Handgun for protection from a grizzly?

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alaskan advice

when i first moved to alaska, i was given two differing opinions on the best handgun to carry for encounters with mr. brown:

1--a handgun with the front sight removed. this, so that it won't hurt when the bear shoves it up your ass.

2--any reasonably accurate .22 lr handgun. shoot your buddy in the knee and haul ass.

gunnie
 
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The same size can of pepper spray that Dog the Bounty Hunter carries, and a Smith 500, in that order.
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Is the 500 for the bear or for Beth?
 
I wonder how many people here have ever seen a Grizz much less a coastal Brown. I would not want a shot gun to carry on the rivers salmon fishing. Why? well with waders and all it would have to be on my back and that is not good. I carry a Ruger Alaskan .454 with Grizzly 360grn. ammo. It is in my simply rugged holster on my home made wader belt. I can have it out and have a few good shots off before you get a long gun into play. I have been very close to Browns 10-15 yrds and never had a problem. I had one get 6 yrds away as i stood in the river as it walked the bank. My pucker factor was as high as it could get but the bear just ambled past looking for some salmon. It paused and looked at me and i had my SRH pulled and up but it just kept going thank God! A coastal Brown make an interior Grizzly look small and they are just as mean but every bear out there is not a blood thirsty man killer. That being said i wont walk outdoor any where in AK with out my SRH.
 
I would use pepper spray before I used a gun at all. If I used a gun, it would be to shoot it into the air to scare the thing off. I work in Juneau during the summer months and one thing you DONT want is a wounded, pissed off bear. I read somewhere about a hunting guide taking two guys out armed with the S&W 500 revolvers and they shot a grizzly like 6 times and it still had to be taken by the guide who had the long gun.


I carry a 10mm witness elite match while hiking up there as a shotgun isnt very practical. You need to be very aware of all surroundings and you should be fine. Unless you happen across cubs or find a hungry one :)
 
ever heard of a giant can o bear spray??

It works. Trust me. There are no armchairs in my house.

Piece of advice number two: Make your bear gun your primary gun. This means dont carry a handgun. Carry a 375 HH rifle, or 45/70, 450 Marlin levergun. Beats a handgun to bits and peices.

For more info regarding "you dont need a bigger pistol" see here
http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/grizzly/bear spray.pdf
 
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For the record, the .454 Casull is roughly twice as powerful as a .44 Magnum. Because of this, it's probably the best round for the job. And a .454 can also fire .45 LC.
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It is not as twice as powerful...it's 50% more powerful....(considering full house 44 Mag, not the big ammo producers lowered specs)
 
The .454 Casull can deliver a 250 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of over 1900 feet per second, developing more than 2000 ft·lb of energy...

that's about 2/3rds of the 2,820 ft·lb the 30.06 generates. which most would consider the low end for grizz.

their hearts beat very slowly, so hitting them there isn't plan "A" in my book. it needs to be a round that will get through to the joint bones of the front shoulders, the best bet for a quick stop.

gunnie
 
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The .454 Casull can deliver a 250 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of over 1900 feet per second, developing more than 2000 ft·lb of energy...

that's about 2/3rds of the 2,820 ft·lb the 30.06 generates. which most would consider the low end for grizz.

their hearts beat very slowly, so hitting them there isn't plan "A" in my book. it needs to be a round that will get through to the joint bones of the front shoulders, the best bet for a quick stop.

gunnie
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The energy figure alone I don't think it means that much

The Brenneke Black Magic delivers a 600 gr .73 hardened slug at a muzzle energy just above 3000 ft/lb,,,and it is NOT at the low end for a grizzly medicine...quite the contrary, it is considered one of the best grizzly stopper....in some tests it penetrated way more than a 458 Win Mag.


By the way, the best 30-06 180 gr ammo (for example the Winchester XP3) can go well above 3000 ft/lb...the Hornady Light Magnum, which you can use in any bolt action 06, claims 3361 ft/lb (2900 fps) out of a 24 inch barrel
 
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Ah, the ol' "bear handgun" topic. I'd rate a handgun as plan D:

Plan A - don't go places with a lot of brownies. Get in touch with local hunters or Fish & Game to learn about the area you're going to, then pick your guns accordingly.

