Gun stops terrorist today.

[Pigspitter]

I never realized that an inanimate object such as a gun was capable of getting up and stopping a terrorist. Thanks HighRoad!

As the late Kurt Vonnegut once wrote, guns fire little bullets which put holes in people. The holes are what kill the people.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Holy crap, get over the use of the word gun. It is a title, a small amount of space to get my point across. I made myself clear in the first paragraph.

The problem here is that your title appears to affirm the anti-gun position that guns are the cause of violence.

A third point is this, that a civilian (regardless of his military history, he wasn't in uniform.) made a difference with a simple handgun.

Since when does being off duty make in the military make you a civilian? Whether or not you are wearing a uniform does not change your profession or professional status. An off duty soldier is just that, a soldier who isn't on duty.

FYI, the bulldozer wasn't armored either. This is an armored bulldozer...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZbG9i1oGPA

 

[TexasRifleman]

The problem here is that your title appears to affirm the anti-gun position that guns are the cause of violence.

Or mocks their continued use of the term by showing that "guns" can also be used for good.

 

[Girodin]

Guys, we had at least four people post this - hovering around various news services waiting for a piece that says "gun" or "shooting" is time you could better spend at the range...

It hardly took scouring the news all day in search of gun related incedents to come across this. Many educated people read the news daily. Getting a news update is something many folks can do at the office. Running off to the range is something others cannot. Also reading the news is not so time consuming an activity that it would preclude other activities such as a range trip should one desire that.

 

[Code3GT]

I wonder if that would happen here? Remember the tank guy in Commie-fornia? We'd see 14 media helo's circling 56 black/white's following a front-end loader (bulldozer per the media) and another cheesy commentary by John Bunnell until the vehicle is stopped by some random inanimate object, more than likely will lose a track/tire on a curb and then be stormed by LEO's who will "safely" apprehend the suspect.

 

[HK G3]

They shot the tank driver in Cali after it got stuck in the median.

There was a kid that commandeered a bulldozer for a ride in AZ awhile ago as well. He didn't explicitly target anything, but a cop jumped from his cruiser (partner was driving) onto the bulldozer, and shot the kid (~14 y/o IIRC).

 

[gallo]

I have several observations about the people's response to this terrorist act.

1. If this had happened in the US and a young off-duty soldier took the gun off a policeman, I suspect he may have gotten shot too. Notice the degree of confidence and familiarity the police man with the helmet had in the off-duty soldier. He immediately differentiated the good guys from the bad guy. It's a shame when at the airport I've had to see soldiers in uniform take off their boots to clear security on their way back to Iraq.

2. The off-duty soldier, only 18 years old, acted decisively and assertively. This says much about his training the environment where he's been raised. Not many of our youth with pants down to mid ass would react similarly. There is something of mandatory service either civil or military that builds character and temperament in young men and women.

3. People were not afraid of the armed good guys. In this country, people see a civilian holding a gun and get offended.

 

[chaim]

Since when does being off duty make in the military make you a civilian?

These articles do say that he is a Hesder Yeshiva student. Hesder Yeshiva is typically a 5 year program combining Army service with Yeshiva learning (post-high school/sometimes post-college religious learning). Most Hesder Yeshivot lead to rabbinical ordination. If he has already done his Army service and is currently studying in the yeshiva he may have anywhere from 1 year to the rest of his time in the program "off duty". So, his "off duty soldier" status may mean the next few days, or the next few years (and I would argue that a soldier who is off duty for years is a civilian, with a status not much different from our guys on inactive reserve).

Anyway, even if he can't be considered a civilian, the gun he used was a civilian carried gun. Here it is identified as a policeman's gun, but I've seen other reports that it was a civilian security guard and another firsthand report from the soldier identifying it as civilian:

JPost.com » Israel » Article
Jul 2, 2008 14:32 | Updated Jul 3, 2008 6:56
'He cried Allah Akhbar and hit the gas'
By YAAKOV KATZ

He was a soldier home on leave, riding his bike down Jaffa Road on Wednesday when he spotted the overturned No. 13 bus and a massive bulldozer tearing through the streets of Jerusalem. Realizing that the Arab behind the wheel was in the midst of a terror rampage, "M" (his identity and unit are barred from publication by a court order) threw his bike to the side of the road and began to chase the bulldozer.

Speaking with reporters several hours after the attack, M recalled the sequence of events that led to his courageous action.

