Guy waves gun around at work

[joab]

Holy Cow, you wanted me to leave MY HOME!

Nice twist

Apparently in all your condescension you failed to read the many references to it not being illegal to carry at work here in Florida

I also have held many jobs
Some of them included the hiring and firing of employees and answering those reference calls from prospective employers of fired employees
I was only allowed to state that the employee had worked for us for the time period that he worked for us, anything more would have set the company up for a lawsuit
I know this for a fact because I helped two former employees at two different companies set up lawsuits for this very reason

You do not know as much as you would like to think you do

It does not take any reaching to see that you are advising to quit a job that does not allow CCW ,if you feel you need to carry, to avoid legal and resume problems even though it has been explained to you more than once by more than one poster that this is not an issue here

We really don't care how you do it up north

 

[Guntalk]

Basically, here are my thoughts.

I think one should obey the law.

I think one should consider following the restrictions placed by an employer. This consideration involves many things, from how it would affect you should you be fired, to how real the threat is (?), to how you would carry, to what measures are in place to discover your legal but employer-restricted firearm.

A person who has the option of moving should not live in an area which is not safe. It's just nuts to do so.

A person who has the option of changing jobs to an employer who does not require you to sacrifice your personal safety as a way of improving the company's bottom line is crazy to not change jobs, or careers.

Just personal opinion here, of course. Not easy choices, and I don't say they are.

A company which requires one to be unsafe is not a company worthy of loyalty.

As for breaking the law, I'm not going to do it, but civil disobedience has a long and honored history in this country. Each person must come to his or her own conclusion regarding that thorny situation.

 

[Jerry Morris]

It does not take any reaching to see that you are advising to quit a job that does not allow CCW ,if you feel you need to carry, to avoid legal and resume problems even though it has been explained to you more than once by more than one poster that this is not an issue here

Well, DUH!

I also have held many jobs
Some of them included the hiring and firing of employees and answering those reference calls from prospective employers of fired employees
I was only allowed to state that the employee had worked for us for the time period that he worked for us, anything more would have set the company up for a lawsuit
I know this for a fact because I helped two former employees at two different companies set up lawsuits for this very reason

I have done second interviews myself. I also know how things got said, without being said. I also know, no one EVER got sued for giving a raving,or even just a decently good recommendation. If true, that last line of this quote is something I would really, really not want any prospective employer to know. Communication skills show in job applications, applicant interviews and reviews. When I did reviews, I assessed all the issues. Credit, past employment, all of it. "He worked here, we have no further comment put one lower on the list than, We want HIM back!"

It does not take any reaching to see that you are advising to quit a job that does not allow CCW ,if you feel you need to carry, to avoid legal and resume problems even though it has been explained to you more than once by more than one poster that this is not an issue here

Myself, I have a problem with rule breakers. Rule Breakers accept the rules and then break them. This is not THR. It is dishonorable, it is the sign of a Liar (which I also looked for in my job interviews and reviews). It shows a willingness to not follow ones words of promise. If this is your way of Life, the discussion is better ended now.

I moved this line out of the statement. I misread your post. Consider this deleted.
*Again, your communications skills fail you. You ignore, or miss the conditional statements. I said if the danger factor requires!* my apology, if needed.



Jerry

 

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Imagine what could have gone down had you been there.

230 Grains with a 13+1 against morons modifier.

Stay safe.

 

[Jerry Morris]

After studying this thread, it occurs that my tendencies toward denseness have been displayed. I offer my complete apology and an explanation.

It never occurred to me there was a simple answer, staring me right in the eyes. Correct me, if I am wrong. You took offense at my simple minded solution to this very complex issue. And in fact, there is nothing wrong with breaking your word and carrying a weapon against the rules of the workplace?

Why did you zero in on my stating there was a possible criminal penalty? This helped to confuse me, you devil, you.

That this violates my very conception of "The High Road" aided you. I will remember you.

This discussion is now over.

