high capacity is it . .

[mljdeckard]

And while it may well be true that just showing a gun will often end the emergency, one certainly shouldn't count on it. If I thought that showing a gun was a reliable way to end the fight, I wouldn't carry any ammo at all. I will take it a step further, I wouldn't carry a REAL GUN at all.

I think what the OP says is somewhat true, just not to the degree and frequency he seems to think it is. Yes there are shooters who rely too much on the idea of having more shots. But there are also the rest of us, who evolve either through training, experience, or both, to the point where we learn that shooting fundamentals are the most important thing regardless of which gun you use. I think the mistake a lot of us make, is to think everyone should do the same thing to the same extent for the save reason at I do.

I use 1911s because I like 1911s. I also have a SF-45A with 14-rd magazines I find myself carrying because I like it. I still carry a spare magazine. The main reason I don't carry it more, is that I only have a few holsters that will take the rail. MOST people think I am nuts for carrying a double-stack 1911 at all.

 

[LeonCarr]

I saw the word "Orcs" and the first thing I thought about were Killer Whales .

I favor the high capacity handgun for everything except EDC/second gun. I like a snub nose revolver for that in case I have to fire it from a jacket pocket, pants pocket, etc.

Statistically 75% of people shot with a handgun live. Everyone who carries a handgun for a living or self defense should fully expect to shoot more than once if involved in a deadly force situation. That, and the high probability of multiple assailants (Hopefully no one else on this board has to encounter 14 people like DammitBoy did, especially in a criminal's heaven like DC), are two good reasons to have plenty of rounds on tap.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[krupparms]

I think it just comes down to what you feel comfortable with! You can always carry as many spare mag.s as you feel you need! I carry my S&W, S.D.9 . It has 17 in the pistol & 2 spare 16 rd. mag.s on my belt. I hope I never need all that! (But life is like a box of chocolates,you never know what you'll get! As Forrest Gumps mama said!) Training helps but it will never cover everything. It never hurts to have rounds left over.

 

[HammsBeer]

What I want to carry, and what I actually carry are two different things. I'd prefer a 20 round full size pistol, but am not dilligent enough to carry that weight and bulk all day every day.

As far as full capacity shooters, I think it's more about younger shooters and the image of a macho full size full capacity gun blasting away. Those with more years and experience know that accurate hits, not quantity of shots, ussually makes the difference in most shootings.

 

[Armor Snail]

I might be thinking in different definitions of "high capacity" magazines than the OP, but I know the 20 and 32 round Mec Gar mags that fit the S&W 59 series auto loaders throw off how the gun balances, and if I'm using one, my groups open up noticeably. But the factory 12 and 15 round mags, which I do not consider to be hi-cap, I shoot with just fine.

Is a 17 round mag in a Glock 17 a hi-cap? I say no. Its the standard.

So, if that same G17 is being shot poorly, it could be for any number of reasons. The 'respawn' crowd is often guilty of spray an pray shooting, especially if they aren't buying the ammo.


I'm not a competition shooter, so if I can reliably put rounds on target at 15 yards, I'm happy. That target being the size of the average human torso from collar bone to belly button.

I am able to accomplish this with every gun and every magazine I own.

Also, I really don't care about the other guys shooting as long as he or she is doing so safely. I don't care if they can't hit the broadside of the barn from the inside, not my concern.

My 7+1 might be more than I ever need, but I still carry an extra 7.

Truth there.

 

[JohnKSa]

I have seen many folks with high capacity handguns and, to be honest, most are, at best, fair shooters.

At the ranges I go to, most folks are, at best, lousy shooters, and that's true no matter what kind of handgun they are shooting at the moment.

Once you can do this time after time, the 25yd target, you realize that the difference between 13 rds and 7 is of no consequence. You can hit, they will miss.

Doesn't matter how skilled you are at shooting paper--even at long distances. When someone starts shooting at you, it has a surprisingly deleterious effect on your ability to make solid hits.

