
Member
Look it really is this simple.
This is a PUBLIC forum (one ANYBODY can read) dedicated to trying to halting the demonization of a specific topic and to sharing a pool of knowledge and education on the topic of firearms. What we say here, how we say it, and the behaviors we demonstrate either raise or lower EVERYONE who participates. Also, since this is such a large and well known forum, the face we put forward has an effect far beyond our membership and into the world of firearms owners in general.
Because I'm aware of how important places like THR can be, I'll assist anyone who wants to try and communicate more effectively.
If someone doesn't want the help simply say "no thanks" and we all move on like civilized folks and we can skip the name calling such as "Grammar police", "Natzi", and so forth that sinks all of us to the same level as the folks who would call -us- "gun nuts", "paranoid", etc.
This is a PUBLIC forum (one ANYBODY can read) dedicated to trying to halting the demonization of a specific topic and to sharing a pool of knowledge and education on the topic of firearms. What we say here, how we say it, and the behaviors we demonstrate either raise or lower EVERYONE who participates. Also, since this is such a large and well known forum, the face we put forward has an effect far beyond our membership and into the world of firearms owners in general.
Because I'm aware of how important places like THR can be, I'll assist anyone who wants to try and communicate more effectively.
If someone doesn't want the help simply say "no thanks" and we all move on like civilized folks and we can skip the name calling such as "Grammar police", "Natzi", and so forth that sinks all of us to the same level as the folks who would call -us- "gun nuts", "paranoid", etc.
Wether your English writing skills were obtained from Harvard University, or from Grandma Yokum sitting on a stump in the hills, it is the content of the message that is important to me on this forum. I know that there are different ways of communicating both the written and the oral language of this country. It is not the queens English for example. We also have a number of members who for them English is not their primary language.
I didn't join the forum to improve my English writing skills so that I could make a good impression on anybody, and I do mean anybody.
When I see a poster present a message only to have the next person criticise their spelling, or sentance structure, grammer, etc. , I do not see "High Road" on that criticism, nor do I see it as constructive. I see it as off topic and simply as criticism - nothing more. It adds nothing to the topic of the thread or post, and has the effect of demoralizing the poster into not participating in the forum.
I realy don't care wether a post is dressed in a 3 piece suit, or a tee shirt and jeans. It takes all to continue a fight for our rights . If you are embarassed by the folks on this forum who are not as skilled at the writing of the English language as you, then perhaps the most constructive criticism is the type we should all look for within ourselves.
The idea of good presentation being important does not excape me , it however is a burdon I do not place on myself or my fellow forum members when the subject matter is so much more important to me than how it is dressed. Perhaps that is the wrong way to look at it - perhaps not. It is however the way I look at it.
ps: If one seems compelled to gaurd the posts of others against "bad" grammer, etc. Then I also think that the term "Grammer Police" is a reasonable discription .
I didn't join the forum to improve my English writing skills so that I could make a good impression on anybody, and I do mean anybody.
When I see a poster present a message only to have the next person criticise their spelling, or sentance structure, grammer, etc. , I do not see "High Road" on that criticism, nor do I see it as constructive. I see it as off topic and simply as criticism - nothing more. It adds nothing to the topic of the thread or post, and has the effect of demoralizing the poster into not participating in the forum.
I realy don't care wether a post is dressed in a 3 piece suit, or a tee shirt and jeans. It takes all to continue a fight for our rights . If you are embarassed by the folks on this forum who are not as skilled at the writing of the English language as you, then perhaps the most constructive criticism is the type we should all look for within ourselves.
The idea of good presentation being important does not excape me , it however is a burdon I do not place on myself or my fellow forum members when the subject matter is so much more important to me than how it is dressed. Perhaps that is the wrong way to look at it - perhaps not. It is however the way I look at it.
ps: If one seems compelled to gaurd the posts of others against "bad" grammer, etc. Then I also think that the term "Grammer Police" is a reasonable discription .
loop
Member
Personally, I think this is one of the best threads I've read on this forum. It is unfortunate that some folks seem to feel it is directed at them, but the people who are the most defensive about abusing the language are typically the worst offenders.
Anyone who truly believes the message is more important than the presentation hasn't done very many presentations.
