Gunshop staff attitude: is this savvy?

[Gator]

Always ask first.

 

[Glockman17366]

I also ask if I can dry fire first. That's gives them the option to give me a snap cap if they want to.

 

[orionengnr]

Should have been a poll. I think it would be about 90% "ask" by now...

 

[texas bulldog]

I'm not going to assume it's rude to dry fire without first asking unless there's a sign saying otherwise, particularly with used guns.

really? do you need signs in place to tell you to participate in other practices of common courtesy? i would ask before i did anything with someone else's property. the question really has nothing to do with dry-firing, and i don't need a sign to know what's polite.

Just because you're not hearing what you wanted to hear, doesn't mean everyone else is wrong.

+1

 

[Sonora Rebel]

Ehhh?

It's not my shop 'n not my gun. I'd ask first. I never dry fire any of my pistols. I let the hammer down (gently). Just somethin' I do... 'Rifles are different (obviously) 'cept for the lever guns. I lower those gently too.

 

[Glockman17366]

"do you need signs in place to tell you to participate in other practices of common courtesy?"

It's a sad fact, but "common" courtesy isn't so common anymore...

 

[Caimlas]

Well yea, it is, but most people have the good manners to ask first. Now, stop me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that you came here to ask. Just because you're not hearing what you wanted to hear, doesn't mean everyone else is wrong.

Unfortunately most of the people here aren't answering the question initially asked, which was whether or not the shop owner was being rude. They're jumping up and saying, "hey, don't do that, be polite!"

really? do you need signs in place to tell you to participate in other practices of common courtesy?

Just because you and a bunch of other people interject that something is common does not make it so. The only time I have heard someone ask to dry fire a centerfire resulted in the shop's proprietor looking at the guy amusedly and saying, "sure, I don't see why not". Maybe they used to do things differently, but I've never seen it (I'm pretty young) - and that's from the over-40/50 customers, too.

Additionally, it did not occur to me that when asking to "take a look" it was not akin to asking to dry fire and otherwise do a function check of the firearm. Here's why: "Taking a look under the hood", as I understand it, implies checking function. As I've understood it, "mind if I take a look", whether it's to inspect something for purchase or attempting to fix a damaged computer, implies that the person taking the look is going to dig around and check things. It's like, "how ya doin'?" - a colloquialism which doesn't mean exactly what it says and largely depends on context.

Now that I understand that isn't the case with guns though, I do intend to ask prior to dry firing.
I'm really kind of surprised how this thread went. A large number of the responses were not high road, though there were some who chose to act unlike the shop matron.

 

[Justin]

I've never been told "No, don't dry fire," but I always ask.

I was, recently, while handling a Sig P210. But I figure the guy was nice enough to let me tire kick a pistol with a four-figure price tag, I'm not going to quibble over whether he should let me dry fire it or not.

 

[TimboKhan]

Is it just me, or was his response to my dry-firing of the pistol completely off-base and inappropriate?

I always ask out of simple courtesy, and for the fact that I know it makes some people nervous. With that in mind, I don't feel it was off-base or inappropriate. I wasn't there and maybe he said it a little snottier than it needed to be said, but I don't think the statement in and of itself is particularly inappropriate. I actually have been reprimanded by clerks for hitting the slide release and not easing the slide home, which I personally don't understand. I mean, I want to know how easy/hard it is to use that control, and I don't think I am hurting the gun. Still, I ask about doing that now just to keep from freaking anyone out.

By the way Gator, thats a perfectly cromulent qoute you have there....

 

[JohnKSa]

Unfortunately most of the people here aren't answering the question initially asked, which was whether or not the shop owner was being rude.

Sorry, I thought that was understood.

No, the shop owner was not being rude. You assumed that his permission to "take a look" meant that you could do anything to the gun that you consider "common practice." THAT was rude. He was simply responding in a very understandable way to your taking liberties with his property.

He handled it quite politely. He didn't jump on you, command you to stop, grab the gun away, loudly chide you, call you names, etc. He simply advised you in a quite non-confrontational fashion that you shouldn't repeat the behavior. I disagree with his advice (I believe that you should be able to dry-fire after politely making the request), but from your description of the event his response seems very reasonable and not at all rude.

 

[mustanger98]

Any gun salesman who denies me the right to fully function check a weapon that I figure I may have to bet my life on... they are the ones who are rude regardless of how they say it. If I'm looking to buy, I will know the relationship between grip, trigger, and sights and how those effect each other. No dry fire = no sale. End of story.

 

[TimboKhan]

No dry fire = no sale. End of story.

Thats a perfectly fine attitude to have, but it ignores the question of whether you would just dry-fire at will, or whether you would ask first.

