Karl Hungus
Member
Like I said, the 50's were a LOOOONG time ago.
Gun Store Stereotyping
- Thread starter Wopasaurus
- Start date
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Brian Dale
Member
We read your post the first time, Karl. 
Humans have assessed their world visually and made quick decisions based on what's apparent to the eye for the past, oh, couple of hundred thousand years or more. It's not likely to change soon.
3KillerBs, I think that the salesman left a couple of words out, thus:
Humans have assessed their world visually and made quick decisions based on what's apparent to the eye for the past, oh, couple of hundred thousand years or more. It's not likely to change soon.
3KillerBs, I think that the salesman left a couple of words out, thus:
[/QUOTE]3KillerBs said:
I didn't read most of the thread, however when I used to walk in gunshops with a shirt and tie I usually got better service. I usually go in with a full beard nowadays though and get two responses due to my look.
With my motorcyle riding gear on usually it's a neutral to hostile response, some people like the bike. With normal clothes, I look like the leader of Hezbollah and get treated like s*%t sometimes.
There is a local shop or two that if you are wealthy looking and especially WASP looking you do get better service, I've seen it many times. I still trade at these shops but I'd be more inclined to do even more business there if that wasn't the case.
With my motorcyle riding gear on usually it's a neutral to hostile response, some people like the bike. With normal clothes, I look like the leader of Hezbollah and get treated like s*%t sometimes.
There is a local shop or two that if you are wealthy looking and especially WASP looking you do get better service, I've seen it many times. I still trade at these shops but I'd be more inclined to do even more business there if that wasn't the case.
Karl Hungus
Member
I'm not dissagreeing with B's or the other guys statement - you do choose the image you project. If you choose to look outlandishly freaky, you should be prepared for people to stare. If you don't like it then try to look more like everybody else. I'm just saying that some here have an extraordinarily outdated view of "freaky". I live in rural northern Wisconsin which is pretty conservative, but things like tattoos and long hair are pretty commonplace. I don't know what time-warp some here are from, but I (long hair and a sensible amount of tattoos) never have any trouble, at gun stores or anywhere else for that matter. Believe it or not, some guy tried giving me a military discount at a Subway a few weeks ago.
3KillerBs
Member
ROFLOL!
I do believe that the thud I just heard was a nail being hit firmly on the head. :lol:
Maybe here's a different perspective. I am a former record label owner, semi-professional musician playing mostly in a very large church, engineer by day, avid cyclist, and only recently ever had any interest in owning a gun. My wardrobe and appearance is largely selected for the way it looks on stage and on camera. I dress like a rock and roller 90% of the time (jeans, t-shirts, converse all-stars, shaggy hair, don't shave much, etc), and the rest of the time I dress for outdoors central TX utility comfort (cargo shorts, t-shirts, sport sandals). This may look funny to people while I am at the office amongst software engineers but they are used to me being there (12 years now).
When I go into a guitar shop I get the red carpet. I am super comfortable handling all of the stuff in there, I look the part and half of the staff knows who I am. I usually know more about the gear they are selling than they do. I get discounts without asking, they invite me to handle expensive "hands-off" instruments, etc. So there is something to looking and acting like you know what you are doing.
In a bicycle shop I don't get quite the same automatic welcome because I don't have a buzz cut and I have hair on my legs. But again I know what I am doing and know the equipment I am after so once anyone in the shop begins to talk to me they quickly catch on and I always am treated with a ton of respect by the staff.
When I went to buy a gun, just a couple of months ago, for the first time, it was clear to anyone that I was a noob. Not just my clothing or hair style, let me assure you. I have found that many gun stores are much more relationally exclusive than some other specialty shops like guitar shops and bike shops. Maybe gun ownership makes one feel empowered or illuminated in some way that they easily look down on non-gun-owners or potential gun owners as the uninformed "antis". I don't know what the deal is. But when I go into a gun store it's clear that there is some kind of protocol that I never knew about, and once I break one of those rules, the hammer is coming down. It's like the guy across the counter is testing me by observing my actions. First time I went into a gun shop looking for a gun, I asked to see one particular gun (the one I eventually bought, SW9VE). The dude opened the cabinet, took out the gun, removed the magazine and locked the slide open, then handed it to me with the trigger lock still on it. I thought this was a very odd way to be evaluating a gun! Could I ask to remove the trigger lock? Was that some kind of protocol I didn't know about? Why did he lock the slide open? Can I close it? What am I supposed to be looking for here? Frankly I was unconcerned as to the internals of the gun. I needed to know how it felt in my hand (which would help if the trigger lock were off, the magazine was in it, and the slide was closed), how it compared to others like it, etc. Suffice to say this visit was a little off-putting. I didn't think I was being stereotyped, but mostly I came in there and projected an attitude that I didn't know what I was doing, and the guy behind the counter seemed to pick up on that and inadvertently made me feel quite uncomfortable. I don't think it was intentional at all, just some kind of natural reaction.