Plan B - take standard precautions. Don't pitch a tent on a kill pile, don't cook your burgers near camp, etc.

Plan C - plans A & B have failed, and you're in a bear confrontation. This is pretty unlikely in most places. You and the other people involved should have practiced what to do in various scenarios, and it helps to learn about bear behavior first. What if the bear is walking towards you? Do you yell & throw rocks? Does a buddy use his bear spray? Do you shoot it with a 12 ga. slug? Your reaction needs to be predetermined.

Plan D - the bear has made contact. In this case, I think it would be nice to have a handgun to plug away with while the bear is chewing on me.

That said, I often carry just a Ruger .357 SP101 when I hike, but then I choose to hike in areas where blackbears are rare & grizzlies are unheard of. I choose this gun because I'm pretty proficient with it compared to the larger calibers, and it's not too heavy to pack. It's more for 2-legged beasties than for bears.
 
Alaska's 9 rules of Handguns versus Bears.

Food for thought:

1.) a bears heart beats only once every 15 seconds. (sloooow metabolism)
2.) a bear can cover 100 yards, and crush you, in about the time it takes to say one, two, three, four, five. (how many EFFECTIVE shots did ya get off?)
3.) .44magnum slugs have been found matted in the bears thick hide....then you have huge layers of muscle/bone before getting to vitals. (also refer slow, 15second heartbeat above, and that's once you hit vitals.)
4.) DO NOT use hollowpoints in that pistol (if you MUST use a pistol)...or RIFLE. Think PENETRATION! (see #3 above). Pretend you are shooting a 1950 charging buick with teeth and claws.
5.) For BEAR hunting it's generally accepted to use a MINIMUM of a 300winmag, and that's at the LOW end of the spectrum. .338winmag, or 375H&H are typical. Now think where your 454 causel rates in energy (at 100 yds) compared to .338winmag.
6.) 12ga with slugs is accepted Emergency, AT CLOSE RANGE. Do you want him close?
7.) IF you must use pistol, recommend filing down front site, so it doesn't hurt as much when the bear shoves that pistol where the sun don't shine.
8.) .22 pistol minimum recommended for old trick of shooting buddy in the foot, then outrunning him (leaving him as a distraction for the bear).
9.) Some success has been had by trying to "break the bear down", ie: shooting for shoulder/hip joints. Good luck with that.

bearcub3.gif
Alaska Grizzly, 1960's, Denali National Park.


The current Alaska advice is to wear hiker's bells clipped to your pack (so as not to startle the Bear) and carry pepper spray.
This makes it easier to find you.
All the rangers have to do is look for Bear Scatt that has little bells in it, and smells like pepper.
 
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45-70 considered light, except at closer ranges. Maybe with smaller Blackbears, okay.
But, pretty much Close-up (last ditch) trail gun only. (kinda Like a 12ga.)
Even 30-06 considered light, but maybe that's changed NOW with new higher pressure loads.
.338 Minimum for ME!

And NEVER use a soft/expanding bullet. Think PENETRATION...or you won't get to the vitals.

Here's a couple...one which really ticks me off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZnsL7-UdGc
and NO PLACE for a handgun, or underpowered rifle.
 
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Well, gosh, I only live in Washington,

Not the Far Dangerous North.

Down here a 12 gauge is good enough for me.

Sounds like, up there, that the minimum

For griz would be an RPG.

That is, if you are serious,

Rather than running a tricked up cosmetic teevee special gun.


Isher
 
Maybe for Blackbear, but not Brown (or Polar, FWIW).
Generally accepted minimum .300 winmag.
.338/.375 better.
Show up to a bear hunt with less, get sent home.
Archery is effective because: PENETRATION/ENERGY.

Don't get me wrong, people do it with less.
But why would you take a chance on a wounded bear, and are YOU going in those alders after him (with that same handgun), when you do, to finish what you started?
 
Maybe for Blackbear, but not Brown (or Polar, FWIW).
Generally accepted minimum .300 winmag.
.338/.375 better.
Show up to a bear hunt with less, get sent home.
Archery is effective because: PENETRATION/ENERGY.

Don't get me wrong, people do it with less.
But why would you take a chance on a wounded bear, and are YOU going in those alders after him (with that same handgun), when you do, to finish what you started?
Click to expand...