The great thing about the Internet is that it opens up the opportunity for everyone to be heard. The horrible thing about the Internet is that it opens up the opportunity for everyone to be heard.
Here, in this forum, the analogies are blatant. If you are telling me how important it is to take your time to file off a couple ten-thousandths of an inch, but won't take the time to spell thousandths correctly, how can I give your words any credence?
Am I supposed to believe you would spend 15 minutes fitting a stop plate perfectly when you would not spend 15 seconds spelling your words correctly?
I would submit that refusing to spell correctly or use proper grammar or punctuation is simple arrogance. It says "What I have to say is so important you should listen to me even if I sound stupid saying it, because I know so much more than you can ever hope to know and my 'message' is so important you must adapt to me."
And I am supposed to buy into that?
Pfffffttttttttttt.
This forum is all about communication. I have the same complaints about it that I have about Blogs. Anybody with a computer can put their words up for others to take as Gospel.
Words are my stock-in-trade. I can prove a Hi-Point is as good as a Wilson Combat 1911 any day of the week. It is easy. All you have to do is use the words properly. If you refuse to attempt to utilize the language, you lose.
Yes, English is a tricky language. Perhaps that is why I pride myself on feeding my family via the language for so many years.
If you really believe in defending our Second Amendment rights you really need to learn to communicate properly. Otherwise your arguments will be dismissed as quickly as I dismissed the arguments of everyone who spelled grammar "g-r-a-m-m-e-r."
Anyone who truly believes the message is more important than the presentation hasn't done very many presentations.
The great thing about the Internet is that it opens up the opportunity for everyone to be heard. The horrible thing about the Internet is that it opens up the opportunity for everyone to be heard.
Here, in this forum, the analogies are blatant. If you are telling me how important it is to take your time to file off a couple ten-thousandths of an inch, but won't take the time to spell thousandths correctly, how can I give your words any credence?
Am I supposed to believe you would spend 15 minutes fitting a stop plate perfectly when you would not spend 15 seconds spelling your words correctly?
I would submit that refusing to spell correctly or use proper grammar or punctuation is simple arrogance. It says "What I have to say is so important you should listen to me even if I sound stupid saying it, because I know so much more than you can ever hope to know and my 'message' is so important you must adapt to me."
And I am supposed to buy into that?
Pfffffttttttttttt.
This forum is all about communication. I have the same complaints about it that I have about Blogs. Anybody with a computer can put their words up for others to take as Gospel.
Words are my stock-in-trade. I can prove a Hi-Point is as good as a Wilson Combat 1911 any day of the week. It is easy. All you have to do is use the words properly. If you refuse to attempt to utilize the language, you lose.
Yes, English is a tricky language. Perhaps that is why I pride myself on feeding my family via the language for so many years.
If you really believe in defending our Second Amendment rights you really need to learn to communicate properly. Otherwise your arguments will be dismissed as quickly as I dismissed the arguments of everyone who spelled grammar "g-r-a-m-m-e-r."
In other words you got nothing of importance to say, but you can sure present it right !
And I am suppose to buy into that ! Pfffffttttt ! (is that a proper word ?)
Excuse me now as I have to right grammAr on the chalkboard a few thousand times .
Jamie C.
Member
Well, from one perspective, if you don't present it right you might as well not have anything to say.
Ever tried to say a particular thing and have it come out all wrong? Ever had to hurry up and clarify what you meant before you had someone ( or a bunch of someones ) start looking for a rope and a tall tree?
Mis-communications (? That looks funny, but my spell checker says it's right...
) can have some painful results sometimes, so it's best to avoid them if you can. Even if the thought isn't all that important.J.C.
.38 Special
Member
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How about when it's wearing worn out tighty-whiteys with stains? How about when it's stretched out nude in the road with tire tracks on its face? I mean, there are posts on this website that don't meet second grade standards.
Are you really claiming that you place no more faith in a properly spelled, punctuated, and constructed post than one written in crayon?
I have grandparents who were nearly illiterate, but who taught me valuable lessons in life every time they wrote to me. Often it is important to be willing to take the extra time and effort to extract the message from a poor presentation.
To the members of this forum with fewer writing skills: Just keep doing your best to tell me what you think, and I'll do my best to understand.