Jerry

 

[joab]

I have a problem with rule breakers. Rule Breakers accept the rules and then break them. This is not THR. It is dishonorable, it is the sign of a Liar (which I also looked for in my job interviews and reviews). It shows a willingness to not follow ones words of promise. If this is your way of Life, the discussion is better ended now.

Thank you for clarifying my,er I mean, your point

 

[1911Tuner]

I have a problem with rule breakers.

So did King George...so he sent his garrisons to sieze all arms, powder, and shot from the locals because they were havin' a problem with his rules.

Rule Breakers accept the rules and then break them.

So did the founding fathers and a few others...so some of'em met the British garrison at Lexington Green, firing the shot heard 'round the world and the nation that we live in was so conceived.

Of course...they could have just blindly obeyed the rules...paid the taxes...given up their rifles...and 1600 would be tea time around here instead of Miller Time.

Scofflaws! *sniff*

 

[Jerry Morris]

So did King George...so he sent his garrisons to sieze all arms, powder, and shot from the locals because they were havin' a problem with his rules.

King George lost, point moot.

So did the founding fathers and a few others...so some of'em met the British garrison at Lexington Green, firing the shot heard 'round the world and the nation that we live in was so conceived.

And this applies to todays employment situation in what manner? You do not believe Honor is consistent with job seeking and holding?

When it comes time for me to do as my Forefathers did, this will be a consideration. Do not insult the Cause with equating it to common treacheries and lies about mere job conditions, from either side. If the job grates you, be man enough to find another!

Jerry

 

[1911Tuner]

Oh, I believe in honor. I'm a former Marine. Honor is important to me like you can't imagine.

But...

I guess if one or two of those kids at Va. Tech had been rule breakers, Cho wouldn't have been able to kill 32 of'em like shootin' fish in a barrel.

See...2A says that we the people...have the right to keep and bear arms. It doesn't mention anything about "unless company policy forbids it."

Is your workplace safe? Any armed guards on the premesis who are willing to do battle with a crazed individual who is armed to the teeth...has already shot a few folks...and is actively lookin' for a few more to shoot? Yes? No?

Sorry, Jerry. This notion of blindly obeying rules is a totalitarian ideal. We must obey because "they" say so. It's led us this far into the nannystate mindset...and it'll take us further down that road. That has nearly destroyed the "rugged individualism" that this country was built on.

Can't buy into that, m'fren. When "policy" interferes with our God-given right to self-preservation...maybe the rules need to be broken. When a company literally tells me that it can't protect me, and refuses to allow me the means to protect myself...all (gun)agreements are null and void.

 

[kbarrett]

You could just ask ...

We had a fired employee show up once, and threaten to kill everyone involved in his firing ... basically a nut with anger management issues who kept getting hauled off from work by the cops for not making support payments.

Most of us believed he would follow through on his threats. I simply asked the CEO if I could keep a cased firearm under my desk the next day ... he said yes, and that he would probably do so as well.

The next day this idiot shows up in the lobby and starts waving a pistol around. Another employee snuck off and alerted everyone on the floor. The police were called ... I retrieved my Galil from its case, and met another employee who had also asked permission to bring his glock.

We heard him yelling at the receptionist, ordering her to ring the CEO ... which meant his back was to the door we were going to use. We confronted him, and ordered him to "Don't Move!". Then the CEO showed up at another door, and pointed his firearm at him, and issued the same order. Then a cop appeared in the opening elevator, pointing a shotgun at him and ordering him to drop the pistol ( response time of under 2 minutes ... I was impressed ).

At that point, he just kinda overloaded ... dropped the pistol, while saying "Oh **** me ..." and just closed his eyes.

We, not being visible from the elevator, just retreated and set our weapons down.

Another load of cops arrived via the other elevator, took the idjit into custody, and spent the rest of the afternoon lightly grilling us ...

The only arrestee that day was Mr. Anger Management ... who now wishes he only had divorce problems to deal with ....

 

[HammerBite]

As long as you are aware of the repercussions of being caught, or having to use "it".

I am aware that one of the repercussions of having to use "it" is staying alive. I can deal with that.