Over the next week I queried my gun-owning friends about what I thought was odd behavior and they sort of agreed, the guy should have took the trigger lock off and after ensuring the gun was empty, closed the slide. OK, so I was not just nuts. So I called around a couple of different shops looking for another dealer of this particular gun and none of them had it, plus one store owner figured it was wise to spew obscenities over the phone when I even asked about it. Kind of like, "no, of course we don't carry that gun you moron. It's a piece of crap. You can't buy a decent gun for under $xxx, don't you know that?" only with a lot more 4-letter words.
I ended up going back to the same shop and this time there was a different counter attendant and when I asked to see the gun he did what I would have expected the first guy to do. Removed the mag, checked the chamber, closed it back up, removed the trigger lock, and set it down. I bought it.
After my first week or two of owning a gun, and after going out and shooting this gun and a number of others, getting real comfortable around them, I went into another gun shop and asked to look at a gun behind the counter. This time I knew much more about what I was doing and I am sure I projected a lot more confidence. The guy behind the counter handed it to me and then began to discuss the relative merits with some other guns, took out a couple more competitors to this one just in case I wanted to see them, I asked if I could dry-fire it to check the trigger and he grabbed some snap caps ... whole different experience. I think a lot of it has to do with the way I felt going in, and how I must have appeared in attitude.
Anyway, what I have found since then is that you have gun owners, then you have gun owners. Statistically 50% or so of American households have guns but I would guess that 80% or more of that crowd either has guns solely for hunting, or they have guns because they inherited them, they were gifts, they bought them for some reason other than actually using them, and they still greatly fear the idea of owning or using a gun. When confronted with a person who they discover owns a gun and also actually shoots it, maybe even carries it for self defense, they get really really weird all of the sudden. Heck my mom has bought three guns for herself and my dad, and they own about 6 guns, but she freaked out when she learned I bought one.
Anyway the point is, there is kind of a gun "clique" that I can discern, and I am pretty sure I don't want to be in it, but it is not exactly inviting to newcomers.
When I go into a guitar shop I get the red carpet. I am super comfortable handling all of the stuff in there, I look the part and half of the staff knows who I am. I usually know more about the gear they are selling than they do. I get discounts without asking, they invite me to handle expensive "hands-off" instruments, etc. So there is something to looking and acting like you know what you are doing.
In a bicycle shop I don't get quite the same automatic welcome because I don't have a buzz cut and I have hair on my legs. But again I know what I am doing and know the equipment I am after so once anyone in the shop begins to talk to me they quickly catch on and I always am treated with a ton of respect by the staff.
When I went to buy a gun, just a couple of months ago, for the first time, it was clear to anyone that I was a noob. Not just my clothing or hair style, let me assure you. I have found that many gun stores are much more relationally exclusive than some other specialty shops like guitar shops and bike shops. Maybe gun ownership makes one feel empowered or illuminated in some way that they easily look down on non-gun-owners or potential gun owners as the uninformed "antis". I don't know what the deal is. But when I go into a gun store it's clear that there is some kind of protocol that I never knew about, and once I break one of those rules, the hammer is coming down. It's like the guy across the counter is testing me by observing my actions. First time I went into a gun shop looking for a gun, I asked to see one particular gun (the one I eventually bought, SW9VE). The dude opened the cabinet, took out the gun, removed the magazine and locked the slide open, then handed it to me with the trigger lock still on it. I thought this was a very odd way to be evaluating a gun! Could I ask to remove the trigger lock? Was that some kind of protocol I didn't know about? Why did he lock the slide open? Can I close it? What am I supposed to be looking for here? Frankly I was unconcerned as to the internals of the gun. I needed to know how it felt in my hand (which would help if the trigger lock were off, the magazine was in it, and the slide was closed), how it compared to others like it, etc. Suffice to say this visit was a little off-putting. I didn't think I was being stereotyped, but mostly I came in there and projected an attitude that I didn't know what I was doing, and the guy behind the counter seemed to pick up on that and inadvertently made me feel quite uncomfortable. I don't think it was intentional at all, just some kind of natural reaction.
