high end hk clone?

[Voltia]

Sorry, Rhino, that is not true.

Here are some terms:
Full power rifle cartridge: .308, 30-06, 7.62x54R, 45-70, and others
Intermediate power rifle cartridge: 7.62x39, 5.56x45, and the Russian one designed to compete with it.
Pistol cartridge: I hope I don't have to define that one for people here.

Machine gun: Shoots a full power rifle cartridge via a belt. Fully automatic, may have other modes. M2, M60, etc.

Sub-machine gun: Shoots a pistol cartridge in select fire, single shot, full auto, sometimes burst. HK MP5, Thompson, the Greasgun, Uzi, etc.

Assault rifle: Shoots an intermediate cartridge in select fire, single shot, sometimes
full auto, sometimes burst. The STG44 German Sturmgewehr "storm or ASSAULT rifle" was the first, and it was literally name Assault Rifle. The M16 and AK47 and variants are assault rifles.

Battle rifle, sometimes Main Battle Rifle. Shoots a full power cartridge in some form of fire. I say some form because main battle rifles were bolt action in the first world war, when all they had were springfields, and semi-auto in the second. However, it is usually meant to be at least semi-auto. The M1 Garand is the original in most regards. The M14, FAL, G3, are typical battle rifles.

Assault rifles have shorter barrels, and shoot smaller cartridges than battle rifles. SMGs have still shorter barrels and shoot pistol rounds.

So, to split tacks, in my opinion, the AR10 is a battle rifle, the AR15 is an assault rifle, albeit both are semi-auto versions of the Real McCoys.

 

[PDXguy]

I've had some ammo sensitivity with my PTR-91. My PTR has expensive tastes when it come to ammo. I've gone through several brands and did some tests and the results are here http://www.gothamsurvival.com/?p=1130.

The PTR I have is very accurate, finicky with types of ammo, a bit heavy and a whole lot of fun to shoot. Here is a pic of my PTR.

 

[RhinoDefense]

Voltia, define "power" in cartridges. I've been around the civilian and military firearms and ammunition sectors most of my life and have never seen this used in either.

 

[boricua9mm]

Does Daniel Defense make a Battle Rifle? Don't see one there, just poodle shooters and mall ninja stuff.

Mall Ninja stuff? Really? Maybe you didn't know, but Daniel Defense has done a great job to establish themselves as a high quality AR builder, doing a significant amount of real-deal manufacturing and R&D in-house, whereas most other companies are simply spanning stuff together and selling it for the same price. When you consider the fact that their free-floating rail systems with bank vault lockups also decrease weight, you're talking about products that are engineered and built for people that actually carry and use a rifle rather than lug it out to the range for a shuck-n-jive fest. When you consider the fact that their products are welcomed additions on the M4A1 and Mk18 project, the words "Mall Ninja" really seem far off base.
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On the topic of JLD rifles, they are indeed built on HK tooling, but that in itself is not an absolute assurance of quality. There are many JLD rifles out there with barrels that will only feed and fire Federal American Eagle ammo. The HK community jokingly refers to them as being chambered in AE.

As someone who regularly shoots HK pattern rifles, I will be the first to say that for the needs of the majority of North Americans, a quality manufacture AR15 outpaces the roller-locked rifles from the perspectives of ergonomics, speed, sustainability and modularity (although one can do a lot to custom tailor an HK type rifle). If you don't have a nice AR yet, get one of those first.

 

[Voltia]

Rhino, I don't need to do that. You should understand what it means.

To give you the short version: an assault rifle shoots an intermediate rifle round and a battle rifle shoots a full sized rifle round. If you can't figure it out from there, I can't help you. In fact, since I was trying to inform you, and you seem like you want an argument, I'm done with this one.

 

[dom1104]

The definition of "battle rifle" is a simple one.

Its a word mumbled by ar15/ak47 haters as they leave the range, realizing they just blew 300 dollars in ammo shooting at paper 100 yards away.

 

[MistWolf]

Sorry, Rhino, that is not true.

Here are some terms:
Full power rifle cartridge: .308, 30-06, 7.62x54R, 45-70, and others
Intermediate power rifle cartridge: 7.62x39, 5.56x45, and the Russian one designed to compete with it.
Pistol cartridge: I hope I don't have to define that one for people here.