Gee, everyone at THR seems to get bent out of shape when someone calls the cops when they spot someone carrying. Now it's lucky that they did?

There is a difference between carrying and brandishing/threatening.

 

[1911Tuner]

Most of us believed he would follow through on his threats. I simply asked the CEO if I could keep a cased firearm under my desk the next day ... he said yes, and that he would probably do so as well.

And if he hadn't given permission...you might have obeyed his rule and you may not be alive to post this. The 32 dead kids at Va. Tech obeyed the rules, like good kids. I'm sure that was great comfort to their families...

 

[kbarrett]

If he hadn't given his permission, I had planned to take a week off, and suggest to my co-workers that they burn some PTO and do the same.

His building ... he gets to make the rules. I can either follow them, or just choose not to be there.

 

[1911Tuner]

If he hadn't given his permission, I had planned to take a week off, and suggest to my co-workers that they burn some PTO and do the same.

I hear ya, brother!

 

[Logan5]

why bad company rules get written

The kids at VA tech had a lot less leverage with their administration; it's not comparable to a small/medium business where you supposedly have relationships between highly valued employees and professional managers and at least some notion of a team atmosphere.

Employers get pushed into this kind of situation by insurance companies. It happens because of unreasonable people.

I'm reminded of a former middle manager who would come to work and say things like "I'm already pissed because it's hot and I can't take my jacket off because I've got my gun on. Now let me tell you where you've been F***ing up this week!" and then proceed to berate someone. That's one of the nightmare liability scenarios driving this trend, and last time I checked there's no jerk shortage.

Employers need to have something in place to allow them to terminate people like that for cause, and not have to pay them unemployment if at all possible. Generally small and medium shops won't have anything like in house counsel, so it's $195 an hour at best to redraft the employee handbook, and they only want to have to do it once.

No attorney wants to draft boilerplate. It's very expensive, but it's an intern/associate job, and the end result isn't going to lower your MOD or be of any utility in court anyway. Insurance consultants can still bring a lot of pressure when it comes to implementing foolishness, and from an inside perspective, even if you're General Counsel and they've got a GED, you may not win with your own upper management.

Since I'm salaried, and the staff attorney, I have the luxury of rewriting my employer's company handbook, in excruciating detail, to lay out exactly how all good things shooting related get a pass and the order in which bad things get you closer and closer to the door.

I get to do it in I think 2 years when it's time to rewrite the handbook, and if I were in private practice and doing it right now for someone else, I'd quote it at 80 hours x $200 an hour; $16,000. That's probably below market, and I can't imagine anyone ever paying for it. That's one reason why you see the employee codes of conduct you do. It's cheap to prohibit everything, and expensive to allow some things and make others a firing offense.

 

[Jerry Morris]

Oh, I believe in honor. I'm a former Marine. Honor is important to me like you can't imagine.

I really like this part. It is a shame the rest of it conflicts with Honor.

The VA kids were not employees. This is government/political and as far outside of the topic as comparing workplaces to the Cause of our Founding Fathers.

When you took the job and signed on the dotted line, you gave your Word. If your Word is no good, what does that say about the rest of the individual? If the rules changed after that, why wait for another change? Is a job that hard to find for some reason?

No workplace is safe. Mine is reasonably so. I have already indicated what I would do if it became less so.

They can be, what you call "totalitarians" for a reason. They were willing to pay me a lot, to do no where near what the pay is worth. If/when the risks do outweigh the rewards, I am not restrained from walking out. It was part of the two way deal. Could you walk away from risks in the Marines? Now there is a little stricter outfit! Maybe even totalitarian? They have a rule, or two, I hear. And you could get a splinter, or an eye put out?

That last little paragraph, I sincerely hope I am reading you will not take the job in the first place and more power to you, in my mind!. The other way, I afraid would put you into an undesirable category.

I have been to the dark place. Where I work, is not that place.

Jerry

 

[1911Tuner]

The VA kids were not employees. This is government/political and as far outside of the topic as comparing workplaces to the Cause of our Founding Fathers.