Over the next week I queried my gun-owning friends about what I thought was odd behavior and they sort of agreed, the guy should have took the trigger lock off and after ensuring the gun was empty, closed the slide. OK, so I was not just nuts. So I called around a couple of different shops looking for another dealer of this particular gun and none of them had it, plus one store owner figured it was wise to spew obscenities over the phone when I even asked about it. Kind of like, "no, of course we don't carry that gun you moron. It's a piece of crap. You can't buy a decent gun for under $xxx, don't you know that?" only with a lot more 4-letter words.
I ended up going back to the same shop and this time there was a different counter attendant and when I asked to see the gun he did what I would have expected the first guy to do. Removed the mag, checked the chamber, closed it back up, removed the trigger lock, and set it down. I bought it.
After my first week or two of owning a gun, and after going out and shooting this gun and a number of others, getting real comfortable around them, I went into another gun shop and asked to look at a gun behind the counter. This time I knew much more about what I was doing and I am sure I projected a lot more confidence. The guy behind the counter handed it to me and then began to discuss the relative merits with some other guns, took out a couple more competitors to this one just in case I wanted to see them, I asked if I could dry-fire it to check the trigger and he grabbed some snap caps ... whole different experience. I think a lot of it has to do with the way I felt going in, and how I must have appeared in attitude.
Anyway, what I have found since then is that you have gun owners, then you have gun owners. Statistically 50% or so of American households have guns but I would guess that 80% or more of that crowd either has guns solely for hunting, or they have guns because they inherited them, they were gifts, they bought them for some reason other than actually using them, and they still greatly fear the idea of owning or using a gun. When confronted with a person who they discover owns a gun and also actually shoots it, maybe even carries it for self defense, they get really really weird all of the sudden. Heck my mom has bought three guns for herself and my dad, and they own about 6 guns, but she freaked out when she learned I bought one.
Anyway the point is, there is kind of a gun "clique" that I can discern, and I am pretty sure I don't want to be in it, but it is not exactly inviting to newcomers.
Tribal
Member
It's a fine line to walk, though. Every gun store I've been in has always locked back the slide on a semi and handed the gun to me butt-first. I think it's their way of keeping safety first, as they know for sure that they're handing you an unloaded weapon and that the elves didn't secretly put a round in. There's no excuse for not taking off the trigger lock, though. I was at Bass Pro a few months ago and asked to be shown a revolver. When I bought my P22 there earlier the ex-military guy took off the lock and showed me around the gun. This guy was much younger and refused to remove it. I told him that there was no way I could possibly figure out how well the gun fit me with the lock still on and that he'd just lost a probable sale.
You're right, though: there does seem to be a clique, or rather, several. I can talk my way though self-defense semi-autos, but beyond that I'm way out of my league. Unless you're Jeff Cooper Reincarnated or R. Lee Ermey, trying to fit in with all kinds of gunnies is nearly impossible.
siglite
Member
Mr.72,
I really enjoyed reading your post. I think you had some damned insightful observations. Particularly about the cliquishness of some gun owners, and the idea that there are gun owners, and then there are gun owners. I forget what the last estimate of the number of guns in the US. But as someone who's on the range every weekend, I can tell you that the number of folks I see on the line is nowhere near what should be a representative count.
Let me preface this by saying, I think I'm a gun owner. Ten thousand rounds down range is a light year.
As to the cliquishness, I think you're right. Hunters. EBR folks. Cowboy shooters. Competition shooters. Benchrest guys. Clay poppers. Yeah, they all tend to be a bit cliquish. But I also think that's beginning to change. I think even the Fudds are starting to see that we have to stick together. At least for legislative purposes. Look at our pal Jim Zumbo. He found out what can happen when you betray another "clique."
