Handgun For Dangerous Game

[CraigC]

"Entry level" as in "entry level" for big game (that's what that means), not even dangerous game. Like the 308win. My point for that is to say, the baddest handgun, a 500s&w has ballistic specs in the ballpark of 308. 308 takes velocity. 308 takes energy, not by much. 500 takes momentum, not by much. What other objective criteria is there? Taylor Knockout factor? Then bowling balls are King...

I'm quoting and arguing with what is wrong. If you think the "biggest baddest handgun" is equivalent to a .308" then you clearly know nothing about how handguns work. Energy is a useless number, good only for marketing velocity. TKO is actually useful but only for comparing big bores to each other. You are seriously misinformed.

You might want to hit the decaf button there, chief.

Uninformed people making sweeping, absolute statements on subjects they obviously know nothing about doesn't rile me up but they do garner attention.

I didn't learn what I know from watching YouTube videos, telling off on yourself? Did you miss the water buffalo picture I posted above? That's not a random internet pic. Have you ever tested the 10mm against big bore revolvers? Obviously not. As I said, the best 10mm loads will penetrate HALF that of the best revolver loads. This is from actual testing, not thinking about it.

As I said, I don't care who thinks the 10mm is a bear cartridge, it ain't. Also not from postulating or wishful thinking. From nearly 40yrs of hunting with handguns.

Did you miss the .454 video too? Worthy of note here, it doesn't really matter how fast you can shoot your 10mm when you're not using enough cartridge to begin with. The comical part of this is that I probably own more 10mm's than you do.

Sorry but magazine capacity does not make up for a lack of terminal effect. I still can't figure out how all these neophytes convince themselves that the 10mm is so magical. As if all the laws of physics and terminal ballistics do not apply to it. Wrong. Bullet weight, construction, meplat diameter, it all matters and it all applies. Then 10mm can never make up for lack of mass or diameter, its meplat being considerably smaller than even the .41Mag.

Razor Dobbs is a stunt hunter, nothing more.

I also don't care what guides and Alaskan residents carry. Lots of people, yourself included, make that compromise without having ever fired a shot in anger. I care about what actually works for killing bears.

Black bears are not brown bears. They are routinely and easily taken with deer guns. Something the 10mm is actually good at.

Here's another water buffalo for the non-believers. For five years about a dozen of us gather annually in Texas to test handgun bullets on 1500-2500lb bovines but what do we know.



Dozens of animals and hundreds of bullets recovered but hey, you know better.

 

[CraigC]

There you go, @CraigC. You might as well quit and go home, now that we have a real expert here.

Yep, the 10mm Kool Aid drinkers have spoken, in all of their theoretical wisdom.

 

[Iwsbull]

Wow, if you don’t like big bore revolvers fine just say so, well I guess you did. You seem to like exaggerating the recoil and weight of them greatly.If you are worried about the hammer spur being implanted in your forehead or the 3 pounds being way to heavy to tote for normal men. For Craig and many others, myself included I would prefer to carry a big bore loaded with heavy hard cast solids for said encounter. Will a 10mm work, we have seen that even a 22 will suffice in the right situation, doesn’t mean that I am going to use one for bear defense if I have options. As I stated before use whatever you want to save your life and I will do the same. The 10 mm is a good round but not my preference if there is something that might be hunting me.

 

[Jackiesman]

The "I think" Comments are running wild. Carry what you're confident that it will do the job you're doing, and get proficient with it. End of story.

 

[Barbaroja]

Be careful with all that couch sitting Craig! This is a fun thread.

 

[Mr. Mosin]

I think I’ll trust the only two real experts here, and they’re both advocating bore bore wheelguns… both confirming what I already knew… that the 10mm is only equivalent to a high end .357 Magnum- from a 4” barrel. Not a 6” or 8” barrel.

 

[Buzznrose]

Since we are just talking around the campfire, how many believe a 12 gage shotgun loaded with buck shot will send them running ?

Send them running at the sound of the slide? LOL!

A good hit with 00 Buck and they aren't running anywhere...

 

[Buzznrose]

I think I’ll trust the only two real experts here, and they’re both advocating bore bore wheelguns… both confirming what I already knew… that the 10mm is only equivalent to a high end .357 Magnum- from a 4” barrel. Not a 6” or 8” barrel.

