heads up on SA 35

[roval]

i saw an email from grab a gun. for those wanting an SA 35 for $699 your day has come. don't know how much they have in stock though and of course it is not like getting one from the lgs where you can examine it.

 

[HPJeep]

I need another HP like I need another hole in my head. But it is tempting!

 

[roval]

it looks like they increased the price by $5 from a few days ago.

 

[whatnickname]

I need another HP like I need another hole in my head. But it is tempting!

I’ve got two SA-35s…dang if those boys don’t make a better Hi-Power than the last iterations turned out by Browning. The last SA-35 I bought came from my LGS @ $745… too good a deal to pass up. Would love to know how Springfield can afford to retail these between $700 and $800 when the best Browning could do in the end was in the range of $1400. My guess would be precision cast frames and slides on the Springfield whereas Browning was probably milling slides and frames the old fashioned way and then polishing and bluing the frames. I bet Browning could kick themselves for letting that market get away from them.

 

[halfmoonclip]

The cost explanation is relatively cheap Turkish labor; whatever smoke Springfield may be blowing, the SA35 is, to some degree, a Turk. Not that there is anything wrong with that; Filipino, Brazilian or Chinese 1911s were generally good stuff.
I've a Turk 1911 and the Springer HiPo; both are nicely made and fitted.
As regards FN regretting losing the HiPo; they were struggling, both with worn tooling, and skilled manpower. Had one of those 'itinerary' models, made in Belgium, finished in Portugal, etc.
Can't say that reports of their replacement model have been overwhelming.
There have been some Tisas-marked HiPos marketed in the $400 range.
Moon

 

[Charlie98]

Had one of those 'itinerary' models, made in Belgium, finished in Portugal, etc.

I had one of those, too. I shot a friends Belgian HiPower, so I got one of my own. What a piece of junk. The slide rattled on the frame so bad, I couldn't get anyone to take it off my hands... and wound up giving it away to a friend in need.

I may have to buy my wife some dinner and flowers... a $700 SA35, you say?

 

[PCFlorida]

I bought one of the Girsan MCP35 models earlier this year for about $500 shipped to my local gun shop. Works like a charm probably have over 1000 rounds through it now. Great gun, now I know what everyone has been talking about for years.

 

[WVsig]

The cost explanation is relatively cheap Turkish labor; whatever smoke Springfield may be blowing, the SA35 is, to some degree, a Turk. Not that there is anything wrong with that; Filipino, Brazilian or Chinese 1911s were generally good stuff.
I've a Turk 1911 and the Springer HiPo; both are nicely made and fitted.
As regards FN regretting losing the HiPo; they were struggling, both with worn tooling, and skilled manpower. Had one of those 'itinerary' models, made in Belgium, finished in Portugal, etc.
Can't say that reports of their replacement model have been overwhelming.
There have been some Tisas-marked HiPos marketed in the $400 range.
Moon

FN had been assembling BHPs in Portugal starting somewhere in the early 1970s. This is when they bought the plant in Viana they were not marked that way until the MKIII.

The SA-35 is a Tisas with SA rollmarks milled and assembled in the US. They are all forged frame, slide and barrel. The FOMO has ended and they are now available in a ton of places for $650 + shipping etc…

The new Girsans are also selling well.

 

[Mizar]

This is when they bought the plant in Viana they were not marked that way until the MKIII.

Mk III models for the European market were stamped only with "Made in Belgium" - they were still assembled in Portugal, but FN didn't bother to acknowledge that... Same with the majority of Browning shotguns - only the ones that were fully made in Portugal (not only assembled there) are marked accordingly.
P.S. This is just a trivia, an interesting fact, but nothing more.

 

[halfmoonclip]

The HiPo is a mystery; it doesn't seem that it should be that hard to make, in just the way 1911s are made here, there, and everywhere.
In any case, pretty darned happy with my Springer; I've a nickeled, Belgian HiPo that I like better, but really shouldn't shoot it too much.
It's a puzzlement that FN didn't at least make their new pistols share a common magazine with the originals.
Moon

 

[Mizar]

It's a puzzlement that FN didn't at least make their new pistols share a common magazine with the originals.

It holds only 13 rounds in times when people demand at least 15. For a sub-compact... Hi Power has a short magazine/grip, that is designed from the start to hold 13 rounds - make it a 15 rounder in that configuration and you are asking for troubles in a long run. You want more cartridges, like 17? Sure you can have it, but you can't use the old magazines because of the taller grip.

 

[halfmoonclip]

It holds only 13 rounds in times when people demand at least 15.