Honestly, IMO, the internet is bringing us all together. I think people are becoming more accepting of diversity within gun culture. I personally have tried very hard to avoid the stereotyping, elitism, and cliquishness you describe. For me though, it's not about the contents of your wallet. It is about the direction of your vote. I don't require that you be a gun owner like me. I don't require anything. I've let the gangsta looking punk shoot my firearms on the range. And when he was done, I handed him a WVCDL flier. All I hope is that he votes for pro 2a legislators and politicians.
While I agree that the world will generally treat you exactly how you ask to be treated by the image you present to the world, I will not be so stupid as to alienate potential votes.
So Mr.72, in the end, I'm glad you got your firearm. And I hope you vote our way in November. And I hope you support pro-2a folks in your state legislature and local races. And I apologize for the cliquishness you've run into. But, again, I honestly think gun culture is changing rapidly. Becoming more "accepting."
I really enjoyed reading your post. I think you had some damned insightful observations. Particularly about the cliquishness of some gun owners, and the idea that there are gun owners, and then there are gun owners. I forget what the last estimate of the number of guns in the US. But as someone who's on the range every weekend, I can tell you that the number of folks I see on the line is nowhere near what should be a representative count.
Let me preface this by saying, I think I'm a gun owner. Ten thousand rounds down range is a light year.
As to the cliquishness, I think you're right. Hunters. EBR folks. Cowboy shooters. Competition shooters. Benchrest guys. Clay poppers. Yeah, they all tend to be a bit cliquish. But I also think that's beginning to change. I think even the Fudds are starting to see that we have to stick together. At least for legislative purposes. Look at our pal Jim Zumbo. He found out what can happen when you betray another "clique."
Honestly, IMO, the internet is bringing us all together. I think people are becoming more accepting of diversity within gun culture. I personally have tried very hard to avoid the stereotyping, elitism, and cliquishness you describe. For me though, it's not about the contents of your wallet. It is about the direction of your vote. I don't require that you be a gun owner like me. I don't require anything. I've let the gangsta looking punk shoot my firearms on the range. And when he was done, I handed him a WVCDL flier. All I hope is that he votes for pro 2a legislators and politicians.
While I agree that the world will generally treat you exactly how you ask to be treated by the image you present to the world, I will not be so stupid as to alienate potential votes.
So Mr.72, in the end, I'm glad you got your firearm. And I hope you vote our way in November. And I hope you support pro-2a folks in your state legislature and local races. And I apologize for the cliquishness you've run into. But, again, I honestly think gun culture is changing rapidly. Becoming more "accepting."
siglite, thanks for your response. I really didn't know what to expect from my post!
You are right, but I think the point of cliques is that they don't want to stick together.
When I first joined this forum, I began asking some questions about how to carry concealed given the restrictions of my wardrobe. I got a flood of responses along the lines of "protecting your own life should be worth changing your wardrobe". Not wanting to get into a big argument, I just left this alone and figured I'd be on my own figuring out how to carry within the limitations of my wardrobe.
Also many people have bashed me for my choice of firearm. Yeah, you know what, I selected it with a lot of research and insight and there were a number of factors including price, warranty, fit, features (capacity, safety), etc. But I got a bunch of people trying to tell me that I should have bought a Glock because "you can't put a price on your own safety", as in, no amount is too much to spend on a hand gun.
The fact is that I have lived 35 plus years now without carrying a gun. I have a peer group and considering the fact that I am on the platform leading worship for 6,000 people every week, I kind of have a reputation and image that I have earned, which I need to sustain. All of my friends, relatives, coworkers, fan base, congregation at church, etc. are not all of the sudden going to become a bunch of gun nuts just because I have made a change in my own choices. I'm not about to trade in my peer group for another one. So I am not going to conform to the gun clique, whichever one it might be. As far as I am concerned, if nobody ever notices that I carry other than the handful of close friends and family members with whom I carefully share my opinions, then all the better.
I am not sure that this is the problem. It's one thing to say, "yes, you can come be one of us". That's being accepting. But what we need is "no, you don't need to be one of us... the second Amendment is for everybody". Like, I don't have to be in some clique to go and buy bananas at the store. Why should I have to learn the routine, protocols, lingo, etc. to buy a gun? If I go to the counter and ask to see a gun, and there is some protocol or rules for handling it in the store, then tell me those rules while you hand it to me...