Never hunted a bear (never hunted period even if I'm a gun owner and lover) and never been in Alaska.

But from what I heard from older, reliable and very experienced people that lived and worked in Alaska for decades (some still live there) and some got pics to show their "love encounters" this is what they said:

Grizzlies (shot for hunting or for defense against a charge) has been brought down all the time with 30-06, and even 30-30 lever, 35 Remington, 45-70, 303 British, etc..

Bullet construction AND bullet placement is paramount...you can have the biggest rifle of all, if you place a lousy shot (and in that moment, when you fudge your pants even the best sharpshooter can become a lousy shot)
You are going to become bear food......in bear attacks some people died or got mauled with a 458 Win Mag and some survived without a scratch with a 30-30..it all depends...hit them in the wrong spot, especially when they are enraged, they can soak up .375 H&H bullets like candies....

At very close range few rifle rounds can match a Brenneke Black Magic against a charging grizzly...especially if you can quickly pump more than one slug on him.

You should use the gun you are proficient with and that doesn't make you flinch...there is no point of using a 338 Win Mag if you shoot all over the place...

Regardless of how good you are, you should never go under a 30-30 or similar (stressing again proper bullet construction and weight)...yes maybe you can bring down a Grizzly shooting in his eye with a .22 but....well you get the point....

44 Mag revolvers have been used very successfully against grizzly at close range...again, appropriate bullet construction and bullet placement

Chuck Hawks's article about handguns protection in the field

http://www.chuckhawks.com/protection_field.htm

In the 44 Magnum section he writes:

"The best choice, for the relatively few shooters who can actually shoot it with the required level of precision, is probably a full power .44 Magnum shooting a 240 grain (SD .185) to 300 grain (SD .232) bullet. The big .44 has proven that it can make an impression on even the largest predators."

Garret Hammerhead FAQ page on 44 magnum for grizzly defence

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/q&a.asp

From the Garrett page:

Are our 44 Magnum loads really capable of handling grizzly? The answer is yes, in the hands of a reliable shot. From a comparative point of view, our 44 Magnum Hammerheads provide far more penetration than the 300-grain NosIer Partition fired from the 375 Holland & Holland. Also, both bullets present an extremely blunt front end (meplat). Our 44 bullets also offer far greater security from bullet fracture or deflection than any expanding bullet. Since beginning production in 1988 we have had many customers defend themselves from grizzlies, and always our 44 Magnum ammo has provided super-deep penetration, generally to the hips on a frontally shot bear (even when the skull is engaged.)

FInally, they told me that the minimum accepted caliber for grizzly in Alaska tend to get bigger as you get closer to the big cities and/or among the "thrill seeker sunday hunters" (the words they used)......:uhoh:

On a side note, my co-worker is Russian, from the city of Petropavlovsk on the Kamchatka peninsula in Siberia and he told me that over there they use sporterized Mosins all the time for big browns and even polars..and they do not feel undergunned that much...
 
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Good Post Saturno! Lot's of good points.

I am one of those "older, reliable and very experienced people that lived and worked in Alaska for decades" (not bragging, just life)...and I have to wonder about any old time Alaskan (Sourdough) who would advise shooting with "Grizzlies brought down all the time with 30-06, and even 30-30 lever, 35 Remington, 45-70, 303 British, etc.."

Shooting with underpowered rounds (rifle or pistol) leaves a wounded Bear, that a GUIDE has to chase into the willow patch and finish. It endangers peoples lives, and it's cruel to the Bear.

Yes, bears are taken with .270's and 30-30's and 30-06's, and even .243 and .44mag's. He can die of a .22 rimfire too (from infection in a month) but will also do a lot of damage in the meantime. They are NOT slow lumbering animals. They will outrun a quarter horse in 1/4 mile. And they will do damage.

As you said in your post:
"when you fudge your pants even the best sharpshooter can become a lousy shot".

So, as ALL the old timers I have hunted with since the 1960's would say "why would anyone advise going against Bear with anything less than .30cal Magnum Caliber...let alone with a pistol?"

