Handgun For Dangerous Game

[The Glockodile]

For me, Wolff extra power springs and a Storm lake barrels.

My main driving fear in the context of my Glocks was loose chambers - my fancy calibers use Bar - Stos.

 

[Buzznrose]

Lots of thoughts and just a bit of emotions in these “bear/dangerous game handgun threads.

Mine:

1. You gotta carry the gun and have it on you when you need it, which is the main advantage of a handgun

2. You have to be able to hit the target in a kill/stop area in their body with a bullet that will penetrate deep enough to do the required damage

3. You need as many rounds as you need…and you don’t know how many that is until it’s over.

4. For hard to kill critters, solid bullets are better then hollow points because penetration matters.

Regardless what is posted on this board, the link below depicts verified events with dangerous game and defenders using handguns.

Bottom Line: according to the June 2021 article, handguns were 97% effective in 104 cases thwarting wild animal attacks:

https://www.ammoland.com/2021/06/handgun-or-pistol-against-bear-attacks-104-cases-97-effective/

.500 > .44 > 10MM > .40 > 9MM, but ALL worked and were effective when needed.

 

[DR505]

I love bear threads...

I live in Idaho, have seen moose on my property, and have heard some grizzlies may be in the area not too far away. I prefer a .44 mag or .45 Colt with heavy solids, carried in a chest holster. I may pick up a nice .454...always wanted one.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[.38 Special]

Lots of thoughts and just a bit of emotions in these “bear/dangerous game handgun threads.

Bottom Line: according to the June 2021 article, handguns were 97% effective in 104 cases thwarting wild animal attacks:

https://www.ammoland.com/2021/06/handgun-or-pistol-against-bear-attacks-104-cases-97-effective/

.500 > .44 > 10MM > .40 > 9MM, but ALL worked and were effective when needed.

After reading the article, I note that even the .22 rimfire is included in that number. So I'm not quite sure I trust the article.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

For what it's worth, I personally know folks that have "heart shot" a bear with a .375 H&H and it still went over 500 yards before laying down. I put it in quotes as I didn't do an autopsy.

So having said that, even with a magnum rifle round, a bear can still maul you to death in that amount of time if it's so inclined.

I'm also not banking on blowing out a shoulder on a running hear with any handgun. The baddest handgun can only keep up with entry level rifle, generally.

So realistically, if a demon bear is hades bent on ripping you from limb to limb... Head/CNS shots are all you get... If you get lucky to get a shot.

So, from my estimation, when it comes to handguns in defense of dangerous game... Like bears or beers... There's 3 basic outcomes:

-you headshot the animal
-you shoot and scare it away
-you get eaten

Obviously that's oversimplified. But if I can control a medium power pistol round (like 45 Super or 10mm) more than a super duper Magnum (454-500, etc), I'm going for it because my best chance is head shot or scare... Which they all can do.

Insert cliche shot placement remark

Insert cliche joke about slow running friend

Insert cliche joke about filed front site for rectal insertion

Insert cliche about opinion vs fact vs feeling vs science vs anecdote

 

[PapaG]

My arthritic hands and wrists will no longer allow me to shoot the fire breathing monsters like 500, 460, and 454. At least not enough to be proficient. I guess ill have to stick with my 29-2 6" and my 255 grain swc bullets and max 2400. Sparingly, now.

 

[Anchorite]

I love bear threads...

I live in Idaho, have seen moose on my property, and have heard some grizzlies may be in the area not too far away. I prefer a .44 mag or .45 Colt with heavy solids, carried in a chest holster. I may pick up a nice .454...always wanted one.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Ever considered the 480? It’s bigger than the 45/454 and recoil is no where near as severe. I mean a 45 caliber hole is a 45 caliber hole wether it’s a 45 Colt or a 454 Casull.

 

[Buzznrose]

After reading the article, I note that even the .22 rimfire is included in that number. So I'm not quite sure I trust the article.

I’m guessing the smiley face means you are not 100% serious, but I’ll bite.

I’m pretty sure the .22 accounts are included because it was a documented case and the author didn’t want to “cherry pick”.

Look, I’m not saying what anyone should do…but if all someone owns is a 9MM and they can shoot it well and secure good flat nose solid ammo, it’s better than nothing.