As he began running toward the bulldozer, M said, he shouted to onlookers, asking for a gun. Together with a civilian, M climbed aboard the bulldozer and began wrestling with the driver.

"At one point he yelled out, 'Allahu Akbar,' and stepped on the gas pedal," M recalled. "I drew the weapon of the civilian who was with me and shot the driver three times in the head. I think I did what is expected from every soldier and citizen."

Seconds later, off-duty Yasam police anti-terror unit officer Eli Mizrahi climbed aboard and shot the terrorist again, killing him.

If you want to see the rest of the article, go here:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1214726188722&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Guys, we had at least four people post this - hovering around various news services waiting for a piece that says "gun" or "shooting" is time you could better spend at the range...

Hmm, I can't speak for everyone else, but I can speak for the closed thread I posted. I did not "hover around" looking for a gun related article. I regularly read the news (I'm a news junkie and a social studies teacher). Being Jewish and having friends who have moved to Israel (and most people I know have been there for extended periods to learn in yeshiva) I read the Israeli news and take special notice when there is a terror attack. It just so happened that when I read the details of this one I thought "Gee, this is a good story of a constructive use of a gun. I think it would be good to post it on THR." I didn't intend to upset or offend anyone.

 

[gallo]

Chaim,

You don't have to apologize. This story was all over the Internet, and it makes for a hell of a discussion topic.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

the gun he used was a civilian carried gun. Here it is identified as a policeman's gun, but I've seen other reports that it was a civilian security guard and another firsthand report from the soldier identifying it as civilian:

Yes, anyone there who wasn't a soldier was a civilian including the police and security guards, but they didn't make the stop. So the gun might have come from a cop or security guard. You would expect them to be armed, no?
-----
TR said,

Or mocks their continued use of the term by showing that "guns" can also be used for good./QUOTE]

The OPer wanted to know why people didn't like his animation of an inanimate object, a gun, and I was simply explaining the position.

And no, it does not mock their position by showing guns can be used for good. That is the point. It presents the gun as acting on its own, in an almost Asimovian manner, acting independently and hence out of control of humans.

 

[22-rimfire]

I bet if this happened in California, Moshe would be in court today defending himself. We need to make some changes here in the USA.

I guess they call a front end loader a "bull dozier" over there. That aside, you could really do some serious damage with one of those FAST in a populated area. You could even hurt a lot of people quickly with a Bobcat on a populated street. Good for Moshe!

 

[TexasRifleman]

And no, it does not mock their position by showing guns can be used for good. That is the point. It presents the gun as acting on its own, in an almost Asimovian manner, acting independently and hence out of control of humans.

Yeah, I see what you are saying there. Didn't really occur to me.

 

[mewachee]

If I could change the title of this thread, I would.

This was a good story on the defensive use of a hand, closed mindedness on my admitted misuse of the word gun is not the end of handgun ownership. However, sticking with the real point of the thread, that a bystander stopped a murderer because he had access to a handgun and was willing to use it; sharing that does make a real difference.

Elitist gun owners don't help gun rights anymore than the elitist antis do.

 

[Golan]

What I would like to know is this, Why did not the police have his gun in his hand and shoot that fool himself?

There is an inquiry today why the two armed police officers (one a female) that were guarding that area did not react as they were paid to do.

the hero wasn't a "civilian" as claimed, but an off duty soldier

and a member of an elite unit by chance.

I think it said the guy was the brother in law of the officer?

A relative of the civillian soldier that killed the terrorist at the Yeshiva killing spree of a few months ago.


The police officer was accidently shot too. The Yassam Officer put two into the head as a coup de grace, something allowed only when there is still extreme danger like if a terr has his finger on the button of a bomb, in this case he will probably be vindicated.

Actually, the only citizen involved was the older security guard that ran out from the medical center that he was guarding. We don't have the concept of off-duty soldiers when they are in their conscript years, nor are police officers ever considered off duty due to the emergency regulations put into effect in the early '70's.

Even here in the states I think you might be hard pressed to find a police officer would who single handedly jump onto a moving commandeered bulldozer without known backup.

I would not put down cops anywhere else, we deal with terrorists effectively, our hardened criminals on the other hand are so far harder to deal with.

Notice the degree of confidence and familiarity the police man with the helmet had in the off-duty soldier.

