Hey guys, should I get a Glock or an S&W MP ??

[David E]

....whether the Glock or the XD is superior. The answer to that question is the same as the OP's question. They are equal, and any amount of preference a given shooter has for one or the other is subjective.

Not quite.

"Superior" for what?

A list can be compiled for each, pros and cons, and an objective decision can be based on that, but it's best to take that list in conjunction with shooting the various gun choices.

The pointability issue of the Glock is legendary. It created a cottage industry of folks making the Glock point "right" for countless people.

 

[230therapy]

First you say grip angle doesn't matter, then say get the one that points more naturally.

How a gun points has much to do with grip angle.

How to "proper" aim a gun isn't the same as pointing it. Going slow and purposefully, it's easy to navigate and overcome deficiencies in design, but that doesn't make them go away.

Few people think a gun feels good that doesn't also point well for them.

If it's the first handgun, then there is nothing to unlearn, pointing-wise. But it's silly to fight your own equipment when you don't have to.

Grip angle does NOT matter. It's just a crutch shooters use to explain poor performance. Trigger control is a vastly more important factor that causes shooters trouble. Very few people hold the gun in such a way that the grip angle points the gun exactly on the target. Some adjustment will be necessary and it is called "aiming".

People can, and do, learn how a gun shoots. As I stated before, the 1911 grip angle is the closest to what my physiology demands. But...I shoot Glocks and they point high for me (the bottom of front sight post is exactly in line with the top edge of the front sight). Revolvers tend to come up low for me, depending upon the stocks used. Yet, I somehow manage to shoot tight groups fast and accurately using aiming, point shooting, flash sight picture, and so forth with Glocks, 1911's, and revolvers.

This is all a learned response. Master trigger control. Don't blame the gun!

 

[psyshack]

I agree with 230 and a few other posters. While my M&P .45 fits my hand well, thus the egros are great! I can still shoot my CZ-52 like it has laser guided bullets.

I just ordered a G20 full size. No need for SF for me. This will be my first Glock!

IMHO the hand is a very flexible tool. The best ever made! So now I'm going to ask my hands and digits work there magic again.

For me some of life's easiest lesson's are the hardest for me to remember at times. For me the strong hand is only for location and trigger control. Support and aiming are weak hand functions.

 

[Pizzagunner]

Grip angle does NOT matter. It's just a crutch shooters use to explain poor performance.

That's not quite the whole story.

Grip angle is also a preference. A preference for one angle of grip over another is a completely valid criteria to reject one pistol in favor of another.

 

[dondavis3]

@ pizzagunner

I agree

 

[RatherNotSay]

Both are great but I have more experience, and bias, toward the glock. I greased my glock 21, shot 250rounds, went home, went to bed, woke up, buddy calls me to go shoot, grab the glock, forgot I didn't clean it, wiped the surface grease off, shot another 250 rounds with out a failure and went home. Glocks will go bang every time even if your running them dry. They are ridiculously easy to clean and you can FULLY disassemble them by removing 3 pins. The guts of the glock are built on simplicity. Below is a picture of the guts minus the trigger stop which is just a small polymer piece. I was doing a 25cent trigger job when I just felt like doing the whole thing. There is also a huge after market from springs, trigger concectors, slides, ported barrels, threaded barrels, "race" barrels/slides. Both have a LONG history with military/law enforcement. Honestly if my life was on the line I would reach for the glock.



Personal Preference
1. Glock
2. Sig P226
3. Springfield XDM
4. S&W M&P

 

[basicblur]

Grip angle is also a preference.

One of the first things I do when I consider a new gun is pick a target, close my eyes, bring it on target, then open 'em and see how close I am. Iff'n I'm close, then it points naturally for me (as I have learned to do with all my handguns).

Every gun I have-various makes and models-point naturally for me. First time I picked up a Glock and tried my little test, I could tell something didn't feel right, and when I opened my eyes, I was way off target.

Sure I can bring it back on target no problem, but as others have stated, since everything else points naturally, I see no reason to have an oddball in the collection-after all, might have to resort to point shooting somewhere down the line.

'Course, that's not the only reason I don't have one, but we won't go into that!

 

[JR24]

^^^ Exactly my view. Why spend money on something that I have to train a whole new grip/shooting stance/skillset/whatever you want to call it when I can get something similarly priced, reliable, and accurate that shoots and points the same as all the rest of my guns; i.e. M&P or Ruger SR or Walther or etc.