 

[ThomasT]

The OP lives in Mississippi and so far as I know the biggest beast he will run across are black bears and hogs. The 10mm or a good 357 mag should work fine for his area. A 44 mag SBH would be even better but way more expensive to feed. The OP has told me in emails he can't shoot a Glock or other autos IIRC. The OP really likes revolvers. If I had to make the choice I would use my 6" GP-100 or 44 mag Super Black Hawk. I already have them there isn't much a well loaded 44 mag won't kill. Those are my thoughts. Move to another area and the selection might change.

My bud has a Glock 20 in 10mm I have shot a few times. Its nice but I wasn't over whelmed by the power. I am sure it hits somewhat harder than a 357 but doesn't come close to a 41 or 44 mag in power. He doesn't shoot it much because he can't find ammo anywhere around him. He would buy it at about any price because he has less than half a box left. And money is not an issue with him.

 

[Mr. Mosin]

Interesting ... but self-defeating at day's end for the Big-Bore Magnum Revolver (BBMR) fans.

A full-loaded (15+1) G20 will weigh the less that the typical BBRM. And by typical, I'm talking about the models usually advertised or recommended for carry in "bear country," especially Alaska.

These tend to be heavy, thick-barreled 5- or 6-shot 44s, 454s, 500s, etc., all of them low capacity boat-anchors.

Worse, a lot of them sport sub-4" barrels which immediately imparts two huge negatives: (1) horrific first-shot recoil and muzzle blast, which makes a quick and accurate follow-up shot under stress unlikely; and (2) most of the factory ammo produced for BBMRs is vetted with 6" or 8" factory "test barrels" (occasionally 5") in order to advertise impressive velocity and energy numbers on the box-flap (i.e., fps/fpe).

Yet the shorter barrels of the BBMRs actually being carried (or advertised for carry) into AK bear country yield reduced velocities behind the magnum's Big Fat Heavy bullet, and thus compromise the key to its stopping power, which is supposed to be: heavy and fast, ... not heavy and "sorta slow."

Between a hard-kicking 2" or 3" barreled 454 wheelie offering 5-/6-rounds on tap versus a 10mm G20 or long-slide G40, packing 15+1 200grn or 220grn coated Hard Cast slugs (@ 1250+fps and 1200+fps, respectively), it's a no-brainer ... for me at least.

Not to mention, if you ask local AK residents what they holster-up with when heading into the boonies where the big bad bruins roam, overwhelming they'll say it's a 10mm semi-auto of some flavor, and if they do own a BBMR, it's just a range toy or a happily-retired safe queen.

Only two I know both pack 4” barreled 629’s.

 

[Mr. Mosin]

The OP lives in Mississippi and so far as I know the biggest beast he will run across are black bears and hogs. The 10mm or a good 357 mag should work fine for his area. A 44 mag SBH would be even better but way more expensive to feed. The OP has told me in emails he can't shoot a Glock or other autos IIRC. The OP really likes revolvers. If I had to make the choice I would use my 6" GP-100 or 44 mag Super Black Hawk. I already have them there isn't much a well loaded 44 mag won't kill. Those are my thoughts. Move to another area and the selection might change.

My bud has a Glock 20 in 10mm I have shot a few times. Its nice but I wasn't over whelmed by the power. I am sure it hits somewhat harder than a 357 but doesn't come close to a 41 or 44 mag in power. He doesn't shoot it much because he can't find ammo anywhere around him. He would buy it at about any price because he has less than half a box left. And money is not an issue with him.

That’s the ticket… everyone screeches “10 MM!!!”, but when the rubber meets the road, it can’t compare to a .41, .44, .45, .454, etc

 

[Jackiesman]

Alaska Salmon fishing I use a 454 casull in a custom chest carry that lets the butt protrude above my armpit waders. In elk country it's the 44 Mag Super Blackhawk topped with 300 grain Sierra soft nose, they're deadly. I leave my 10 mm for street work. To each his own guys.

 

[crestoncowboy]

He doesn't shoot it much because he can't find ammo anywhere around him.

I haven't bought a factory 10mm round in 15 years. And back then it was bvac, Georgia arms, silver tips, Hornady custom, Blazer, or American eagle. That was about it. Lol.

But ive seen more 10mm in the past 6 months than I have 9, 40, 22, and 45 combined. It's online everywhere and didn't suffer from the price triple that 9mm, 380, or 22 did. It didn't go down any but didn't double either. Even cabelas had it. 10mm, 5.7 and a single box of 44 mag. Lol

Is not what id call great ammo. But like I said back when I was buying 10mm, the only non target ammo was silver tips (or talons) or Hornady custom. Double tap was pretty new then. I'm not sure what all is out there now for decent stuff, but plinking ammo is available. I would think with the big revival of 10mm guns that SOMEBODY would be making some good ammo now. Can't say that I've seen anything about it in my nra mags though. Maybe hst or gold dot 2 or something.