As nearly as I can tell, it has a lot to do with the fact that: "remain unperforated" tends to rocket to the top of one's priority list while things like "carefully align the sights", "firmly press the trigger straight back", "take a proper grip on the pistol" and "assume a solid shooting stance" seem to drop down on the list to a position somewhere above: "stop screaming like a little girl" but usually below: "try not to soil yourself".

 

[DammitBoy]

Stayin' outta dark alleys in D.C. will go a heck of a lot farther at keeping you safe from 14 hoodlums than a high capacity handgun. More important for SD than round count is awareness of your surroundings and not putting yourself in a scenario to make you an easy target.

I learned several things that evening at the tender age of 19.

1) don't get really drunk, you become a target
2) stay under the street lights when walking back to your car from the bar
3) some people mean to do you harm
4) sometimes there will be fourteen of them

I carry a Para P14-45 and a spare mag. I can keep it in the eights.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

... seem to drop down on the list to a position somewhere above: "stop screaming like a little girl" but usually below: "try not to soil yourself".

I only have been shot at once in my life and this is exactly how I remember it.

I'm stealing this one. It's perfect.

VooDoo

 

[KenW.]

There are times when I think I'd be "under gunned" with just my .22 Mag derringer. That's when I'll take a 5, 13, or 16 shot gun instead.

 

[beeenbag]

Why is it you can't be a decent shot AND carry a double stack firearm?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

beenbag, I think the OP made it clear. Double stack carriers generally have poor mindset and have reasoned out that if they have more ammo, then they don't have to be good shooters. The OP has strange logic.

Here is another example. First he states that ...

In about 90% of all situations with 'orcs' precious little is needed beyond the mere presence of a firearm and the ability to use it.

Of course, mere presence resulting in conflict resolution has NOTHING to do with marksmanship. Then he notes

Spray and pray does not work.

If mere presence and ability to use a gun works 90% of the time, then you can dang sure bet that shooting at folks, whether you hit them or not, is going to work some of the time as well. In fact, there are numerous cases where home intruders, store robbers, etc. have all been repelled by a person shooting at them, often rapid fire (proverbial spray and pray) and quite effectively causing immediate evacuation of the bad guys from the location. In short, spray and pray most definitely can work as demonstrated by the fact that it has worked over and over again in the past. I would not want to count on it to work and I would not want to be spraying bullets haphazardly and praying they didn't hit the wrong person. Even so, the statement that spray and pray does not work is untrue as it is stated. It may not work all the time, but then again, shooting a person doesn't seem to work all the time either.

 

[DSAPT9]

I to have seen many at the range just throw lead down range this includes folks shooting 38s, high cap 9 and 1911 45s so I do not feel it is the gun but the person with the gun not honing their skills.

I have also seen guys who shoot bull’s-eye and can put 5 rounds down range all touching and then not hit the x or center mass once in a move and shoot competition or are so slow trying to get the best place shot they come in last because of time. Not the gun but the shooter.

When I first started to carry at age 21 I had a colt trooper 4 in 357 with a shoulder rig then I went to a 1911 full size then a commander. At this time I shot competition and the 1911 was the top gun but after picking up a Smith 659 9mm and modifying it for competition I had to learn to shoot more accurate as it was classed as a minor caliber and if you did not hit the center you got docked extra points totally killing your score but because of the 14 and 15 rd mags I could get through a stage without a mag change speeding up my time.

Move up to today I carry the Glock 19 not only for its 15 rd mag and its reliability (both good qualities) but because it fits my hand and I shoot it dang well. Like many here I was in the military and learned that it is better to have extra ammo than not enough so I also carry 2 17 rd g17 mags as back up.

Will I ever need all this ammo in a civilian situation? I hope I will never need my gun for any situation other than fun but times are a changing and I would rather be prepared than not.