To the members of this forum with fewer writing skills: Just keep doing your best to tell me what you think, and I'll do my best to understand.
To members of this forum who make a living teaching the language (and those who keep insisting that the language is used correctly): I honor you as better than me. I would be completely frustrated doing your job. Please keep up the fine work with my admiration.
Wow...and here I thought we had a internet forum about guns, not a 4th grade grammar and spelling class.
Actually yes.
Unless you expect us to believe that you give equal excellence and energy to making sure EVERY SINGLE ACTIVITY you undertake in your life is perfect. Because by using your "logic" if there is one single activity you do (i.e. mow the yard, paint the house, pay the bills, etc) that you don't give total and complete energy too then it means by default the rest of your life is a mess. In other words, if you cut a few corners while mowing, don't maintain your mower exactly to manufacturers specs, don't mow in reccomended patterns to encourage grass grow, etc you therefore are a total slob who doesn't have any pride and doesn't give any energy to anything else you do. Because that is what you are saying.
If you don't spell well on a silly internet forum you must be a total slob who doesn't maintain his weapons, has no safety discipline, etc. And the oppisate is complete junk too. "If you spell well, you must have excellent weapons maintenance and safety discipline". That makes about as much sense as saying, "if you have brown hair you must really keep your car clean".
Serriously, say what you are thinking outloud and hear how silly it is. "A person who doensn't spell well and have wonderfull grammar on an internet forum must be a total wreck of a human". Complete and total rubbish.
Some folks take great pride in spelling and grammar. I do too.....WHEN IT MATTERS. Silly things like business communications, dealings with a lawyer, thank you cards to loved ones. Then, and only then, do I really give a rip about making sure all spelling is perfect and grammar as correct as I can make it. Perfect spelling and Harvard level gramar rate ON AN INTERNET FORUM rank right up there with another "9mm vs .45ACP" or "Glock vs 1911" debate. A complete waste of time IMO.
It never ceases to amaze me the people who want to make sweeping statements about THE ENTIRE life of an anyonomus internet poster based on spelling. But the poor speller is the one who is arrogent?
I've known plenty of people who spell well, and speak well who are total idiots. I've known some people who spell well and speak well who are brillant and wonderfull people. Doesn't seem to be much of a correlation to me.
Heck I know one perfectionist who builds furniture. He looks down on anyone who doesn't build things (ie shelves, desks, decks) down to exacting detail. He goes on and on about how doing so demonstrates to people that he cares, has standards, etc. Meanwhile, he is on the verge of bankrupcy, his house is a complete pig-pen, and they have one of the worst marriages I know of.
So much for judging people soley by one aspect of their life.
Actually yes.
Unless you expect us to believe that you give equal excellence and energy to making sure EVERY SINGLE ACTIVITY you undertake in your life is perfect. Because by using your "logic" if there is one single activity you do (i.e. mow the yard, paint the house, pay the bills, etc) that you don't give total and complete energy too then it means by default the rest of your life is a mess. In other words, if you cut a few corners while mowing, don't maintain your mower exactly to manufacturers specs, don't mow in reccomended patterns to encourage grass grow, etc you therefore are a total slob who doesn't have any pride and doesn't give any energy to anything else you do. Because that is what you are saying.
If you don't spell well on a silly internet forum you must be a total slob who doesn't maintain his weapons, has no safety discipline, etc. And the oppisate is complete junk too. "If you spell well, you must have excellent weapons maintenance and safety discipline". That makes about as much sense as saying, "if you have brown hair you must really keep your car clean".
Serriously, say what you are thinking outloud and hear how silly it is. "A person who doensn't spell well and have wonderfull grammar on an internet forum must be a total wreck of a human". Complete and total rubbish.
Some folks take great pride in spelling and grammar. I do too.....WHEN IT MATTERS. Silly things like business communications, dealings with a lawyer, thank you cards to loved ones. Then, and only then, do I really give a rip about making sure all spelling is perfect and grammar as correct as I can make it. Perfect spelling and Harvard level gramar rate ON AN INTERNET FORUM rank right up there with another "9mm vs .45ACP" or "Glock vs 1911" debate. A complete waste of time IMO.