Of course maybe thats the challenge and something that someone would want, to learn a new skillset. Not for me. But of course YMMV

 

[RatherNotSay]

^^^ Exactly my view. Why spend money on something that I have to train a whole new grip/shooting stance/skillset/whatever you want to call it when I can get something similarly priced, reliable, and accurate that shoots and points the same as all the rest of my guns; i.e. M&P or Ruger SR or Walther or etc.

Of course maybe thats the challenge and something that someone would want, to learn a new skillset. Not for me. But of course YMMV

Honestly if you have to call it a "Skill" then maybe shooting isn't for you. The first time I picked up a glock this is what I shot at 25m. Not the greatest grouping but for a first time glock holder and second time shooter I had absolutely no issues with the grip.

 

[David E]

Grip angle does NOT matter. It's just a crutch shooters use to explain poor performance.

After 20+ years driving a 1911 and other guns with an identical grip amgle, Glocks point high.

That's why I stipulated that if it's his first handgun, grip angle matters much less, since nothing has to be adjusted or unlearned/relearned.

As I also said, shooting slowfire, one can easily accommodate this. But going fast, it takes a concerted effort to teach ones self to automatically adjust the wrists during the draw.

Yeah, I've taken the time, but it wasn't easy. Crutch for poor performance? You mean, I need to return the various HOA trophies I won with a Glock?

Very few people hold the gun in such a way that the grip angle points the gun exactly on the target. Some adjustment will be necessary and it is called "aiming".

It's not hard with the proper technique. But if you are going fast and the gun points high at the end of your draw stroke requiring adjustment, that's a tell tale sign the grip angle is off for you. You can either take the time to accommodate it, or you can try another gun you don't have to fight from the get-go.

 

[JR24]

That's a rather insulting reply.

Perhaps "skill" is the wrong word to use to imply a different way of doing things for best results. I personally would refer to that as a skillset, but you may be different. We all have our own interpretations.

Either way, to the OP, I would personally go with an M&P for ergonomics (esp grip angle) and stock sights. Both personal prefrences, both subjective.

 

[Skylerbone]

I find it interesting that so many assume those who don't care for the Glock's grip angle or feel can't shoot it accurately. I don't think anyone has stated that. I'll state that I shoot it as accurately as my M&Ps.

Second, saying a Glock is more reliable than any other brand is just unsupportable. My first post to this thread suggested that the OP buy both; a Gen. 2 Glock and either an M&P or a Smith SD to keep to budget. My biggest beef with Glock is the still unacknowledged problem with Gen. 4s. FTF and FTE were two rare things to previous owners and Glock's handling of current problems is to deny them, blame "weak" ammo or send out spring kits.

As for aftermarket accessories there are more than a dozen sight styles available, dozens of holsters, trigger kits to smooth, lighten pull, increase pull, shorten pull, caliber conversion barrels, comp barrels, threaded barrels, grips. I'm not sure what else people want?

I don't hate Glocks. I've simply found a pistol line that I feel is the equal of Glock in those areas important to me and superior in several more to include ergonomics. So far for negatives on the M&P I've heard "lousy trigger". That from someone who claimed his hands (to include trigger finger) were amazingly adaptable. So I guess I'll assume he can't shoot an M&P worth a darn.

 

[David E]

Honestly if you have to call it a "Skill" then maybe shooting isn't for you. The first time I picked up a glock this is what I shot at 25m. Not the greatest grouping but for a first time glock holder and second time shooter I had absolutely no issues with the grip.

Which is EXACTLY my point about grip angle not being as big a deal for a new, unskilled shooter.

 

[psyshack]

What's up with the word SKILL on this board? I had a post edited by one of our wonderful mod's because I used the word skill. Shooting is a skill/skill set. It's learned and practiced. And learning to shoot anything you pick up or shoulder is a learned/acquired skill.

That should get me banned. lololololol

 

[230therapy]

It's not hard with the proper technique. But if you are going fast and the gun points high at the end of your draw stroke requiring adjustment, that's a tell tale sign the grip angle is off for you. You can either take the time to accommodate it, or you can try another gun you don't have to fight from the get-go.

Why spend money on something that I have to train a whole new grip/shooting stance/skillset/whatever you want to call it when I can get something similarly priced, reliable, and accurate that shoots and points the same as all the rest of my guns; i.e. M&P or Ruger SR or Walther or etc.