Machine gun: Shoots a full power rifle cartridge via a belt. Fully automatic, may have other modes. M2, M60, etc.

Sub-machine gun: Shoots a pistol cartridge in select fire, single shot, full auto, sometimes burst. HK MP5, Thompson, the Greasgun, Uzi, etc.

Assault rifle: Shoots an intermediate cartridge in select fire, single shot, sometimes
full auto, sometimes burst. The STG44 German Sturmgewehr "storm or ASSAULT rifle" was the first, and it was literally name Assault Rifle. The M16 and AK47 and variants are assault rifles.

Battle rifle, sometimes Main Battle Rifle. Shoots a full power cartridge in some form of fire. I say some form because main battle rifles were bolt action in the first world war, when all they had were springfields, and semi-auto in the second. However, it is usually meant to be at least semi-auto. The M1 Garand is the original in most regards. The M14, FAL, G3, are typical battle rifles.

Assault rifles have shorter barrels, and shoot smaller cartridges than battle rifles. SMGs have still shorter barrels and shoot pistol rounds.

So, to split tacks, in my opinion, the AR10 is a battle rifle, the AR15 is an assault rifle, albeit both are semi-auto versions of the Real McCoys.

Voltia pretty much nailed it on the head. I would add that a true assault rifle is capable of select fire. Such calibers as the 8mm Mauser, 303 British, 30-06, 7.62x51 plus a few others are defined as "full power calibers". Calibers such as the 7.92 Kurz, 7.62x39, and the 5.56 are classed as "intermediate power calibers". Growing up, my father had a full library of firearms reference books and that's how they all classified the above rounds and the rifles that used them

 

[Earlsbud]

Dual 30 round mags clamped together make for a heavy rifle, but the extra weight helps tame muzzle rise. There are better choices that are easier to carry if you're trying to cover ground quickly.

 

[Davek1977]

I've been around the civilian and military firearms and ammunition sectors most of my life and have never seen this used in either.

I too have been raised around firearms, and Voltia's definitions match everything as I understood it growing up. By most people's definitions, the AR-15 is an assault rife, not a "battle rifle". There IS a difference

 

[Southern Deputy]

I just traded a DPMS AP4 to acquire my new PTR32. I know its a caliber change but ammo$$$ the way it is 7.62X39 is way easier on the wallet than the .308. The PTR-32 is in a word PERFECT. Much more powerful than a .556 with <2 MOA @ 100 yards. Oh and 1 thing that I could not have said about the AP4 no FTF or FTE 600 rounds of Tula steel case ammo. This is my go to "Zombie Apocalypse" gun

 

[Driftertank]

Love my PTR-91F. Have handled real HK's too. My gun's fit & finish seem to be at least on par with the "real thing."

Most TC contract barrels (AW-serial numbers) have shallow chamber flutes. Mine is one of them. Causes extraction issues with certain ammo types ("tar-sealed," most foreign milsurp) which bothered me originally, but i found that it has no problem with cheap steel cased ammo.

It's very reliable and accurate with decent ammo; shot 2.25" 100yd 5-shot group with irons couple weeks ago. Walmart UMC 150gr FMJ. I suspect once i fit a scope and switch to match ammo it'll be a 1MOA rifle. And that barrel doesn't string when it gets hot.

If you reload, be sure to get an ejection port buffer, or it will destroy brass. I also have a Bill Springfield trigger pack. Makes a BIG difference.

 

[Z-Michigan]

On the topic of JLD rifles, they are indeed built on HK tooling, but that in itself is not an absolute assurance of quality. There are many JLD rifles out there with barrels that will only feed and fire Federal American Eagle ammo. The HK community jokingly refers to them as being chambered in AE.

My PTR seemed well made and functioned fine with Brown Bear and DAG surplus. I can't remember if I ever fed it any good stuff. But...

As someone who regularly shoots HK pattern rifles, I will be the first to say that for the needs of the majority of North Americans, a quality manufacture AR15 outpaces the roller-locked rifles from the perspectives of ergonomics, speed, sustainability and modularity (although one can do a lot to custom tailor an HK type rifle). If you don't have a nice AR yet, get one of those first.