So to make a long story even longer, it’s like saying if you hunt with a rifle that holds 30 rounds for some reason you’re going to shoot the deer all thirty times. Yet every hunter I know with a bolt action that holds 4 to 5 rounds also carries 10 to 20 extra rounds in their fanny/back pack. I say skip the fanny/back pack and carry 1 30 rd mag. I still only need 1 shot maybe two at most to do the job.

But if I am ever attacked by a herd of zombie deer I will be prepared.

Just my thoughts

 

[jp1944]

A touch of clarification is needed here to help with perspective.
In the early to mid 70's I was working on a doctorate in wound ballistics and used to go to the morgue of a large city to evaluate the differences between the 'macroscopic and microscopic' trauma caused by handgun projectiles. About 75% of the cadavers were taken out with small caliber 'ball' ammo. I over 18 months I saw ONE person taken out with a large bore - one.

When one sees some with multiple hits one thinks adrenalin first and last as to why the person remains mobile. I learned a good bit but left this field when offered a good sum to switch to cardiac electrophysiology. Kids and bills to pay. Nuff said.

I shot bullseye until my first multi-level spine surgery left my right hand with a tremor. Ego wise I could not go from shooting in the low 90's to the high 70's on a bullseye range - too small a man I guess. Going to shooting with two hands was almost a sin to me as a bullseye shooter.

After this I shot mainly .44M as this is what I hunted with be it ground hog or boar. In the winter I would go to a range where you weren't freezing your butt off and this is when I first observed the high capacity pistols being fired at very rapid rates. What surprised me more was seeing how few holes there were in the target.

I should have re-stated my initial comment to this: MOST folks with high capacity units never learn the basics of focus on the front sight, trigger squeeze and repeatability. Notice I said most and not all.

I see young adults in the range with NO safety etiquette, no understanding of what is safe handling etc. How are they allowed on the range?

I have recently been a civilian instructor for one of the Sheriff's Depts in PA and we offer shooting courses for folks with CCW permits and it is consistent that most are, at best, very frightening to watch - many have NEVER shot a hand gun. When we get into the 'move and shoot' controlled drills things get even more 'interesting' and the high capacity folks just seem to dry to dump as much as possible onto the targets they are called to hit. It doesn't work for most of these folks. If you are the instructor 'moving' the shooter or the instructor calling which target to shoot the high capacity folks can get all of your attention.

I ADMIT that we get few trained shooters with high capacity units and the ones who are trained are quite good but very rare indeed.

Capacity will never compensate for competence. I thank all for their comments and their courtesy.

 

[SDGlock23]

I have seen many folks with high capacity handguns and, to be honest, most are, at best, fair shooters. I think the mind set is you don't have to be competent of you have a lot of rounds - poor mindset.
In about 90% of all situations with 'orcs' precious little is needed beyond the mere presence of a firearm and the ability to use it. I define this, ability as staying on the 8 ring or better at 25 yds using and International Free Pistol Target. It is also the will to do what must be done and that will is immediately and unalterably observed by those who would do you and yours harm - never forget this fact.
Once you can do this time after time, the 25yd target, you realize that the difference between 13 rds and 7 is of no consequence. You can hit, they will miss.
Spray and pray does not work.

While I do agree that anyone who might want high capacity to "spray and pray" in order to make up for poor accuracy might not be playing with a full deck, I would say to those who can shoot good that more capacity is always better.

I shoot a lot of things and have owned a lot of different kinds of handguns. I like Glocks the best and yes, have some high cap magazines too. But I'm a good shot, I can shoot a Glock as well or better than anything else out there. I don't see extra capacity as anything but good, it just gives me more opportunity should I need it, but I don't have the "spray and pray" mindset, I make each shot count as I'm accountable for every bullet that leaves my weapon. Will I need 16+ rounds? I hope not, but I have the bullets there should I need them, however unlikely.