Actually, the MecGar magazines, supplied with the Springer SA-35, hold 15 rounds. The older, 13 round mags, fit and function too.
Now expanding it beyond 15 would indeed be challenging. Having been through the Clinton ban (some of my HiPo mags date from that period, paid $40+ for them), it's just nice not to have to deal with other mags...
Moon

 

[WVsig]

The HiPo is a mystery; it doesn't seem that it should be that hard to make, in just the way 1911s are made here, there, and everywhere.
In any case, pretty darned happy with my Springer; I've a nickeled, Belgian HiPo that I like better, but really shouldn't shoot it too much.
It's a puzzlement that FN didn't at least make their new pistols share a common magazine with the originals.
Moon

It is a labor intensive design and FN never put any money into modernizing the process. Also it would not make sense to design a modern full sized gun with a capacity of 15 rounds. I believe they leverage design techniques and tech from other current guns, My issue with the new one it is just too big. I like original design better. Also there is no reason not to shoot the nickeled one.

 

[WVsig]

Actually, the MecGar magazines, supplied with the Springer SA-35, hold 15 rounds. The older, 13 round mags, fit and function too.
Now expanding it beyond 15 would indeed be challenging. Having been through the Clinton ban (some of my HiPo mags date from that period, paid $40+ for them), it's just nice not to have to deal with other mags...
Moon

The issue with the 15 rounders is that in order to get the additional 2 rounds in to the tube that had to remove the legs or the skirt on the followers which prevent them from tipping. If you use the 15 rounders heavily as the spring the weaken the follower can tilt causing a missfeed.

This is the 15 round follower.


These are 13 round followers.

 

[halfmoonclip]

My issue with the new one it is just too big. I like original design better. Also there is no reason not to shoot the nickeled one.

Concur on the size of the traditional version; one of the few metal framed double stack autos that actually fits my (smallish) hands. The Smith 59s always felt like a 2x4. The new FNs are a bunch of money as well. The nickel versions aren't the Lincoln derringer, but they are uncommon enough that I'd rather beat up something else...like the Springer. That's why I have it.
Moon

 

[Mizar]

Actually, the MecGar magazines, supplied with the Springer SA-35, hold 15 rounds. The older, 13 round mags, fit and function too.

I'll say it again - the magazine was designed to hold 13 rounds. Everything above that is a compromise, as WVsig pointed out. Yes, you can get a 15 rounder, yes, it works "almost flawlessly" for a range toy, but it was never meant to hold 15 rounds - it's just too short to function reliably in a long run. You want a reliable gun holding more cartridges? Get a longer magazine.

 

[halfmoonclip]

The issue with the 15 rounders is that in order to get the additional 2 rounds in to the tube that had to remove the legs on the followers which prevent them from tipping. If you use the 15 rounders heavily as the spring the weaken the follower can tilt causing a missfeed.

Will take that under advisement, but I've quite a lot of confidence in the magmaking skill of the folks at MecGar. Also, the one pictured follower has studs, to avoid overcompression of the mag spring....there are no legs to steady the follower.
This seems much ado about nothing; have you ever looked at a 365 mag? Anyway, as noted, I'll keep it in mind. And any mag with a weakened spring can cause mischief.
Thanks,
Moon

 

[Mizar]

The studs rest on the magazine tube via the spring's coils, thus preventing the follower from tilting - they are not put there to only prevent over compression. Furthermore, the latest iteration (and the best by far) is the one with four legs sliding directly on the magazine tube, as seen in Mk III magazines.

 

[WVsig]

Will take that under advisement, but I've quite a lot of confidence in the magmaking skill of the folks at MecGar. Also, the one pictured follower has studs, to avoid overcompression of the mag spring....there are no legs to steady the follower.
This seems much ado about nothing; have you ever looked at a 365 mag? Anyway, as noted, I'll keep it in mind. And any mag with a weakened spring can cause mischief.
Thanks,
Moon

The 15s are not as reliable as the 13s. The follower can and will tilt as the spring wears. You can choose to believe that you want but most high round count BHP shooters understand this. I have a lot of time behind a BHP. I know what I am talking about. Most shooters will never send enough rounds down the pipe to shoot a 15 rounder to failure but it does not mean hey do not fail as a result of the modification.

If you take the mags apart it becomes clear that the designs with skirt and the legs sit higher and do not tilt. The first sign of the impending failure is the 15s will start to fail to lock the slide back when empty. This tells you the follower is not in its highest possible position. I treat 15 rounders a disposable wear items. Once they do this I change the spring and they are relegated to range mags. There is no doubt that Mecgar makes a good mag but in order to accomplish the goal they tampered with Saive's design.