 

[mustanger98]

If you look back at my first post in this thread, you'll notice I said I do ask first. No dry fire and I take my business somewhere I can tell more about what I'm buying.

 

[ssr]

.

 

[JohnKSa]

Any gun salesman who denies me the right to fully function check a weapon that I figure I may have to bet my life on... they are the ones who are rude regardless of how they say it.

No, this is not correct.

You have no RIGHT to do anything with HIS gun. If he doesn't want you to dryfire it there's nothing rude about it. He may lose a sale, but it's his gun and therefore it's his rules too.

There is no RIGHT to dryfire someone else's firearm. There is no RIGHT to "fully function check" someone else's weapon.

For what it's worth, I think that a prospective buyer should be allowed to dryfire a gun (barring cases where dryfire would cause damage). But if the owner says no, that's HIS right. At that point you can either walk or buy, but until you buy, it's still his and he gets to say what you can or can't do with it.

I'm beginning to get a feel for why so many gun store owners tend to be less than jovial. Apparently some prospective gun buyers feel that walking into a gun store essentially gives them partial ownership rights of any gun they feel like handling for as long as they're in the store.

 

[CajunBass]

Unfortunately most of the people here aren't answering the question initially asked, which was whether or not the shop owner was being rude. They're jumping up and saying, "hey, don't do that, be polite!"

Actually I think everyone has answered your question, but since we're not saying what you want to hear, I suppose it has to be spelled out. No, the shop owner was not being rude. You were.

 

[Rustynuts]

I think there are some guns that don't like dry fire. The KelTec P-3AT is one. I saw some supposed dry fire damage to some pins/screws (forget which) over at KTOG forums. I usually use snapcaps on my guns for practice. Shops, I always ask first.

 

[XavierBreath]

I'll go back to the original question.

Caimlas: Is it just me, or was his response to my dry-firing of the pistol completely off-base and inappropriate?

The shop owner's attitude towards you was not good for business, in my opinion. His response was off base in that people should be allowed to dry fire 1911s in gun shops. Customers should still ask permission first. You have no control over the shop owner's attitude. You only have control over your patronage.

Your feelings afterwards are also off base and inappropriate. This is likely because of the condescending attitude directed at you by the shop owner, and I don't fault you for that. Your feelings though, are off base and inappropriate. You do have control over them.

Step back, look at it unemotionally, and decide how you would want other's to treat your gun. That will tell you how you should treat the guns belonging to others.

Because you got rather tripped up on this courtesy between shooters, I'm guessing that you may get tripped up on some others. Fr. Frog did a page a while back on gun manners. I copied it to my blog here. Take a look, you may find another thing or two you did not realize that could trip you up. Maybe, maybe not.

There is no foul in not knowing a common courtesy. There is, however, foul in not accepting it and extending it once it is explained. This thread is rapidly becoming a circular argument ripe for disagreements taken personally. Let's avoid that. I came close to just closing the thread to avoid such exchanges, but I like to believe we can keep a discussion like this on the high road.

This tale reminds me of why I do not own a Colt WWI Repro. I have seen two that were being offered for sale. The first one had an off center recoil plug hole. No buy. I saw the second one about a year later, and it appeared to be perfect, with a fair price. I had the money in my pocket. I asked to see the gun. The gun was not zip tied, and the seller handed it to me chamber closed, slide forward. I started to lock the slide back. The seller quickly and loudly asked me not to, stating that this was a new gun, a collector's piece, and that he did not want the action worked. I was dumbfounded. I had just been handed a gun that I did not know whether it was loaded or not. I have always taught others to open an action to check if a gun is loaded prior to handing it to someone else. This courtesy had not been extended to me, and now, I was being told not to do the same before returning the gun to the seller. Was I perturbed? Yes. Did my ears get red? Yes. I carefully laid the gun down on the table, and the seller quickly snatched it up, swept me with the muzzle, and put it back in his glass gun show case. I started to explain, but realized it would not be worth my effort. I did not buy a Colt WWI Repro at that gun show, and he did not sell a Colt WWI Repro at that gun show.

You see, anyone can get tripped up on this stuff. In my case, and in yours, both the potential seller and potential buyer got tripped up. The sellers wanted to sell, and they did not. The buyers wanted to buy and they did not. The one ingredient that was missing in each exchange was understanding what the other man thought was common courtesy.

From Jim Supica, a noted and prominent collector and gun writer, I will add:

Collector Courtesy and Safety - Gun shows, etc.