The Motorcycle cop was from Yassam, they intervene in violent riots and are first responders to terrorist attacks until the Yamaam arrives. The Yassam guys are actually almost all from the various LRRP (sayeret) units. They are the second best trained in terrorist intervention after the Yamaam.

but they didn't make the stop

Correct. It was the soldier who did it right. The Yassam officer just made sure that the attack was over, more importantly, the tax payers don't need to pay for a hospitalization and trial of a lunatic,

The family of the dead terr is calling the killing of the terr a murder and claiming the Israelis shoot Arabs over traffic accidents. That's how the 1987 Intifada got started.

 

[dodging230grainers]

Golan, are you Israeli?

Atah medaber an'gleet tov me'od.

 

[Golan]

Yes I do have a good command of English, it's the first unofficial language here. I also use spell check.





All signs are in three languages. Hebrew, Arabic and English.

99% of Israelis speak English
99% of Arabs speak both Hebrew and English

 

[JColdIron]

Anyone notice this data point

"Moshe Klessner, 18, is the brother-in-law of IDF officer David Shapira, who killed the terrorist in the Mercaz Harav Yeshiva attack on March 6."

Strange but the area is not that big

 

[harmonic]

with an armored bulldozer.

Huh? What was "armored" about it?

And it's a wheel mounted front end loader. Not bulldozer. If it had been a bulldozer, it would have been moving so slowly you could finish your coffee before you had to move.

 

[mewachee]

The report that I heard said that shots were fired at the glass, but could not penetrate. This is why they climb on.

Also, I have been told that much of such vehicles in this region are have heavier plate steel to block small arms fire. I have no knowledge of such plating, but the assumption is made, because they could not penetrate the glass.

I am starting to think that I am under more scrutiny than the story.

And it's a wheel mounted front end loader. Not bulldozer. If it had been a bulldozer, it would have been moving so slowly you could finish your coffee before you had to move.

Then it is not an important story?

I am ex-military and an ex-reservist. By deeming him a part of an elite force, or of duty, or any other designation just demeans the fact that a citizen of that country stood up instead of watching the act from the sidelines with horror.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

and a member of an elite unit by chance.

Thank you, GOLAN!

I am ex-military and an ex-reservist. By deeming him a part of an elite force, or of duty, or any other designation just demeans the fact that a citizen of that country stood up instead of watching the act from the sidelines with horror.

Golan doesn't seem to have a problem with calling the soldier exactly what the soldier is, so why should you?

By the way, pretty sneaky, mewachee! I notice has you almost seamlessly went from calling the solider a civilian to calling him a citizen. The soldier was NOT a civilian, but is a citizen. He just happened to be a citizen who was a off duty soldier from an elite fighting unit. Honestly, there would be no reason to expect any less of a soldier.

The soldier did well, very well, but the soldier isn't your ordinary average Joe Blow on the street. This is what you seemed to be getting at from the start of the thread...giving the impression and Joe Blow with a gun stopped a terrorist attack.

An average Joe Blow very well may be able to do what this soldier did. I have no doubt about that at all. However, this story is not about that sort of person. It is about an off duty elite soldier who took action in a crisis. For crying out loud, give the soldier some credit for who he is.

 

[Rachen]

with an armored bulldozer.

Now thats some unnecessary media spicing right there.

I was watching Xinhua right before I logged on here this morning. Xinhua reporter showed photos of the incident. It was an ordinary Caterpillar, one that you will find on your city streets and construction sites every day.

This is just like calling ARs and AKs "machine guns" or "assault rifles". Seriously, I think the modern media is afflicted with Histrionic Personality Disorder.

 

[scrat]

Also, let's examine the title: "Gun stops terrorist today."

Gee, all by itself?
__________________

kinda like those acurate bullets the kind you hear people asking for. You know the ones you just point at and the bullet hits bullseye.

 

[Rachen]

kinda like those acurate bullets the kind you hear people asking for. You know the ones you just point at and the bullet hits bullseye.

Or like in Jack and the Giant Beanstalk, where you say "Fill, bowl, fill!", and your bowl would instantly fill with food.

In this case it was like saying "Shoot, gun, shoot!", and the gun magically jumps out of it's holster and shoots the terrorist dead.

 

[Sans Authoritas]

A terrorist, huh? He must've gotten the bulldozer from the Israelis, while they were taking a break from bulldozing Palestinian homes and 200-year old olive groves in "unapproved" areas, so they could move in nice Jewish families. Darn those terrorists. Always using violence against innocents in order to implement their policies.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[HK G3]

And thread lock in 3... 2...