Guns on Ships?

[cbrgator]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/04/26/somalia.pirates/index.html

(CNN) -- The captain of an Italian cruise ship foiled an attack by pirates off the coast of Somalia on Saturday by ordering his security crew to fire back, Italy's ANSA news agency reported.

Six armed pirates in a speedboat attacked the ship, which had about 1,500 people onboard, ANSA said. They fled after the security crew fired back.

The cruise ship Melody, which is owned by an Italian company, was on its way back to Italy after a cruise, ANSA said.

No one was injured in the attack about 180 miles north of the Seychelles.

Piracy is rampant off the coast of Somalia despite the presence of foreign navies. The area hardest hit off the coasts of Somalia and Kenya, including the Gulf of Aden, is more than 1.1 million square miles -- four times the size of the state of Texas.

Why was this ship allowed to carry guns? I thought that was banned??? I'm happy they were armed but I thought it was illegal.

 

[freakshow10mm]

International waters.

 

[cbrgator]

What happens why they are in port? Why haven't other ships been doing this?

 

[colorado_handgunner]

Firearms on ships are not banned, to my knowledge. Furthermore, the US could issue a letter of marque allowing a merchant vessel to be outfitted with military hardware and act as agent for the US military. This is the direction, I believe, we should head to.

 

[akodo]

I believe it isn't a ban, but an 'all parties agree' trade related issue. Any trade ship flying flag of a nation not signing onto that agreement gets to sit in the bay never unloading it's cargo.

cruise ships of course aren't covered.

 

[Oro]

I would be much more concerned if cruise ships DIDN'T have reasonably trained and armed security forces. Even without the pirate threat, these are prime terrorist targets and officials have recognized that for some time. And don't forget how outraged the Italians were over the Achille Lauro incident back in the '80s. As I recall, the terrorists act of dumping the dead body of wheel-chair bound senior citizen overboard (US citizen, actually) really hardened public and official attitudes.

 

[amprecon]

I'm just perplexed as to why ships haven't been armed.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

I know for a fact that some US Flaged merchant marine ships (MSC) are armed, but most are not. When I was a boarding agent I was instructed to relieve the Captain of a US Flaged vessel of his .38 revolver by her owners.

I never boarded a foreign flag vessel that was armed. I may be wrong, but it was always my understanding that if the country that owned the vessel allowed it's vessels to have small arms it was legal in the United States. When a vessel was found to have legal small arms, U.S. Customs would put a seal on the arms locker while it was in port. That was mostly prior to 9/11 (I retired 2 months after), but there have been a lot of changes since 9/11.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

I once boarded a sailing vessel that had 16 small arms. All were American made, but because the owner did not register them with Customs prior to his departure they were seized upon arrival. I finally got his guns released, but I had to petetion ATF and write a lot of letters. Had the owner produced bills of sale for the guns there would have been no problem.

 

[Grey54956]

Holy Cats!

Shooting at pirates actually worked. Will wonders never cease? I always thought that shooting at pirates wasn't at all effective given their death ray lasers, magnetic shielding and advanced armour plate...

Oh wait, that's giant space robots.

 

[Oro]

because the owner did not register them with Customs prior to his departure they were seized upon arrival.

That is a good point, 351. I was doing some homework last year about taking guns to Canada for wilderness trips. Most information places did not mention that you really needed to stop at customs on your way outbound and fill out a, I think it was something like "Declaration of Goods Taken Abroad" or something to that effect. This was your "re-entry" ticket. It seems lots of folks focused on the foreign regs and forgot about their return...

 

[shooter429]

What about private U.S. owned vessels

Anybody know of any USCG restrictions on private yaghts, for example?

Shooter429

 

[mormandy1]

I have often thought that a small "security force" on a large ship of maybe a half dozen well trained men with .308 semi-auto rifles at their disposal, along with one or two well placed .50 BMG deck guns would pretty much put an end to the whole thing.

If an international treaty is needed to make this happen, so be it. This whole piracy thing could be stopped easily really.

Why on earth would a shipping company with a ship / cargo valued in the tens of millions not invest 20 grand in arming each ship / crew if the legal details could be worked out?

This Italian ship obviously goes into port like any other ship and they saw fit to have a security force.