Here's a script for a gun shop visit that would have been 10,000 times better than the way my first one went:
me ... walk in looking like a noob who hasn't a clue about guns.
clerk: "is there something I can show you?"
me: "sure. maybe I can look at the Sigma"
clerk: "ok. this is a polymer-frame 9mm suitable for self defense and concealed carry [meanwhile gets it and releases the magazine, opens the slide]. With the slide open you can see that it is not loaded. [hands it to me] this lever releases the slide. Would you like me to remove the trigger lock for you?"
me [snapping the slide shut]: "sure, please do".
clerk: "this particular model has no manual safety but is known for having a heavy trigger"
me: "heavy? really? what do you mean..."
you see, at this point, maybe I would have walked out with a different gun. Maybe the conversation would have gone down to some issues about concealment, what my intent for owning the gun is, the value of high-capacity guns, this calibre vs. that calibre, etc. So I could have become more informed as a result of my visit. This is just smart retail.
Like this:
clerk: "if you are considering this gun for concealed carry, it may be rather large to conceal with the clothing you are wearing now."
me: "oh really? what do you mean?"
clerk: "well, this gun has a full size grip that is likely to show through with that fitted t-shirt. You might consider something thinner with a shorter grip, which will be much easier to conceal. The tradeoff is magazine capacity".
I think we should figure that if it's everyone's right to keep and bear arms, then that right doesn't have to come with the cost of buying an expensive firearm approved by the elites, or an exchange of peer group, or a complete change of wardrobe and vocabulary, etc. If I were the guy behind the counter I would have figured that some rock-band looking guy coming in looking at a gun may be planning to carry for self defense, so maybe I should make some suggestions according to what would work for self-defense with minimal impact to the rest of this person's life. But it seems many gun owners figure that you should have to make big changes to your lifestyle, appearance, etc. if you want to be a gun owner.
Well I don't want this to turn into a rant. I am still trying to figure out the gun crowd. For now I read this forum and interact a little bit figuring that I will learn a lot from everyone here, but I have to be ready to not fit in and also to judge the input for myself and reject some of it since it is just not compatible with my own life.
Don't worry though, I vote for those who support the Constitution, and not just any one Amendment. Unfortunately politicians such as this are few and far between, and when they do show up, they have extremely small chances of ever winning an election. Sometimes you just have to pick the lesser of the evils.
You are right, but I think the point of cliques is that they don't want to stick together.
When I first joined this forum, I began asking some questions about how to carry concealed given the restrictions of my wardrobe. I got a flood of responses along the lines of "protecting your own life should be worth changing your wardrobe". Not wanting to get into a big argument, I just left this alone and figured I'd be on my own figuring out how to carry within the limitations of my wardrobe.
Also many people have bashed me for my choice of firearm. Yeah, you know what, I selected it with a lot of research and insight and there were a number of factors including price, warranty, fit, features (capacity, safety), etc. But I got a bunch of people trying to tell me that I should have bought a Glock because "you can't put a price on your own safety", as in, no amount is too much to spend on a hand gun.
The fact is that I have lived 35 plus years now without carrying a gun. I have a peer group and considering the fact that I am on the platform leading worship for 6,000 people every week, I kind of have a reputation and image that I have earned, which I need to sustain. All of my friends, relatives, coworkers, fan base, congregation at church, etc. are not all of the sudden going to become a bunch of gun nuts just because I have made a change in my own choices. I'm not about to trade in my peer group for another one. So I am not going to conform to the gun clique, whichever one it might be. As far as I am concerned, if nobody ever notices that I carry other than the handful of close friends and family members with whom I carefully share my opinions, then all the better.
I am not sure that this is the problem. It's one thing to say, "yes, you can come be one of us". That's being accepting. But what we need is "no, you don't need to be one of us... the second Amendment is for everybody". Like, I don't have to be in some clique to go and buy bananas at the store. Why should I have to learn the routine, protocols, lingo, etc. to buy a gun? If I go to the counter and ask to see a gun, and there is some protocol or rules for handling it in the store, then tell me those rules while you hand it to me...