And for what it's worth, in most real life instances of having to use your weapon against someone, it's much easier to miss than you might think, a 50% hit ratio is considered above average. A guy over on arfcom was shot 3-4 times several years ago (in the chest, and in both hands) with a 5 shot .38 and managed to miss the bad guy from a distance of approx 6-7 ft twice using his .45 1911. He did hit the BG once though, in the hand. The BG had a much better hit ratio than the good guy, so don't count on them missing, most "career" criminals are pretty good at what they do.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Why is it you can't be a decent shot AND carry a double stack firearm?

This is the way to go.


It doesn't matter how many rounds are in the gun. If you can't QUICKLY put them all in the target where you want them, you lose.

Personally I have a very simple scoring system. 100% or Zero.
All hits where I want them is 100% and I live.
One miss is Zero and I'm dead.


For instance,
I do a lot of low light/dark laser and laser/light practice (home range).

A favorite exercise is fast firing while I'm randomly moving around from 5 yards to 15 yards.
I'll fire a hundred or more rounds at a time.

This steel target is typical. COM is about between the black lines. You seldom miss when using a laser in low light.

While the hits on this target are pretty decent, the score is still Zero. The hit on the right line is unacceptable. Suppose that was my first shot and the bad guy didn't miss me with his first shot? I probably wouldn't be shooting the next 99 rounds.

It doesn't matter how big your magazine is if you can't get a good hit with the first shot or two you will probably be dead.

 

[Mike1234567]

I get really tired of these threads so I won't comment other than to state three things: 1. I never panic, 2. I practice fairly often and am fairly accurate/consistent, 3. I have fairly high capacity magazines in my HD firearms.

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

This is how I see it. Having more ammo is best. If the bad guy has 10 rounds and I have 20 I have the advantage.

 

[buck460XVR]

I get really tired of these threads

Similar to "which gun for bear", "dumb clerk at Wal-Mart", "dumb guy at the range" and "what 5.....no 10....no 40, guns does every shooter NEED!"



Comparing SD CWC to Navy Seals or the LAPD Swat Team firearm needs is kinda like comparing what car we need to get to work as opposed to what a Indy car driver needs to win. What an individual needs and what they are comfortable with, can and many times are, two different things. What the average guy that walks drunk thru dark D.C. alleys at 2 a.m. in the morning needs will be different than me walking my dog in a small Midwestern town at 5 in the afternoon. If the bad guy has 20 rounds and you have 40, means nuttin' if you are so hypnotized by the text messages on your I-Phone, he gets the jump on you. Again, being aware of your surroundings, not walking into scenarios that endanger you and making yourself a victim and being prepared to use what you have on you proficiently will mean more than how many rounds in the mag or cylinder.

 

[Mastodon]

Originally Posted by Mike1234567 View Post
I get really tired of these threads

Similar to "which gun for bear", "dumb clerk at Wal-Mart", "dumb guy at the range" and "what 5.....no 10....no 40, guns does every shooter NEED!"

Comparing SD CWC to Navy Seals or the LAPD Swat Team firearm needs is kinda like comparing what car we need to get to work as opposed to what a Indy car driver needs to win. What an individual needs and what they are comfortable with, can and many times are, two different things. What the average guy that walks drunk thru dark D.C. alleys at 2 a.m. in the morning needs will be different than me walking my dog in a small Midwestern town at 5 in the afternoon. If the bad guy has 20 rounds and you have 40, means nuttin' if you are so hypnotized by the text messages on your I-Phone, he gets the jump on you. Again, being aware of your surroundings, not walking into scenarios that endanger you and making yourself a victim and being prepared to use what you have on you proficiently will mean more than how many rounds in the mag or cylinder.

^^ +1

 

[Jframe.38]

I prefer to have my 'personal defense weapon' actually on my person instead of in my car. As such I choose to use my range time practicing with a not quite as cool subcompact that translates into real life practicality instead of throwing lead downrange with a double stack or big bore that would sit in my car should I choose to carry that instead.

 

[browningguy]

I have seen many folks with high capacity handguns and, to be honest, most are, at best, fair shooters.