 

[ThomasT]

But ive seen more 10mm in the past 6 months than I have 9, 40, 22, and 45 combined. It's online everywhere and didn't suffer from the price triple that 9mm, 380, or 22 did. It didn't go down any but didn't double either. Even cabelas had it. 10mm, 5.7 and a single box of 44 mag. Lol

When he bought his 10mm three or 4 years ago I suggested getting set up to reload for it. He already reloads and has for 40+ years so all he needed was dies and supplies. But like most people he thought the ammo gravy train would roll forever and like most he got caught short. So now he has a gun he is afraid to shoot.

 

[CraigC]

I'm also not banking on blowing out a shoulder on a running hear with any handgun.

If it'll break both shoulders of a 2000lb water buffalo, it'll break stuff going in and out of any bear that walks.

I'm also not banking on blowing out a shoulder on a running hear with any handgun. The baddest handgun can only keep up with entry level rifle, generally.

That's just not true. "Entry level rifles" (whatever that means) don't penetrate large, dangerous game to a depth measured in feet. If you're using energy as a guide, don't.

 

[.38 Special]

I’m guessing the smiley face means you are not 100% serious, but I’ll bite.

I’m pretty sure the .22 accounts are included because it was a documented case and the author didn’t want to “cherry pick”.

Look, I’m not saying what anyone should do…but if all someone owns is a 9MM and they can shoot it well and secure good flat nose solid ammo, it’s better than nothing.

Yeah, not really serious at all. I am a firm believer in the .577 Nitro. Everything else is poking and hoping, and I'm fine leaving folks to their own solutions.

 

[.38 Special]

If it'll break both shoulders of a 2000lb water buffalo, it'll break stuff going in and out of any bear that walks.

"Entry level rifles" (whatever that means) don't penetrate large, dangerous game to a depth measured in feet. If you're using energy as a guide, don't.

There is a whole generation of folks who simply can't believe what a big heavy flat point at moderate velocity is capable of.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

If it'll break both shoulders of a 2000lb water buffalo, it'll break stuff going in and out of any bear that walks.



That's just not true. "Entry level rifles" (whatever that means) don't penetrate large, dangerous game to a depth measured in feet. If you're using energy as a guide, don't.

I feel like you're highlighting the things you don't like, magnifying them, and ignoring the point of my post.

"Entry level" as in "entry level" for big game (that's what that means), not even dangerous game. Like the 308win. My point for that is to say, the baddest handgun, a 500s&w has ballistic specs in the ballpark of 308. 308 takes velocity. 308 takes energy, not by much. 500 takes momentum, not by much. What other objective criteria is there? Taylor Knockout factor? Then bowling balls are King...

But that's not my point. My point was on a charging bear determined to eat me.

Shoulder to shoulder is for hunting broadside. Quadrupeds generally, including bears, will have scapula that are positioned with the small profile forward. As an expert hunter, I know you know this. I'm saying it to say that I wouldn't trust taking out shoulders in a dangerous game charge situation. There's not a lot of real estate to hit. But it doesn't matter in my mind.

My entire post was to say that even the biggest baddest revolver or rifle, with a heart shot or shoulder shot won't always kill an angry-death-wish-bear fast enough to keep it from killing you before it dies.

My point was with a death-wish bear, my hope is for a CNS shot or it changes its mind. A brain shot is the best guarantee for a stoppage if I'm lucky to get one.

I'm not talking about hunting.

Yes, it's been done before. I'm saying I wouldn't trust it.

I need a gun I can hit with, that is "good enough" as opposed to the ultra-magnum-super-deluxe that is unwieldy and most people can't handle as well.

 

[1goodshot]

High capacity 10 mm

 

[drobs]

The OP lives in Mississippi and so far as I know the biggest beast he will run across are black bears and hogs. The 10mm or a good 357 mag should work fine for his area. A 44 mag SBH would be even better but way more expensive to feed. The OP has told me in emails he can't shoot a Glock or other autos IIRC. The OP really likes revolvers. If I had to make the choice I would use my 6" GP-100 or 44 mag Super Black Hawk. I already have them there isn't much a well loaded 44 mag won't kill. Those are my thoughts. Move to another area and the selection might change.