Here's a script for a gun shop visit that would have been 10,000 times better than the way my first one went:
me ... walk in looking like a noob who hasn't a clue about guns.
clerk: "is there something I can show you?"
me: "sure. maybe I can look at the Sigma"
clerk: "ok. this is a polymer-frame 9mm suitable for self defense and concealed carry [meanwhile gets it and releases the magazine, opens the slide]. With the slide open you can see that it is not loaded. [hands it to me] this lever releases the slide. Would you like me to remove the trigger lock for you?"
me [snapping the slide shut]: "sure, please do".
clerk: "this particular model has no manual safety but is known for having a heavy trigger"
me: "heavy? really? what do you mean..."
you see, at this point, maybe I would have walked out with a different gun. Maybe the conversation would have gone down to some issues about concealment, what my intent for owning the gun is, the value of high-capacity guns, this calibre vs. that calibre, etc. So I could have become more informed as a result of my visit. This is just smart retail.
Like this:
clerk: "if you are considering this gun for concealed carry, it may be rather large to conceal with the clothing you are wearing now."
me: "oh really? what do you mean?"
clerk: "well, this gun has a full size grip that is likely to show through with that fitted t-shirt. You might consider something thinner with a shorter grip, which will be much easier to conceal. The tradeoff is magazine capacity".
I think we should figure that if it's everyone's right to keep and bear arms, then that right doesn't have to come with the cost of buying an expensive firearm approved by the elites, or an exchange of peer group, or a complete change of wardrobe and vocabulary, etc. If I were the guy behind the counter I would have figured that some rock-band looking guy coming in looking at a gun may be planning to carry for self defense, so maybe I should make some suggestions according to what would work for self-defense with minimal impact to the rest of this person's life. But it seems many gun owners figure that you should have to make big changes to your lifestyle, appearance, etc. if you want to be a gun owner.
Well I don't want this to turn into a rant. I am still trying to figure out the gun crowd. For now I read this forum and interact a little bit figuring that I will learn a lot from everyone here, but I have to be ready to not fit in and also to judge the input for myself and reject some of it since it is just not compatible with my own life.
Don't worry though, I vote for those who support the Constitution, and not just any one Amendment. Unfortunately politicians such as this are few and far between, and when they do show up, they have extremely small chances of ever winning an election. Sometimes you just have to pick the lesser of the evils.
You owe the dealer an apology Dude...
If you had slammed one of my babies' cylinders shut you would've gotten a worse tongue lashing than you got from the gun dealer. If you don't know how to handle a valuable firearm properly, don't ask to touch it! As to your dress, if you look like a slob/jerk you will be treated as such...Hersh
If you had slammed one of my babies' cylinders shut you would've gotten a worse tongue lashing than you got from the gun dealer. If you don't know how to handle a valuable firearm properly, don't ask to touch it! As to your dress, if you look like a slob/jerk you will be treated as such...Hersh
siglite
Member
This is actually what I meant. You just phrased it better. I think that gun culture is waking up to exactly what you describe. Not only do I think it's starting to happen, I think it's absolute folly to promote and perpetuate the "good ole boys" club that I've seen on ranges and in gun stores in the past. Honestly, it makes me fairly angry when I see it happening in person. We need that vote. Please do not alienate this person!
Bluestarlizzard touched on another issue of gun store stereotyping that likewise annoys the hell out of me. And that's condescending attitudes towards women. That "well hi there little lady, here, you should look at this compact .380" crap. From BLS's response, she's used to it, and has learned to deal with it. Which is great for her. But my concern is for a female neophyte in the situation you were in. New to things. Intimidated by the vastness that is the firearms world. And then to have to run into the "little lady" condescension at the counter or on the range.
But I remain optimistic that gun culture is becoming more open. More recognizing of the fact, and the reality that a young black man in urban (some would say 'gangster') attire has the same inalienable rights as everyone else.
This is a wise philosophy for dealing with THR and other gun boards throughout the internet. There's a lot of noise out there, for a little bit of signal. One does get better at tuning in the right frequency for himself over time, though. Even at the gun counter.
3KillerBs
Member
@siglite,
You have a lot of good points there. And there is a definite case to be made that a good sales professional should be ready to provide meaningful assistance and education to an obvious newbie (though I would say that a newbie should be equally responsible for either doing some preliminary research or for finding a knowledgeable person among their acquaintances to ask for assistance with the fundamentals).