I traded my PTR because apart from being reliable it was a disaster in all other ways. The recoil was brutal, close to a 12ga - I understand that this is not typical, but that was my experience. I didn't like the sights. The ergonomics and charging handle location didn't work for me even though I'm 6' tall with a 36" sleeve length. I got a relatively good trigger by PTR/HK91 standards but it was still comparable to the worst AR triggers, which in turn are among the worst common rifle triggers. Mag changes were awkward with the clumsy pushbutton release that HK never intended (created to meet ATF requirements, look it up). Reassembly of the bolt carrier was difficult and frustrating. Overall I decided it had nothing going for it apart from looks. You are basically paying FAL or high-end AR15 money for a gun that compares to an AK, except the AK actually has better ergonomics and costs 1/3-1/2 as much to shoot. The FAL is in a different class when it comes to ergonomics, durability, and engineering.

Also, most of my spent brass was last seen passing the orbit of Saturn, but I understand that is considered a feature rather than a defect.

 

[vaupet]

Do not forget the StG 57, as a battle rifle

 

[Onmilo]

I have owned my PTR-91 since they were first introduced.
It has shallow flutes as indicated by the marks on the fired cases but shoots all commercial loads up to 180 grain, good quality surplus,(It LOVES Portugese mil-surp), and steel case ammo with no problems.
The rifle is also extremely accurate, more so than original G3 rifles and H&K commercial 91 rifles.

The H&K/PTR are roller locked blowback actions and will handle heavier loads without issue such as caused shooting commercial stuff in a non adjustable gas regulated battle rifle.

Having owned and shot numerous 7.62X51 rifles over the years I now own but five,
Three M1As
A rebarreled Match Grade M1 Garand
& my PTR91

"Battle Rifle" indicates a weapon firing full power ammunition
FN49
K98
M1 Garand
M14
H&K G3
AR10
Dragunov
SVT38 & 40
on and on are "Battle Rifles"

"Assault Rifles" are chambered for intermediate cartridges
M16
M4
AK47/AKM
AK74
CZ-52 & 57
SKS
StG90
all of these weapons fall under the term "assault rifle"

 

[boricua9mm]

I traded my PTR because apart from being reliable it was a disaster in all other ways. The recoil was brutal, close to a 12ga - I understand that this is not typical, but that was my experience. I didn't like the sights. The ergonomics and charging handle location didn't work for me even though I'm 6' tall with a 36" sleeve length. I got a relatively good trigger by PTR/HK91 standards but it was still comparable to the worst AR triggers, which in turn are among the worst common rifle triggers. Mag changes were awkward with the clumsy pushbutton release that HK never intended (created to meet ATF requirements, look it up). Reassembly of the bolt carrier was difficult and frustrating. Overall I decided it had nothing going for it apart from looks. You are basically paying FAL or high-end AR15 money for a gun that compares to an AK, except the AK actually has better ergonomics and costs 1/3-1/2 as much to shoot. The FAL is in a different class when it comes to ergonomics, durability, and engineering.

Interesting observations. HK rifles seem to be a love 'em or hate 'em affair, with very few sitting on the "Meh" team. I actually love HK diopter sights. They are much more effective for me than AR irons. My eyes focus extremely well when using them and the hooded front sight always made more sense to me than having two similar height "ears" off to the sides. The selector is workable for me, and if the rifle is carried, the stock is to rest outside of the shooters forearm to allow better access to the selector (with non-Germanic thumbs). The mag release isn't as fast or convenient as an AR in either paddle or push-button form, but it comes from a riflecraft style that retains the magazines rather than drop & forget. The folding charging handle leaves a lot to be desired. It is unfortunate that the camming action is needed to unlock the rollers on the larger rifles; an MP5 charging handle would eliminate a lot of user complaints in this area, but it just isn't feasible from the engineering standpoint. Some folks proclaim that you can just slide your palm along the folding charging handle and everything just happens, but that is far from the truth. Unfolding it and getting the leverage to cycle the bolt carrier is much more difficult than it is on the MP5.

HK rifles can be a bit of a love affair, but as much I love owning and shooting roller-locked HKs & clones, my grab and go rifle is a Lightweight Daniel Defense build.