Plenty of stuff stopped, dropped, and ended with a .357 mag...and even in a 10MM 1911, you'll get an extra couple rounds.

 

[WrongHanded]

The arguments in favor of magnum revolver cartridges are solid. Large case capacity for caliber for mean more space for powder and a heavier-for-caliber bullet. Revolvers also allow for a larger flat meplat as a percentage of diameter, because feeding from a magazine is not an issue. Which results in a heavier bullet with a wider meplat and higher sectional density, usually going faster than an auto loading cartridge.

Shot for shot of a similar caliber, the Magnum revolver cartridges win. Period.

The only thing a semi-auto does appreciably better is volume of fire. Magazine capacity, reload speed (probably not relevant in the case of dangerous game), and ability to absorb recoil.

Anyone who's shot a medium frame .357 Magnum (GP100 or 686) with 180gr bullets at around 1200fps, and also shot a 10mm (e.g. G20) with a similar load, will usually experience that the 10mm has less felt recoil. This is due to the cycling of the slide, and can result in faster shooting at a similar level of accuracy. And yet, in terms of meplat size and despite the smaller caliber, the .357 can have a larger meplat, and also has higher sectional density. Which still appears to translate into a larger wound diameter. Though possible not an increase in penetration because more energy is being converted into the larger diameter wound track.

My conclusion: 10mm and other similarly powerful auto cartridges are a good compromise in two situations.

• Where the threat of two-legged predators is an additional factor to the primary concern of large four-legged dangers.
• Where the shooter is not practiced enough or capable enough to control a magnum revolver in recoil and make accurate shots at speed.

How to choose?

• Self Evaluation: Can you shoot this gun with your chosen load as well as you think you'd need to if you had to use it?
• Situational Evaluation: What threats are you likely to face, and is this gun appropriate?
• Load vs Threat Evaluation: Does this load have the potential to perform to a satisfactory level if you don't get the perfect shot you'd be aiming for?

These days I'll take either a G20 with BB 190gr copper solids at around 1100-1150fps, or a Ruger in .44 Mag with 300gr WFN hardcast at around 1200fps. Which one depends on the situation.

 

[Richard Jay King]

I just love threads like this one! LOL! Here is what I posted on a simlar thread on another forum:

There is no "magic" to any bullet or caliber....To effectively kill an animal it first has to have enough penetration to get to vital organs from what ever shot angle is taken..then it has to be able to disrupt by the transfer of its kinetic energy to those organs. The more energy transferred the more damage done.. Both momentum AND energy are important...My .243 kills with a rapid deceleration of the bullet and the subsiquent expansion/disintegration of the bullet resulting in a very rapid energy transfer..but it cannot be counted on to penetrate and continue to deliver that same energy release. My 255 grain .45 cast bullet with large flat meplat will penetrate from almost any angle but delivers its energy over a longer path, though the rate of energy transfer is much less than the .243...most .30 cal and above rifles have the ability to penetrate AND release high amounts of energy via jacketed expanding bullets....Most handguns that will fit in a holster do not...They have to depend on penetration of a fat bullet with a big meplat...I have killed deer with .357 caliber 158 grain JHP at 1950 fps and a .45 caliber 255 grain hard cast Keith style bullet at 1200 fps...Some run a little ways..some drop on the spot...but both bullets were able to GET into the vital organs...and hade ENOUGH energy to create disruption.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

I'm quoting and arguing with what is wrong. If you think the "biggest baddest handgun" is equivalent to a .308" then you clearly know nothing about how handguns work. Energy is a useless number, good only for marketing velocity. TKO is actually useful but only for comparing big bores to each other. You are seriously misinformed.



Uninformed people making sweeping, absolute statements on subjects they obviously know nothing about doesn't rile me up but they do garner attention.

I didn't learn what I know from watching YouTube videos, telling off on yourself? Did you miss the water buffalo picture I posted above? That's not a random internet pic. Have you ever tested the 10mm against big bore revolvers? Obviously not. As I said, the best 10mm loads will penetrate HALF that of the best revolver loads. This is from actual testing, not thinking about it.

As I said, I don't care who thinks the 10mm is a bear cartridge, it ain't. Also not from postulating or wishful thinking. From nearly 40yrs of hunting with handguns.