Now, if you can get that energy from a newer 30-06 or 8mm, great.
But if you showed up at any of me or my buddy's bear hunts with a 30-30, or similar numbers (like an SKS, AK-47, or worse an AR-15)...well we're sending ya home.

Because an underpowered gun is "thrill seeker sunday hunter" stuff, and we don't play that.
Shooting with underpowered rounds leaves a wounded Bear, that a GUIDE then has to finish. It endangers people, and it's cruel to the Bear. (nearer to "the city" or "the bush" doesn't matter).

Three things have to be right for Bear:
1.)Shot placement.
2.)Penetration
3.)Luck

Why take a chance with any of those variables that you CAN control, and possibly wound a bear? THAT'S "sunday hunter" stuff...

I'm gonna stack the cards in my favor, and carrying around a handgun or underpowered rifle for bear
is "Chichaco"...(Alaska Native word, not mine, meaning "Alaskan who thinks he's a sourdough, but isn't").;)

In the Garrett writeup they say "44 Magnum Hammerheads provide far more penetration than the 300-grain Nosler Partition fired from the 375 Holland & Holland"...yeah, sure a "Hammerhead" (FMJ?) made for penetration MAY penetrate more than a soft tip EXPANDING Nosler Partition. (it's apples and oranges, and misleading marketing).
DO NOT USE EXPANDING HOLLOWPOINT AMMO FOR BEARS.


I would rather see you with Peper-spray than an underpowered gun.
Pepper spray IS effective...but at CLOSE range (yikes!).
You said it well, about your Russian friends "do not feel undergunned that much..."
Well, let's check the numbers.

Minimum: Magnum Caliber (example: .300winmag) with 3000ftlb minimum, close to 3000fps volocity (or better), and .338/.375 type numbers are better.
Check the ballistics numbers. The new ULTRA-mags are looking good. 8mm or 30-06, not so much.
I like my old 300 Weatherby, but that's sentimental (and freakin expensive).
But, 3000/3000ish numbers+++...if planning ahead. (.338/.375 better numbers)

12ga/Pepper for surprises.

WWSPD
 
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free country

AZ guide.....+1

a little old native grandmother once whacked a record bear with a 22lr rifle.

a guy who long held the record for killing the most grizz did it with a winchester lever 30-30.

david killed goliath with a slingshot.

the reason these stories get passed on for so long is the odds defying qualities of the story.

if i am going to have to shoot something/someone, i want all of the odds i can get in my favor.

you ARE free to make your own decisions also.

gunnie
 
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Seeing's how this is a question on what handgun to carry for Grizzly bear defense, and not what else you would carry.

I say the biggest gun you can shot accurately. If you are charged by a brown bear, 95% of the time the bear is going to get to you before you can even get a shot off. Now if you do have time to shoot, it will be at a moving target and your ass is in flight mode.

When I was in Alaska on a Caribou hunt, we had a inland Grizzly come into our camp, even with my 300 Win Mag I felt under gunned. But the handgun I had with me for the tent and around camp was a custom 2 1/2 inch Super Redhawk in 454 Casull loaded with 300 gr. penatrator rounds. (Before the Alaskan ever came out). That was the biggest handgun I owned at the time. Now if I went back, my 4 inch S&W 500 mag would get the call, loaded with my hot loaded 700 gr. Ranger Rick bullets. 700 gr. at 1200 fps is an awesome penetrating machine.

What one has to think about also is, if a bear is on you, what gun would you use if you "had the chance" to use it. My choice would be the biggest I could carry. My 4 inch S&W 500 Mag.

I just hope, I never put myself into the situation as to have to defend myself agents a Grizzly. The best thing to do is use your head, and be very aware of what is around you. Use good common sense and avoid a bear confrontation at all costs.
 
You said it well, about your Russian friends "do not feel undergunned that much..."
Click to expand...

I ran the numbers on 7.62x54R. Most commercial loadings are equivalent in power to 7mm Rem. Mag or 30-06. It's got the power and the penetration. In Russia, this round is rated for polar bear. Not saying I'd ever want to use it as such (or be in an area with a polar bear, for that matter), but they have used it successfully. You have to also understand that they can buy Dragunov and Tigr semi-autos directly from the factory, so they're not necessarily running with a bolt action, either.

For a handgun, as already stated, your best bet is a .454 Casull.
 
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