My bud has a Glock 20 in 10mm I have shot a few times. Its nice but I wasn't over whelmed by the power. I am sure it hits somewhat harder than a 357 but doesn't come close to a 41 or 44 mag in power. He doesn't shoot it much because he can't find ammo anywhere around him. He would buy it at about any price because he has less than half a box left. And money is not an issue with him.

Same guy different board, huh?

 

[Mr. Mosin]

Same guy different board, huh?

Yup

 

[JFrank]

Since we are just talking around the campfire, how many believe a 12 gage shotgun loaded with buck shot will send them running ?

 

[Hesa Hard1]

* * *
It's comical the reasons people use to justify the 10mm as the be-all, end-all of outdoorsman cartridges. You're entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. FACT, a loaded Glock 20 weighs 40oz. Same as a 4" S&W 629 Mountain Gun. A 4" Redhawk, which is much more capable, is about 5oz heavier. So even the "revolvers are boat anchors" argument doesn't withstand much scrutiny. Further, I don't even know what sub-3" guns you're even talking about, other than the Ruger Alaskan.

Trying reading my post again. Sub-4" wheelies. You might want to do some research.

S&W, Ruger, and Taurus (I believe) all offer, or once offered, short-barreled magnum revolvers. Heck, back in the late '80s or so, S&W even made a run of compact magnums for Lew Horton, e.g., 629s, 657s. These had either 2.5" or 3" tubes.

Further, velocity is overrated. Any velocity loss when using a heavy for caliber hardcast bullet is irrelevant. It's the bullet that is the critical factor, anything over 1000fps is gravy. It's a joke that 10mm true believers would even make this argument because the 10mm is not exactly a speed demon. The 10mm is a fine cartridge but what it lacks is capacity. It doesn't have the capacity for the heavy bullets needed for this job. What is considered "heavy" in the 10mm, is standard weight in a revolver cartridge. Hell, a .41Special Colt SAA could match the 10mm's best loads, 30yrs ago. A 220gr 10mm is NOT a bear load. I don't care what ski patrol carries them or how many Cape buffalo that idiot Razor Dobbs has poked with them. It ain't enough and there's no way to make it enough. Sorry, bear loads begin with 320gr .44's and 335gr .45's. Going heavier to 355's and 360's respectively is not a bad idea either. I want to break a shoulder going in and a hip going out. These bullets will penetrate DOUBLE that of the best 10mm loads. Since we're not getting many exits on water buffalo with optimal bullets, you can bet your ass I'm not going any lighter. Read a few stories about bear maulings from people that lived and tell me again you want to compromise with the 10mm.
I don't pull any punches on this subject because people's lives could potentially depend on the choice they make. If you're carrying a 10mm for big bears, you're doing it because it's easy. Not because it's better or even good enough.

You might want to hit the decaf button there, chief.

Denmark's Sirius Sledge Patrol is a military unit, not a "ski patrol." Which, again, makes their Gen4 G20s a Mil-issue sidearm.

And the Razor dude has killed more dangerous game up close with his 10mm DW Razorback 1911 than you'll ever see watching YouTube vids on your couch.

Let's also dispense with the idea that revolvers are painfully slow and 10mm autos are blazingly fast. It's nonsense.

LOL! ... Wrong.

Follow-up shots with a G20, even with the max "heavy & fast" loads (Underwood level), will still be quicker and more accurate than a Big Bore wheelgun, like the .454 Ruger AK "backpacker" model. And that's assuming you don't have to spend precious millaseconds after the first shot trying to get the hammer spur out of your forehead.

And let's also not pretend that low-capacity boat anchors as "bear defense" guns aren't passé. Statistically for that purpose, they've largely been retired and relegated to use as range toys and handloading platforms.

10mm G20 stops Grizz charge ...



All ya need to know:

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/10/al...k-10mm-on-elmendorf-richardson/#axzz6GWKT1vcM

More here:

 

[Hesa Hard1]

And you might want to research what the real pros, like hunting guides and bush pilots, are carrying when they go into "bear country."

Here's long-time black bear hunting guide, Todd Larsen, on having to dispatch a huge wounded black bear with his 10mm Kimber Eclipse, and why he swears by the 10mm AUTO.

 

[.38 Special]

There you go, @CraigC. You might as well quit and go home, now that we have a real expert here.