They're still dead...and the rules didn't help them one bit.

It is a shame the rest of it conflicts with Honor.

And which part would that be? The part that says that I refuse to hand anybody the right to make a possibly life-altering...or life-ending decision for me? Sorry. No honor violated there. I don't ask permission to exercise my right to self-preservation, nor for the means with which to effect that end.

I have been to the dark place. Where I work, is not that place.

Yeah. Me too. The students at Virginia Tech didn't go to school in the "Dark Place" either...but one day it suddenly got very dark for 32 of'em. Same goes for the students at Columbine, and the Long Island Subway...and countless others who went to work or to school or to church or to the park and never made it home. There are people somewhere...right this minute...who have murder and mayhem on their minds. They don't take an ad in the paper notifying the public of their intent, and the rules won't stop them.

Or...do you believe that it would? Do you believe that a man who has made the decision to walk into a building and kill as many people as he can will stop when he sees the sign forbidding guns and say: "Wow! Guess I'd better not do this. I could get in real trouble."

Next time you go to work...look around. It may be your turn.

 

[1911Tuner]

I'm reminded of a former middle manager who would come to work and say things like "I'm already pissed because it's hot and I can't take my jacket off because I've got my gun on.

And that right...there...is the guy that causes me to break the rules and carry the gun. It may indeed be my day to die at his hands...but he'll have to prove it to me.

 

[1911Tuner]

Back! Had to go tend to the dogs and clean up a couple pistols that I shot cruddy early this mornin'...

Don't get me wrong Jerry. I'm plumb tickled that you're a such a stickler for followin' the rules. I wish everybody was like that. I truly do. Of course, there'd be a couple million cops out of work...not to mention all those attorneys for the prosecution and defense. Why...it wouldn't take more than one or two judges per county to handle anything else that required a judge to preside over. Jails and prisons could be turned into animal shelters or apartment complexes for the poor and homeless. The savings to the taxpayers would be incalculable.

The world would be a virtual Shangri-La where the lion would lie down with the lamb, and Morlock and Eloi could frolic together in the sunshine...if everybody would just follow all the rules. I can't wait! I'd probably leave this gun in the safe, because frankly...sometimes carryin' it gets to be a drag.

 

[Jerry Morris]

And which part would that be? The part that says that I refuse to hand anybody the right to make a possibly life-altering...or life-ending decision for me? Sorry. No honor violated there. I don't ask permission to exercise my right to self-preservation, nor for the means with which to effect that end.

And I find this, respectable, commendable even. If you do not sacrifice your Honor in the doing of it.

I am reading between the lines here, you may correct me, if I am wrong. If more people did as you, the employers may get the word and make some changes. When they start hearing, No, I will not work in your "Restricted Shooting Gallery", at least not unarmed. This on top of the odious mandatory drug testing would make finding decent employees much harder. And no I do not use drugs, for anyone else out there reading. At least not any non-prescribed drugs.

This same thing could be done for the VA type schools. Along with lobbying the government to prohibit the restriction. Tell your kids and other family to boycott those schools Tell them, we don't need your "Restricted Shooting Gallery". Pick one with better practices. And remember the ones who balk in the future.

You have your Ways & Means and I have mine. I have no problem with those who use Honorable W&Ms to fight the situation. I will even do more than vote with my feet and I am doing it now. But, I will not corrupt my Honor to do so. If, I promise you, the promise will be kept. If, I owe you, you will be paid. If you insult me with an offer I find repugnant, I will refuse. I will not lie, or fail to disclose, which is just another form of lie.

And, I always look around me, not just going to work. It is called situational awareness. A firearm is decent, but the weapon is between my ears. You would be surprised at the number of "innocent things" that lay about at my workplace.

And I agree with you, My Government Model does gets heavy after about 8 to 10 hours. And my Kimber Ultra Carry, while reliable, does not fill me with the same sense of "security". The barrel is too short and velocities not very much up there. But, I can carry it all day. I am negotiating with Colt's to have a LT Commander made up my way. If they will not, it will have to be an outside shop.

Jerry