There are special concerns for us who are gun collectors, dealers, and enthusiasts. There are some additional rules in collector situations, whether it be the worlds largest gun show or a friend’s gun room, that are a combination of safety and courtesy. Violation of these rules is the quickest way to prove yourself a lout and gun amateur, and to wear out your welcome:

1. Never handle a gun without asking the owners permission.

2. Never open the mechanism, dry fire, or otherwise manipulate a collectible gun without asking the owners permission.

3. If you are showing your guns, triple check to be sure they are unloaded. It is a good practice to tie the guns with plastic cable ties so they are inoperative, and do not display any loose, unsealed ammunition. Well-run gun shows will require this.

4. Control your children. Strictly enforce the no touch rule.

5. About load checking ... This is a bit of a touchy subject, so please consider it carefully. In a field or range situation, it is an accepted and expected practice to check any gun you receive to be sure whether or not it is loaded. However, in a collector setting such as a gun show, this may not always be possible. On some very valuable mint condition or highly decorated arms, working the mechanism to check the loaded status runs the risk of marring the finish and significantly reducing the dollar value assigned to new in the box, unfired, unturned condition. This makes adherence to basic rules #1 (treat every gun as if loaded), #2 (muzzle control), and #4 (finger off trigger) even more vital. A quality show will require all guns brought into the show by the public to be load checked at the door.

6. Most quality gun shows prohibit loaded firearms, including legal concealed carry. This is not an anti-CCW stance by the promoter, but practical recognition of the fact that negligent discharges have occurred when concealed carry guns have been pulled out at shows to get an appraisal, try a holster, fit grips, show a friend, etc., etc., etc. IF you are at a rare show that permits CCW, DO NOT under any circumstances remove your CCW firearm from it's holster inside the show.

 

[mustanger98]

JohnKSa, Your post sounds like some of the gun salesmen I've dealt with... the ones I don't deal with now. If a shop values my business, it shows. If they don't, that shows up real big too. I believe a buyer and seller each have rights. I said that was my opinion. I never said you had to like it.

 

[XavierBreath]

Any gun salesman who denies me the right to fully function check a weapon that I figure I may have to bet my life on... they are the ones who are rude regardless of how they say it.

mustanger98, it seems to me that you will not be "betting your life" on that gun until you own it. Until you own it, it belongs to someone else. You should respect the other person enough to abide by his wishes, regardless of whether you feel the wishes are justified. If you don't like his wishes, take your business elsewhere. There are lots of gun for sale and lots of customers.

 

[mustanger98]

If you don't like his wishes, take your business elsewhere. There are lots of gun for sale and lots of customers.

I did and there are. As for respect, that works both ways.

 

[XavierBreath]

The question, mustanger98, is not whether you should dry fire a pistol prior to buying it, but whether you should ask prior to dry firing. You state that you ask. If the seller says "No, please don't dry fire my gun," I assume you do not dry fire it. According to you, you take your business elsewhere. So what's your point? Do you think they are disrespecting you by asking you not to dry fire their gun?

 

[krimmie]

I think the main issue here, regardless of someone being a customer or not, is that some people don't like their guns dry fired. I, for one, don't dry fire my guns...and I make that point known to all that come into contact with my guns. It's a basic case of courtesy; if it's not yours, don't touch without permission.

 

[mustanger98]

Do you think they are disrespecting you by asking you not to dry fire their gun?

XavierBreath, I've had a range of experiences with gun shop sales people who generally acted like they were "holier than thou" towards me... basically, I was faced with a caveman and a used car salesman. The dry fire issue is only part of a bigger picture of disrespect from sales people... people who either thought I was an easy target to pawn off a bum used gun (as opposed to a good one; the tech9 pusher comes to mind) or they didn't know me, didn't want to get to know me, and didn't care if they sold me a gun or not.

The last used gun I bought is a Walther P-38... German surplus. While I had it in my hands, I asked the guy how he felt about dry firing. He said it won't hurt it; go ahead. I bought the gun. We were on the same page. I left that shop on friendly terms.

 

[XavierBreath]

It is indeed aggravating to have to suffer condescension just to buy a gun. I, myself, refuse to do it. Nobody should have to. I, too, have stopped shopping at places simply because of the way I was treated by sales staff. Because I tend to go for esoteric one of a kind guns and old uncommon stuff, this is as much my loss as the shops I do not shop at.

Every once in a while, as I drive past one particular shop, I will almost stop to see what they have. They always carried a wide selection of used, but top drawer custom guns, high quality used revolvers, and had fair, if a bit high prices. They would haggle on the prices. Then I recall an experience I had about seven years ago in the establishment, and I keep on driving. They are still in business. I am still buying guns. I still see the owner and a couple of his employees at matches. Neither he nor I have suffered, except that we have not reconciled our differences, and I do not extend him my patronage. That is my loss as much as it is his. Perhaps someday I will darken his door again. I just have not felt the desire to do so yet. Pride can be a powerful thing.