However, cultural signals do exist and they do matter. The salespeople and shop owners have a right to assume that the image a person is presenting is the image that person wants to project and to adjust their reaction accordingly.
Its true that a young adult of either sex and any race who is mentally sound and not a criminal has as much right to carry as anyone.
But if that person deliberately makes the choice to present the image of a wannabe gangster -- and there isn't the proverbial snowball's chance you know where that a young adult in the USA doesn't know what the cultural signals of baggy pants worn below the hip joint and a shirt 10 sizes too big mean -- then the people selling the guns have the right to believe what that person is saying about himself and to decide that they don't want to take the chance of selling a gun that's going to end up facilitating crime.
Clothes and other body adornments are the fundamental way that humans declare both their group affiliations and the degree of respect they hold for the society and culture that they live in. If a person doesn't want others to believe that they belong to a particular group they shouldn't be wearing that group's "colors".
Its a matter of taking responsibility for one's choices and the consequences thereof. After all, isn't personal responsibility what being an armed citizen is about in the first place?
You have a lot of good points there. And there is a definite case to be made that a good sales professional should be ready to provide meaningful assistance and education to an obvious newbie (though I would say that a newbie should be equally responsible for either doing some preliminary research or for finding a knowledgeable person among their acquaintances to ask for assistance with the fundamentals).
However, cultural signals do exist and they do matter. The salespeople and shop owners have a right to assume that the image a person is presenting is the image that person wants to project and to adjust their reaction accordingly.
Its true that a young adult of either sex and any race who is mentally sound and not a criminal has as much right to carry as anyone.
But if that person deliberately makes the choice to present the image of a wannabe gangster -- and there isn't the proverbial snowball's chance you know where that a young adult in the USA doesn't know what the cultural signals of baggy pants worn below the hip joint and a shirt 10 sizes too big mean -- then the people selling the guns have the right to believe what that person is saying about himself and to decide that they don't want to take the chance of selling a gun that's going to end up facilitating crime.
Clothes and other body adornments are the fundamental way that humans declare both their group affiliations and the degree of respect they hold for the society and culture that they live in. If a person doesn't want others to believe that they belong to a particular group they shouldn't be wearing that group's "colors".
Its a matter of taking responsibility for one's choices and the consequences thereof. After all, isn't personal responsibility what being an armed citizen is about in the first place?
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siglite
Member
I wonder. I agree with you to an extent. I posted in the thread earlier, that if someone is wearing gang colors, is it unwise of us to assume they are a gang member for defensive purposes? I guess, in the interest of fairness I have to allow for a counter clerk at a gun store to do the same. But the problem comes in as one of misidentification.
I have had classes on gang identification. I've learned a lot about actually identifying gang members, and how they "represent." And let me tell you, not every black man who's dressed "hip" is "representing." Baggy pants and an oversized sports jersey do not equate to gang representation. Unfortunately, outside of law enforcement (for the record, I am not in law enforcement) I think that MOST people cannot draw a distinction between urban attire and actual gang attire. And the way that attire is worn. And what it means. And how clothing manufacturers cater to the gangs.
Regardless, your point is valid. But if someone passes the NCIS check, what happened to innocent until proven guilty? And why alienate potential voters?
3KillerBs
Member
Maybe not to authentic gang representation but its certainly wannabe-ism and there isn't all that sharp a line between stupidity and malice.
siglite
Member
I have to disagree with you on this point. In the seminars I attended, they taught us there is no "wanabee." There is "gonnabe." And the "gonnabees" are already representing for the gang they intend to join. Youthful and "hip" dress simply do not equate to gang membership, or wannabe membership.
There are actual ways you can identify both gangsters and wannabees based on what they wear and how they wear it. But I think it's OT for the thread, and probably the board. I'll gladly discuss some of it in PM with you if you like.
I often see people mistake freedom of expression with not being judged on your expression. I'm free to say "god hates fags, praise god for dead soldiers." Its my first amendment right. It doesn't mean that you can't look at me like the vile despicable excuse for a human I'd be for doing so. You would, I certainly hope, treat me differently for what I've expressed. Similarly the urban youth that is emulating gangsters is going to have to deal with the effects of his freedom. He is free to express himself in that way, but not free from the effects of doing so.