You're doing that regardless of the gun if it's new to you. Once you become accustomed to it, the adjustments are done automatically and without conscious thought. If the shooter has to think about it after a magazine or two of familiarization, then more work on the shooting fundamentals is needed. This is one major reason why I dislike the "Beware of the man with one gun" idea. It promotes a lack of flexibility and resistance to training with different actions.

I guess my definition of proficiency is very different from most of those on THR. I firmly believe that a proficient handgun shooter shoot the same groups, both slow and rapid fire, and point shooting (and many variations), with any handgun of the type of their choice (revolver or semi-auto). They need to be able to move off the line of force, draw to the target, evaluate the situation, and think tactically while placing rounds on the target. The shooting has to occur through approximately 270 degrees of angle, anywhere from at hip level through eye level. The shooter should be able to safely fire when the muzzle is in contact, or near contact, with the target while possibly engaged in combatives. Finally, the shooter know how to run his or her gun regardless of external factors. ("Run the gun" includes skills such as malfunction clearance/handline, reloading the weapon in different ways, one handed reloads, etc while under some sort of pressure). Finally, the shooter has the mindset to never give up fighting, makes the commitment to carry with good intentions and that his or her actions may lead to the death of violent enemies.

 

[RatherNotSay]

That's a rather insulting reply.

Perhaps "skill" is the wrong word to use to imply a different way of doing things for best results. I personally would refer to that as a skillset, but you may be different. We all have our own interpretations.

Either way, to the OP, I would personally go with an M&P for ergonomics (esp grip angle) and stock sights. Both personal prefrences, both subjective.

I wasn't trying to insult anyone.

I'm just saying if someone can not adapt to shooting a firearm, not just glocks, and denounce it is just illogical. People can't blame a firearm for someone not being able to "learn" how to hold a firearm. It is self evident that learning a particular "skillset" and burning that "skillset" so far into your brain that it hinders you from firing another weapon is dangerous and irrational. You know that saying "jack of all trades, master of none?" Well in the case of firing a weapon that is a great way of life in my opinion. I drove automatic transmissions most of my life and my last 2 cars have been 6 speed manuals. I didn't blame my shift knob, shift knob height, or short throw for me know being able to drive correctly for the first few miles. I SUCKED IT UP, adjusted my mind, adapted to the changing condition and been loving it ever since. I didn't just say "it's not for me."

People go into coma for years, come out and have to learn how to walk again. They don't say "give me the wheel chair walking isn't for me anymore." People aren't learning how to do brain surgery they are learning how to hold a firearm...it's not rocket science. Being competent with AS MANY FIREARMS AS POSSIBLE is a skillset...not grip.

Moral of the story...

1. Be the jack of all trades, but don't set your grip (no pun intended) on one in particular.

2. Improvise, adapt and overcome.

 

[Mike1234567]

What's up with the word SKILL on this board? I had a post edited by one of our wonderful mod's because I used the word skill. Shooting is a skill/skill set. It's learned and practiced. And learning to shoot anything you pick up or shoulder is a learned/acquired skill.

That should get me banned. lololololol

Are you sure your post was edited because you used the term "skilled"? On this Board, I doubt that. And anyone with the even smallest bit of common sense will see through this. In my experience, the Mods here keep this Board clean as a whistle and never retaliate against idiot members who question every single thing they do.

 

[RatherNotSay]

I see no "last edited by" at the bottom of the post

 

[David E]

You're doing that regardless of the gun if it's new to you. If the shooter has to think about it after a magazine or two of familiarization, then more work on the shooting fundamentals is needed.

Are you suggesting that two magazines worth should be able to replace 20+ yrs of ingrained muscle memory?

Why should the shooter have to fight his own equipment?

I guess my definition of proficiency is very different from most of those on THR. I firmly believe that a proficient handgun shooter.......

Got any time frames, distances and acceptable group size?

 

[wristtwister]

I went through the S&W armorer's course a few weeks back, and the M&P's have the same grip angle as a 1911. If something's wrong with that, then it's been wrong for a century now.

There are few guns that have a truly "perfect" grip angle. The Beretta Cougar and PX4 Storm are two that come to mind, because when you raise the gun to fix your sights on the target, the front and rear sights come up aligned (that's "level" if you're shooting challenged). Now, I have to bump the front sight on both a 1911 and my M&P up to align with the rear sight, so THAT angle isn't "perfect" for me... so the grip angle IS important, but it's just one aspect of shooting that you need to learn about EACH gun. The Beretta's angles are perfect for me, but they're slightly different from the 1911... but there are lots of features that I like more about my other guns than I do the Berettas, so it's not the only consideration.