It never ceases to amaze me the people who want to make sweeping statements about THE ENTIRE life of an anyonomus internet poster based on spelling. But the poor speller is the one who is arrogent?
I've known plenty of people who spell well, and speak well who are total idiots. I've known some people who spell well and speak well who are brillant and wonderfull people. Doesn't seem to be much of a correlation to me.
Heck I know one perfectionist who builds furniture. He looks down on anyone who doesn't build things (ie shelves, desks, decks) down to exacting detail. He goes on and on about how doing so demonstrates to people that he cares, has standards, etc. Meanwhile, he is on the verge of bankrupcy, his house is a complete pig-pen, and they have one of the worst marriages I know of.
So much for judging people soley by one aspect of their life.
searcher451
Member
No question this post has gone off in wild directions from its original intent; it's also generated a great deal of interest, which is a testament to the fact that it has a place here. What puzzles me is those who can't leave it alone because they are bothered by its content. But in fact, it's like every other thread on this forum. If it interests you and you have a contribution to make that can move the thread forward, by all means weigh in. If it doesn't interest you, and if you don't have a contribution to make that will move the thread forward, why take the time to leak all over someone else's range bag? Why not just skip on down the line and find a thread that actually trips your trigger?
If clear communication makes for better gun discussion, what's so bad about that?
If clear communication makes for better gun discussion, what's so bad about that?
41magsnub
Member
For me, if a person looks like they at least tried to be coherent but have a couple of the common errors I will give them a pass. When the post looks like it was written in "Authentic Frontier Gibberish" (guess the movie) my first instinct is to discount it. If the person does not care enough to try, I should not care about what they said.
atk
Member
GunTech,
Clarification noted and appreciated
Clarification noted and appreciated
Superpsy
Member
Much needed post. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who has noticed this.
La Pistoletta
Member
It's very simple. Expect people to put into reading your post, what you put into writing it. Take that and do what you want with it.
Poper
Member
41magsnub:
Poper
IIRC, that would be "Blazing Saddles"?
Poper
Old Dog
Member
Ltlabner commented
It is crucial that we put forward our opinions and beliefs legibly, clearly and with some effort at literacy. Perception, these days, is often seen as reality. Some note our comments messily posted, in mangled language, and we all will be perceived as illiterate bumpkins; our important message then, will be lost for good, and and THR's mission statement rendered meaningless.
No, I don't believe anyone is saying that ... the recurring theme I notice (and wholeheartedly believe) is that on a public forum, we simply should be striving to represent ourselves to the best of our abilities. We all recognize that our membership isn't possessed of equal levels of higher education, that many here speak English as a second language, etc., etc., but the fact remains, we have a responsibility to portray ourselves, concomitant to our RKBA message, as committed to diligence in all aspects of our lives, not solely the ownership and use of firearms.
It is crucial that we put forward our opinions and beliefs legibly, clearly and with some effort at literacy. Perception, these days, is often seen as reality. Some note our comments messily posted, in mangled language, and we all will be perceived as illiterate bumpkins; our important message then, will be lost for good, and and THR's mission statement rendered meaningless.
TCB in TN
Member
The main problem with this is that not everyone is here on THR, or even on the web in general, to make an impression on those around them. Perhaps we have a higher percentage of folks here who do have an activist mind set, but overall most folks are merely killing time and trying to find some enjoyment.
BTW beginning a sentence with and is not very good form.
Although I realy wonder how you know that someone hasn't tried hard enough, I have no problem with you ,or anyone else ,skipping over a post and moving on.
I do have a problem when people feel compelled to make judgment, often in a condescending manner, and post a condemnation of a fellow member for their lack of writing skills. This self appointed role of posting editor smacks more of egoism than it does of constructive education.
I have yet to read a post here that I did not understand what the poster was trying to communicate. If I ever do , I will ask for a clarification if I'm interested in the thread or post, and if I am not interested in the subject, I will move on.
No one put me in charge of policing the written text here, and I wonder what drives those who feel self compelled to do so.
macadore
Member
This is, indeed, an interesting thread. One’s education is, in fact, directly tied to one’s rhetoric. If you’ens kant rite rite, then we’ns is a gonna assume yall’s ignurnt n we ain’t a gonna have much respect fur yur opinions.
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