Did you miss the .454 video too? Worthy of note here, it doesn't really matter how fast you can shoot your 10mm when you're not using enough cartridge to begin with. The comical part of this is that I probably own more 10mm's than you do.

Sorry but magazine capacity does not make up for a lack of terminal effect. I still can't figure out how all these neophytes convince themselves that the 10mm is so magical. As if all the laws of physics and terminal ballistics do not apply to it. Wrong. Bullet weight, construction, meplat diameter, it all matters and it all applies. Then 10mm can never make up for lack of mass or diameter, its meplat being considerably smaller than even the .41Mag.

Razor Dobbs is a stunt hunter, nothing more.

I also don't care what guides and Alaskan residents carry. Lots of people, yourself included, make that compromise without having ever fired a shot in anger. I care about what actually works for killing bears.

Black bears are not brown bears. They are routinely and easily taken with deer guns. Something the 10mm is actually good at.

Here's another water buffalo for the non-believers. For five years about a dozen of us gather annually in Texas to test handgun bullets on 1500-2500lb bovines but what do we know.

View attachment 1048614

Dozens of animals and hundreds of bullets recovered but hey, you know better.

View attachment 1048615

I did not say they were equivalent. I said they are in the same ballpark. Big bore handguns and bottle neck rifles will always be apples and oranges, but apples and oranges are still at the same fruit stand. It'll still be handgun vs rifle.

And being in the wilderness up North and defense against dangerous game has other factors to consider than ranch hunting big game in Texas.

I get that you like big bore revolvers. I do too. I have some, carry some, use some. I also have big bore rifles. But I also have other options. Just a different tools for different jobs. Heck, my dream revolver is a 480 Ruger if one ever shows up.

But that doesn't mean it's the only option.

I don't know you, but it appears that you look at everything through the lens of big bore revolvers.

If big bore revolvers are they only right answer for you, then everyone else is wrong.

When people post their perspective, and you claim that they are posting absolutes. It's easy to disprove absolutes in a complex non-absolute world.

If I say I like chocolate ice cream, and you claim that I said chocolate ice cream is the best, it's a misrepresentation.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all about the effectiveness of big bores on big game.

I'm saying there are other factors to consider and they aren't the be-all-end-all for everyone for everything.

I don't mind people disagreeing with me, proving me wrong, or educating me... I don't like being misrepresented and having what I've said taken out of context in an attempt to prove me wrong.

 

[CDW4ME]

Shot for shot of a similar caliber, the Magnum revolver cartridges win. Period.

The only thing a semi-auto does appreciably better is volume of fire. Magazine capacity, reload speed (probably not relevant in the case of dangerous game), and ability to absorb recoil.

Anyone who's shot a medium frame .357 Magnum (GP100 or 686) with 180gr bullets at around 1200fps, and also shot a 10mm (e.g. G20) with a similar load, will usually experience that the 10mm has less felt recoil. This is due to the cycling of the slide, and can result in faster shooting at a similar level of accuracy.

My conclusion: 10mm and other similarly powerful auto cartridges are a good compromise in two situations.

• Where the threat of two-legged predators is an additional factor to the primary concern of large four-legged dangers.
• Where the shooter is not practiced enough or capable enough to control a magnum revolver in recoil and make accurate shots at speed.

How to choose?

• Self Evaluation: Can you shoot this gun with your chosen load as well as you think you'd need to if you had to use it?
• Situational Evaluation: What threats are you likely to face, and is this gun appropriate?
• Load vs Threat Evaluation: Does this load have the potential to perform to a satisfactory level if you don't get the perfect shot you'd be aiming for?

These days I'll take either a G20 with BB 190gr copper solids at around 1100-1150fps, or a Ruger in .44 Mag with 300gr WFN hardcast at around 1200fps. Which one depends on the situation.

Good post.

In the past I had several 44 Mag revolvers, the blast from them rattled my molars. I killed a wild pig with a Dan Wesson 44 mag 30 years ago.
I've still got a 6'' 357 Mag S&W 686 revolver; I'd be much quicker at follow up shots with a Glock 20 than that 357 mag revolver.