As an example our own Larry Correia has a post here http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2007/10/12/the-joys-of-being-a-gun-dealer/ where a guy came in and acted like a nut and was treated like a nut. Should he have embraced his behavior as delightful eccentricity?
You shouldn't have to play any particular stereotyped role to buy a gun, but if you do emulate gangsters you only have yourself to blame if you get treated like one. Perception is an important part of society and you accept that every time you go for a job interview, date, or to sell to a customer.
siglite
Member
While I find little fault with your post soybomb, the problem is one of misidentification. Often, I see "urban youth" MIS-identified as "emulating gangsters." To someone outside the culture, or lacking a trained eye, the differences may seem subtle. But the reality is, that people often paint with far too broad of a brush.
** ETA: I think the OP and Mr.72 likely experienced that overly broad brush first hand.
This may be starting to drift a little but I find it interesting, hopefully others do too
If you're an inside member of a some culture can you reasonably expect others to know the intricacies that denote certain things? Is it really that unfair of society to see a guy wearing a night gown sized shirt and clown pants and make a judgement about him? To take another example not all skinheads are racists but if you fit the skinhead image the public has, can you fault them for not knowing the history of skinheads and the different flavors of skinheads? A member of the skinhead subculture might know a bonehead from an oi skin but when you take the razor to your head you have to accept that most of the people that see you are just going to think racist. As much as society likes the idea of diversity and a world blind to all of our differences, we also all know that things don't work that way. If you tread a line that fine, you must be comfortable with people not getting it right.
Gun owners face the same thing. I think part of what happens on THR is showing society that gun owners don't fit the stereotyped image of a gun owner. The recent Armed America book was another attempt at changing that. Best attempts aside though, most of us probably realize that when we tell a stranger that we own guns that they're going to make judgements about us and drop us into a stereotyped image. If I do that to myself in the wrong time and place, I really have only myself to blame as I knew the risks when I did so. Isn't it the same thing when you put on anything resembling the accoutrements of any subculture?
pbearperry
Member
Ok I have the answer.If you are a guy that loves to have all kinds of tattoos showing but want to fit in with Gunshop owners,have the Ten Commandments of Firearm Safety tattooed on your face.That way everybody is happy.Now wasn't that easy?
siglite
Member
Sure. Though, you have to look a bit deeper if you're going to pass judgment on looks alone. For example, I have a shaved head. and I wear earthen colored cargo pants about everywhere. Usually I have a dark colored t-shirt on. Really, about the only thing that's different about my appearance than the obvious skin-heads I've seen, is that I don't blouse my pants into my boots, and my boots are only 6" high instead of the full 12. Heh, I'd never considered that I myself might be mistaken for a skinhead. But you know what, now that you mention it, it could happen. The irony is that I only shave my head because I'm rolling up on middle-aged, and I'm balding. And my wife assures me that bald is sexy. (hmph)
But a skinned head alone does not make one a skinhead. Baggy pants alone do not make one a gangster. I think a lot of people just see baggy pants and jump straight to "gangster." Or they see a mohawk and think "punk trouble maker." Maybe they see a tattoo or five and think "convict." Or they see a shaved head (now I'm laughing) and think "skinhead." Believe me, "skinhead" is not the image I'm trying to present to the world. I'm just into comfort. And well... not walking around with a reverse high-n-tight
Sure, some people intentionally present these thug/criminal/fringe images to the world. And if they do, they've got to deal with the social consequences of it. And it's ridiculous of any of them not to expect that treatment.
I guess my whole point, is to avoid painting with too broad a brush. Because people who wear baggy pants, have shaved heads, and have some visible tattoos have the right to vote, and they have the right to keep and bear arms. Why be so threatened of that which appears "different" that you alienate part of the voting base, that instead could be with you at the polls.
siglite
Member
As an afterthought, baggy clothes don't identify people as gangsters, even among gangsters. It's the colors, commercial logos, and the way those logos are worn that do it.
siglite
Member
I haven't seen "Crash." Worth the time? Gun related at all?
Brian Dale
Member
Great posts, mr.72. Thanks for sharing your insight. One nugget is especially golden:
There's a guy around here named Oleg Volk who writes a lot of stuff like that.mr.72 said:
- Status