Seems like a wrong statement to start with, or you just shoot with the wrong type of people. The guys I shoot 3 gun with are all slightly better than "fair" shots, and all use hicap pistols. In production class for IDPA everyone I see shooting is using a hicap, and many of them are much better than "fair".

If you think you are better than people who shoot hicap guns show up at a match then tell us about it. I'm sure you could convince them to let you shoot a 1911 or revolver against the production guns to see how it goes.

 

[DammitBoy]

What the average guy that walks drunk thru dark D.C. alleys at 2 a.m. in the morning needs will be different than me walking my dog in a small Midwestern town at 5 in the afternoon...

What I needed was a life lesson and those young criminals gave me a very painful one I'll never forget. Their weapon of choice was baseball bats. My friend and I received multiple concussions and contusions as well as broken jaws. I spent a week in the hospital from a stab wound that grazed a kidney.

Of course, in DC, it was illegal to have any firearm - but if I'd had any firearm, I'm pretty sure those kids (the average age was 14-16) would have broke like a covey of quail at the sight of a firearm being produced.

In retrospect, there was no excuse for me putting myself in that situation. I could have taken a cab from our hotel to the Georgetown club/bar scene area. Instead of finding a free parking spot 3 blocks from the strip, I could have paid $5.00 to park on the strip. I could have consumed less alcohol. I could have traveled with a larger group.

I consider myself extremely lucky to have survived that lesson.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

The bottom line is that you should be as heavily armed with as many rounds on hand as you can carry, and in a gun you shoot well, and in the most powerful cartridge you can shoot effectively and ensure overpeneteration is minimized, and concealment is achieved, if you are CCing.

The original statement is filled with incorrect assumptions that you probably wont need lots of ammo.

A statement that includes the words "probably", "normally", or "in most cases" are all statements reflecting an average situation. Well, where I live, normal does not included getting jumped. The reality is that an average day does not include an attack. A day that does include an attack will also have averages and "normal" numbers like 1 or 2 perps. But as Damitboy pointed out, there are always outliars on the ends of the bell curve. To assume you do not need to be prepared for those extreme situations is folly.

Also, IMO, unless you are being shot at, you have no reasonable excuse for shooting at someone at 25 yards for self defense. The only possible reason I can think of is that you are witnessing someone else being attacked. But if there is a victim being attacked, are you going to try and shoot a perp off of them at 25 yards? Doubt it. I guess maybe a charging animal attack might warant it.

 

[RBid]

1. High cap pistols are being fired more than anything else, so it is going to be more common to see someone shooting those poorly than it will be to see people shooting subs, revolvers, or 1911s poorly. Nearly everyone I see at the range shoots badly, including guys with 1911s and SA revolvers.

2. Personally, my preference is to have as many advantages as I can reasonably maintain. I have training, I practice live and dry, I carry quality defensive rounds, I carry a spare magazine, I carry the same weapon every day, and I practice and train using the same firearm. I chose a 'high cap' pistol because I want to be able to put as many rounds in the target as it takes, NOT because I want to blot out the sun and hope something hits.

3. The people who throw out this 'high cap = spray and pray' stuff generally tend to be guys clinging to 5-8 shot weapons (which are fine), and seeking to somehow infer that their choice is indicative of a higher degree of proficiency. I suspect that it is universally true that they would be less accurate at any speed than Frank Proctor, Larry Vickers, Pat Macnamara, Shrek, Chris Costa, Travis Haley, Steve Fisher, Kyle DeFoor, Jason Falla, Mike Panonne, Todd Green, Paul Howe, etc... and these guys almost always carry 'high cap' pistols.


Again, the winning strategy is to give yourself as many advantages as possible (or reasonable).

 

[CDW4ME]

If someone typically carried a 5 shot snub, they might consider a Glock 26 to be high capacity.
However 10 rounds is not "high capacity" except in NYC.

Having extra rounds available doesn't imply lack of skill or that those rounds will be fired.