Hunting vs self defense?
For hunting follow up shots are less of a concern than SD - I'm saying this as someone who has killed 30+ deer (Not dangerous, but I've hunted animals)
Broadside stationary animal getting shot versus an animal charging at nearly 30 MPH aint the same. (Majority of the deer I shot were inside 20 yards, bow kills)
I (note I) would rather have over double the chances with a less powerful bullet (10mm) to hit a charging (attacking) animal than just 6 with whatever revolver.

 

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

I don't hunt with it but a G20SF is my woods walking gun---usually a 9 shot Mossberg 590 with slugs is close by too.

 

[WrongHanded]

Hunting vs self defense?
For hunting follow up shots are less of a concern than SD - I'm saying this as someone who has killed 30+ deer (Not dangerous, but I've hunted animals)
Broadside stationary animal getting shot versus an animal charging at nearly 30 MPH aint the same. (Majority of the deer I shot were inside 20 yards, bow kills)
I (note I) would rather have over double the chances with a less powerful bullet (10mm) to hit a charging (attacking) animal than just 6 with whatever revolver.

Hunting vs Defense, indeed. Some (as seen in the video CraigC posted of MaxP) are capable of shooting powerful revolvers accurately and at speed, which means such a handgun can be used defensively with great effect. For those not willing or able to put the time into getting proficient with big bore revolvers, and then the time into maintaining that level of precision, such levels of shooting are a fantasy.

I will no longer recommend anything over a .357 Mag or a 10mm for people not willing to put the time in with a big bore Magnum. I'll mention big bores, but with some serious warnings and stress the importance of practice, and the higher cost of doing so.

 

[trackskippy]

Hunting vs Defense, indeed. Some (as seen in the video CraigC posted of MaxP) are capable of shooting powerful revolvers accurately and at speed, which means such a handgun can be used defensively with great effect. For those not willing or able to put the time into getting proficient with big bore revolvers, and then the time into maintaining that level of precision, such levels of shooting are a fantasy.

I will no longer recommend anything over a .357 Mag or a 10mm for people not willing to put the time in with a big bore Magnum. I'll mention big bores, but with some serious warnings and stress the importance of practice, and the higher cost of doing so.

Stop! Youre talking sense!

 

[CraigC]

I did not say they were equivalent. I said they are in the same ballpark. Big bore handguns and bottle neck rifles will always be apples and oranges, but apples and oranges are still at the same fruit stand. It'll still be handgun vs rifle.

Not even the same sport. The .308 is a deer cartridge that is capable of elk and moose. No one would even consider putting it against the Big Six. It ain't legal anyway. Whereas the lowly .44Mag has been used to take all of the big six. With a bronze/copper solid (Punch is still my favorite) I would happily choose a good .44Mag in a revolver over a .308 rifle for anything up to and including Cape buffalo. I'd rather have a .500 but it would do an admirable job on side brain shots on elephant.

I don't know you, but it appears that you look at everything through the lens of big bore revolvers.

I can safely say that this has nothing to do with personal preference or bias. It has everything to do with terminal ballistics. The 10mm just ain't got it. And for the record, I've shot Glocks since 1992, though my present preference is XD's. I own and shoot a little bit of everything so let's skip the "you're an old stick in the mud" argument. It doesn't fit.

 

[CraigC]

I will no longer recommend anything over a .357 Mag or a 10mm for people not willing to put the time in with a big bore Magnum. I'll mention big bores, but with some serious warnings and stress the importance of practice, and the higher cost of doing so.

All true but we don't see folks saying they choose a 10mm because they're unable or unwilling to put in the time with a big bore revolver. Rather than being realistic about their compromise, they try to convince themselves and others that it's just as good. That's where I have to speak up.

 

[Ru4real]

Handgun hunting (e.g. 357 Mag & 10mm & 44 Mag & 480 Ruger…) is more similar to archery hunting than it is to rifle hunting (e.g. 223 Rem & 270 Win & 338 Mag…).

Once that concept sinks in, proper handgun types, calibers and bullet choices can be made.

For both archery and handgun hunting, the best terminal performance is both a hole into the animal and a hole out of the animal. And for archery and handguns, the bigger the holes, the better!