Bottom line, these "pirates" are just muslim terrorists, punks at that. Confronted by even a half dozen well trained men with weapons and especially a small deck gun like a .50 BMG they will run with tails tucked firmly between legs.

 

[wmullis]

Can you imagine outfitting every ship that passes within 500 miles of the African coast. Most of the ships are only carrying about 12-24 crew on board. It makes sense to outfit passenger cruise lines with a huge liability for the lives of paying guests. I say arm the crew and utilize training to allow them to defend themselves in an attempted attack.
IMHO - It wouldn't take many of those before the easy money train ground to a sudden halt.

 

[ArmedBear]

Furthermore, the US could issue a letter of marque allowing a merchant vessel to be outfitted with military hardware and act as agent for the US military. This is the direction, I believe, we should head to.

Suddenly, Ron Paul doesn't seem so quaint and anachronistic...

 

[sohcgt2]

Do you want a Turkish flagged ship armed in the port of Jacksonville, Norfolk, or Philadelphia?

 

[.455_Hunter]

Do you want a Turkish flagged ship armed in the port of Jacksonville, Norfolk, or Philadelphia?

Sure, why not?

If the defensive arms are properly secured or supervised, what is the issue?

 

[withdrawn34]

Ships need to be defined as sovereign territories of their flag countries. We're not talking about ships armed similar to a Navy destroyer... just allowing the crew to have at least shotguns and rifles.

It's not even a matter of firing first. These scum pirates are already saying "hello" by firing on the sides and deck of the ships with AK fire before even trying to come aboard. It's not an issue of escalation of violence, but legitimate self-defense.

We also need to implement Ron Paul's idea of Letters of Marque. Unfortunately, its already been dismissed. The goons in DC don't know anything - the one level headed and correct resource they do have, they ignore. It's completely uncool in Washington to be correct, logical, and have effective solutions. Sad.

 

[sohcgt2]

Sure, why not?

If the defensive arms are properly secured or supervised, what is the issue?

Are you also willing to pay higher prices and taxes. Or did you not think about who will do the supervising? Or maybe its ok with you because you are in the middle of the country and there would be no direct effect of port security.

 

[theken206]

so wait the italians won a battle??

has anyone checked the weather in hell recently?

 

[503glock]

lol no the italians didnt win the battle but his israeli guards did the ship hired guards from that great country . now they know how to deal with bad guys there...lol

 

[theken206]

see now that makes sense

 

[WardenWolf]

My opinion: ships need to be outfitted to repel borders, and weapons are not the whole solution. All cargo ships should be outfitted with electric fences that can be activated and deactivated from the bridge. Some good old-fashioned farming technology would go a long way to prevent people from boarding in the first place. They could install systems that would electrify the water around the ship. Would-be pirate gets his feet in the water? Well, better hope they have a defibrilator onboard.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Do you want a Turkish flagged ship armed in the port of Jacksonville, Norfolk, or Philadelphia?

Sure, why not?
If the defensive arms are properly secured or supervised, what is the issue?

Are you also willing to pay higher prices and taxes. Or did you not think about who will do the supervising? Or maybe its ok with you because you are in the middle of the country and there would be no direct effect of port security.

Hi sohcgt2,

My location has nothing to due with my statement. What is wrong with the Turkish merchant fleet? Are they somewhat morally inferior to the US Merchant Marine? I think that the ship bearing the flag of any friendly county, especially a fellow NATO country, is entitled to defend itself from pirates. Armed foreign military ships make ports of call on a regular basis in the US without issue. Your argument sounds kind of familiar- just replace "Turkish flagged ship" with "CCW permit holder" and "port of Jacksonville, Norfolk, or Philadelphia" with "local mall or community college".

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Ive been in all the ports from Norfolk to Boston.

Many different cargo ships with different flags. Now keep in mind this was a long time prior to 911 and as long you did not board the ship itself you were still in US Territory. I could care less what the ship was packing. I did care if the sailors were coming downtown to play with the locals in the bars in certain areas of town if they were armed or not.

I quit worrying about the pirate issue. That Italian cruise ship set a fine example. Other ships have fight back as well.

Those toasters will still get to your local walmart one day sooner or later, pirates or not. Dont fear.