 

[halfmoonclip]

Sorry, guys, just not on my worry list.
Be well, and thanks.
Moon

 

[Gork10]

Iv got 2 Girsan's, a standard model and a pi. Also got a mk 3. Love all three of them. The Turk guns run as well as the original.no issues with any of them. The pi is my main carry gun. It's my understanding that FN had to start putting made in Portugal after some laws were changed in the EU.

 

[WVsig]

Iv got 2 Girsan's, a standard model and a pi. Also got a mk 3. Love all three of them. The Turk guns run as well as the original.no issues with any of them. The pi is my main carry gun. It's my understanding that FN had to start putting made in Portugal after some laws were changed in the EU.

The rollmark was used before the EU existed. The internet myth story is that it was a misunderstanding of US import labeling regulations and that place of final assembly had to be listed. Browning rollmarked Hi Powers destined for the US & North American market are roll marked "Assembled In Portugal". FN-branded Hi Powers are not marked "Assembled In Portugal" even though some were destined for the US market. Many FN rollmarked BHPs were manufactured for the non-North American market and were import by secondary sources. There are some exceptions but that is the general rule.

Since about 1973-1975 all the FN and Browning-branded Hi Powers came off the FN assembly line at the same time and were "Assembled In Portugal" regardless of what their roll marks say.

 

[whatnickname]

I go

The 15s are not as reliable as the 13s. The follower can and will tilt as the spring wears. You can choose to believe that you want but most high round count BHP shooters understand this. I have a lot of time behind a BHP. I know what I am talking about. Most shooters will never send enough rounds down the pipe to shoot a 15 rounder to failure but it does not mean hey do not fail as a result of the modification.

If you take the mags apart it becomes clear that the designs with skirt and the legs sit higher and do not tilt. The first sign of the impending failure is the 15s will start to fail to lock the slide back when empty. This tells you the follower is not in its highest possible position. I treat 15 rounders a disposable wear items. Once they do this I change the spring and they are relegated to range mags. There is no doubt that Mecgar makes a good mag but in order to accomplish the goal they tampered with Saive's design.

Both of the magazines that came with my SA35s are MEC-GAR 15 rounders. Seem to work well. The spare magazines I purchased were 13 rounders. Never really thought much about eventual reliability issues. Purchased the OEM 13 round magazines because I figured that John M. Browning didn’t just arbitrarily decide on 13 rounds…figured he had good reason. From a practical point, if I happen to have one of the Hi-Powers in my possession when stuff goes sideways, and I haven’t fixed my problem, the additional two rounds aren’t likely to be all that decisive.

Does anyone know if the 13 round MEC-GAR magazines have the same follower that the 15 round magazines have?

 

[halfmoonclip]

To my knowledge, all current MecGar production is 15 round.
As regards the Browning/Saive HiPo design being perfection incarnate, come down from the mountaintop...that internal extractor has been gone for some long time now.
The Savage pistols were one of the few preceding designs offering a double stack handgun magazine; the HiPo's name came from its (then) amazing 13 round capacity. Everybody else had single stacks.
Let's back up and take a deep breath. Magazine design has made great leaps since 1935; again, witness the 365 9mm pocket pistol with a 10 round capacity.
Doubt this? Take any modern mag, fill it to capacity, there's just enough slack to lock in against a closed slide. Older mag designs have more slack.
Adding two rounds shouldn't put the design to the edge of failure, done by an outfit like MecGar.
Are magazines consumable parts? Absolutely. You'll want spares, and keep an eye on individual mag's performance. I number all of mine, and keep track of any troublemakers. Two of my 365 mags had duff springs early on; I fitted replacements.
So keep an eye on your mags, especially high round count examples, clean, replace springs as needed. Treat mag maintenance just like replacing springs elsewhere in a pistol.
Moon

 

[Rock185]

As a long time owner, user, carrier of Hi Powers, I was suspicious of the 15 round Hi Power magazines for the reasons WVsig mentions. I have a number of both 13 and 15 round magazines. I've not experienced a malfunction yet in using the 15 rounders in my SA-35 or FN guns. I admit I have not put a lot of ammo through any one 15 round magazine though.

Just 2¢ on MecGar quality in general; I've always been impressed. Back in '94, just before the Clinton assault weapons ban went into effect, I bought three 13 round MecGar magazines. To this day, I've never experienced a failure of any type with those three magazines..