In archery, faster arrow speed makes longer shots easier. Same as handguns (e.g. 45 Colt vs 460 S&W at 200y)
In archery, “energy transfer” and “DRT” is not a thing. Same as handguns. (Exceptions are head/spine shots)

For Deer, Pigs, etc:
Archery, light 300 grain arrows with mechanical broad heads are fine. Usually.
Handguns, narrow meplat cast or round nose or expanding type bullets are fine. Usually.

For Elk, Bison, Moose, Bears, etc:
Archery, heavy 500 grain arrows with fixed broadheads are best. Mechanical broadheads are a handicap.
Handguns, heavy cast wide meplat bullets are best. Expanding bullets are a handicap.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

Not even the same sport. The .308 is a deer cartridge that is capable of elk and moose. No one would even consider putting it against the Big Six. It ain't legal anyway. Whereas the lowly .44Mag has been used to take all of the big six. With a bronze/copper solid (Punch is still my favorite) I would happily choose a good .44Mag in a revolver over a .308 rifle for anything up to and including Cape buffalo. I'd rather have a .500 but it would do an admirable job on side brain shots on elephant..

I guess we'll forget that WDM "Karamojo" Bell existed...

 

[Mr. Mosin]

Ironically, unless I move, the most I’d ever reasonably need is a hardcast .357 Magnum or .45 Colt

 

[CraigC]

I guess we'll forget that WDM "Karamojo" Bell existed...

No, we won't forget but we'll also endeavor to keep it in perspective. He used very long, very heavy, very tough bullets to drill holes in elephants' brains. He was also a market hunter, he shot elephants for a living. Nothing he did would justify a recommendation of using something similar for similar endeavors and like I said, it wouldn't be legal anyway.

Your posts illustrate a general misunderstanding of how this all works.

 

[BillTell]

Ammoland has also done a full-depth analysis of every publicly reported bear shooting finding that every caliber worked.

None of the public killed by the bears reported it...

 

[JeeperCreeper]

No, we won't forget but we'll also endeavor to keep it in perspective. He used very long, very heavy, very tough bullets to drill holes in elephants' brains. He was also a market hunter, he shot elephants for a living. Nothing he did would justify a recommendation of using something similar for similar endeavors and like I said, it wouldn't be legal anyway.

Your posts illustrate a general misunderstanding of how this all works.

No, my posts illustrate that I have additional perspectives and can look beyond "NO!! BIG BORE REVOLVERS ONLY!!".

Your posts are cherry-picking and misrepresenting.

But that's all good, I think you're teaching me, let's see if I get this straight:

-Standard rifle cartridges can't kill anything, and if they did it doesn't count. Should have used a 500.

-44mag is an elephant round now

-10mm will bounce off of any animal, and when it's been used successfully, it doesn't count.

Am I learning now?

 

[.455_Hunter]

Yea, I'm in FL, lived in KY 54 years prior.

Spent anytime backpacking in Wyoming or Montana? How about salmon fishing in Costal Alaska?

I think a psychotic / drugged armed human as dangerous as a Grizzly, kill you just as easily.

And your bases for this judgment is based on your extensive experience with hostile predatory four-legged animal encounters?

Have you ever "monitored" a bear or mountain lion over the sights of your drawn sidearm? Have you or family member ever had to discharge a weapon to stop a bear or mountain lion attack?

How often does a Grizzly kill multiple people in one event? A "bad" armed human is the most dangerous thing on the planet.

In a populated urban area, probably so, but not so much on a Kenai fishing trail, a remote Teton campsite, or even when I am walking my dog in our mountain neighborhood.

You choose a 22/25 or 32/380 rather than at least 9mm to defend against a armed human(s)? I don't.

Not really the point of the thread, but I know its your favorite topic. I carry whatever weapon fits my needs for day, with special consideration for maintaining discretion. Unlike many carriers, my carry is frequently in NPE that could have extreme fallout for myself or my family if discovered. Though you may disagree, I put capacity/caliber/ammo choice a distant third behind "Have a gun" and "Know how to shoot it effectively" when dealing with two-legged threats.

 

[jag1954]

I carry a .500 S&W in "dangerous game" country and still feel inadequately armed.

Yep, and at 5'8" and 130 lbs. soaking wet, sometimes I feel the same way, yet this does boost my confidence somewhat.