I usually carry a Para P12, and when I'm not carrying that, I'm carrying an SR9C or SR40. What you carry isn't as important as your ability with the gun, and your shot placement when you shoot. Arguing grip angles, calibers, and the like is like two fleas arguing over which one owns the dog. If you can't shoot, it wouldn't matter if you carried a shotgun, you'd still suck when you shoot...

WT

 

[RatherNotSay]

Are you suggesting that two magazines worth should be able to replace 20+ yrs of ingrained muscle memory?

Why should the shooter have to fight his own equipment?

Muscle memory is inconsequential if retrained over a brief period of time. What you are stating is not anatomically correct. The inability to adapt is not based on a muscle memory. It is strictly a, conscious or unconscious, decision to change ones will power. Humans are creatures of habit but we also have the ability to adapt very fast and efficiently....It's why we've survived so long and have evolved so well.

In 1896 a scientist by the name of George M. Stratton devised an experiment where he gave his subjects glasses that inverted the viewers vision. After a few days the subjects vision adapted to the inversion and everything was normal. After removing the glasses the subjects found their vision to be inverted even though they had taken off the glasses. Their brains had already adapted to the glasses and retrained itself accordingly. After a few days without the glasses their vision was inverted back to normal due to the same retraining of the brain.

The inability to adapt is not a universal hindrance among man kind it is definitively a selective lack of will power.

Golfers do it all the time with their swing, grip and stance

 

[gunfreax]

Hmmmm? My Glock 23 has about 7,000 rounds thru it, will shoot any ammo that's on sale flawlessly, can be field stripped by my 10 yr. old daughter with no problem, has the awesome ability to shoot .40, 357 sig and 9mm with conversion barrels, has every accessory you could ever imagine at discount pricing and is the ONLY brand I will have 100% confidence with when the zombies come a knockin (By the way, my Gen 3 has had 0 issues) That being said, ALL the staff at my club have converted to the M&P after years of loyal use with the Glock (they all happen to be retired LEO's) I have recently broken down and bought an M&P compact and am very,very impressed. Great ergos, reliable function and believe it or not.....I can't believe i'm gonna admit this...I think I actually shoot it better than my beloved Glock 23. I'm only 800 rounds down range with it but its a real contender to the Glock throne. In conclusion, I think either would suite your purpose.even though I think both are on the large side for concealed carry. Try a Kahr CW series.....

 

[Maple_City_Woodsman]

I think the ergonomics are better on the M&P, but not enough to sway me personally.

I the Glock may be blocky, but I don;t think it is as bad as everyone likes to complain. The M&P feels very 'fat' in my grip.

 

[basicblur]

Why should the shooter have to fight his own equipment?

Ahhh David E, David E, David E...
You do realize you're arguing with a "first time glock holder and second time shooter"?

Carry on....

 

[David E]

I wasn't trying to insult anyone.

No, you just call them unskilled and illogical and irrational. Who advises you on your non-offending comments, Joe Biden?

I'm just saying if someone can not adapt to shooting a firearm, not just glocks, and denounce it is just illogical.

Who has "denounced" Glocks? Hell, I own 13 of them. Won more than one match with them, too, but thanks for jumping to conclusions....

It is self evident that learning a particular "skillset" and burning that "skillset" so far into your brain that it hinders you from firing another weapon is dangerous and irrational.

As a matter of record, the 1911 pre-dates the Glock by 75 years. Becoming skilled with a gun before the other existed is "dangerous and irrational?"

You know that saying "jack of all trades, master of none?"

You do recall the OP was simply asking which one of TWO guns he should buy, right? He wasn't seeking advice about which two dozen guns he should master first.

Being competent with AS MANY FIREARMS AS POSSIBLE is a skillset...

And beyond the purview of the OP.

But to address it briefly, I've won State and/or Regional titles using revolvers, 1911's, snubbies, S&W 3914, M&P and even Glocks.

My point is, if, say, a Glock points high and you're not mandated to use it, you have a decision to make. Alter the grip so it points "right," spend the time to automatically compensate for it, or change to a gun that requires neither of those things. Then you can spend that same time improving your skills instead of fighting your gun.