Highway Patrol/State Patrol calibers, Looks like 40 S&W is #1

[Runningman]

Problem with comparing expensive designer ammunition such as Double Tap and others is they sometimes change bullet brand they use. So are the tests with current loaded ammunition, bullets, velocity valid? Seen where some Double Tap ammo is now using Montana Gold bullets. Seems like just about all police departments stick to the big four such as Federal, Speer, Winchester, Remington.

 

[LeonCarr]

I believe Kansas Highway Patrol shoots the .45, a Glock 21 I believe.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[easyg]

I just went to Winchesters website. Great place. I took a looksee at 147 grain 9mm and 180 grain 40. Both move at the same velocity.

Which loads did you look at?

I just went to Winchester's site and looked up the 180g .40 JHP and compared it to the 147g 9mm JHP (not silver tips or PDX1, just standard JHP)....

180g .40
mv = 1010 fps
me = 408 ft. lbs.

147g 9mm
mv = 990 fps
me = 320 ft. lbs.

Nope, not the same velocity.
And definitely not the same energy.

 

[easyg]

Let's also look beyond the numbers on paper...

From all that I have heard, read, and seen, the 9mm does not perform well on the streets at quickly putting down human aggressors.
Not nearly as well as the .45, the .40, the .357Sig, and even the .45Gap.

The 9mm para is a good self defense round, just not as good as the others listed.
Which is the reason police agencies have mostly abandoned the 9mm in favor of more effective calibers.

 

[Runningman]

I believe Kansas Highway Patrol shoots the .45, a Glock 21 I believe.

OK thanks, added it.

 

[valorius]

What are you talking about?

There is no such thing as a +P .40S&W load.

Don't you realize that you are comparing 9mm +P loads to standard .40 loads?


Think about it this way....

Every 9mm para handgun can shoot 9mm para caliber ammo.
But not every 9mm para handgun can shoot 9mm para +P ammo.
This is because 9mm +P ammo is higher than standard pressure 9mm ammo.

There are no .40 handguns that I'm aware of that cannot shoot any .40 ammo.
This is because there is no such thing as .40 +P.

Again, post some standard pressure non +P 9mm ammo stats that compete with the .40S&W.

Easy

There is technically no such thing as a SAAMI rating for .40S&W +P. DT loads their rounds to near SAAMI rated max for all calibers.

SO the DT rounds are THE HOTTEST ROUNDS in .40 on the market, energy and velocity wise....and they still cannot outperform 9mm.

Sheesh.

 

[valorius]

The Coast Guard recently adopted it (P229DAK), and Army special forces (CAG) are using it in the Glock 22.

The Glock is not a US militarily approved weapon, as in it has never completed and passed any trials (that i am aware of), nor is it type classified.

Those are personal weapons.

The Coast Guard is not a branch of the US military either, btw.

From all that I have heard, read, and seen, the 9mm does not perform well on the streets at quickly putting down human aggressors.

Really? That's why every single military organization on earth uses 9mm as their primary pistol cartridge?

Because it does not perform well in real combat?

Hmmm.

 

[Boris bush]

Which loads did you look at?

The Ranger T series.

go to this link and there will be comparison boxes. Choose the first 9mm non +P, it will be a 147. then pick the 180 40. They both move out at 990fps.

Now keep in mind what I said about sectional density. Move a 147 9mm to the same velocity and you get better performance.

http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf

I copied and pasted with the comparison but I dont know if it will only take you to the tool or not. If the rounds are there than bonus.

Now what I ask of you is where you are getting this superior performance from when the 9mm is brought down to standard pressure compared to the 40. It is not there.

 

[valorius]

9mm+P+ equals the performance of the hottest .40 rounds you can buy. I posted the tests that prove it. Expansion= the same. Penetration= the same.

The 9mm, velocity rating for velocity rating, has less recoil impulse(esp in the lighter bullet loads), it's cheaper, and you can put more in the same sized gun.

.40 offers nothing over 9mm.

 

[Boris bush]

Ya know, I just looked at all the comparisons of them two rounds and the 40 only expanded more in the heavy clothing. In the other tests the 9mm expanded more and 9mm penetrated more in every instance.


I scared my kid building legos I laughed so hard. So is 40 still all that. Even on paper it is lacking. This just gets better and better...

 

[Boris bush]

40 offers nothing over 9mm.

In every instance I can see it only offers less performance with less ammo on board.

Oh wait!! I got it. It makes one feel more like a real man with all that extra recoil and larger time between splits....

 

[Runningman]

Let's also look beyond the numbers on paper...

From all that I have heard, read, and seen, the 9mm does not perform well on the streets at quickly putting down human aggressors.
Not nearly as well as the .45, the .40, the .357Sig, and even the .45Gap.

That kind of what I'm wondering here. The bottom line is to stop the firefight ASAP, with the good guy the winner. Certainly many State Police agency's have real world data on what works well and what doesn't work so well to help in their selection?

More than a few of these State Police have used the 9mm in the past and now no longer do so.

 

[valorius]

If they really wanted the round that had the best single shot % chance of stopping the fight right here and now, they'd all use .45ACP, wouldn't they?

No 9mm or .45 is going to get 1" expansion like the top .45 loads come very close to delivering.

230gr Doubletap+P (Gold Dot)= 15.25" penetration, .95" expansion.

Good luck finding a .35-.40 cal bullet that will do that.

IMO, the 13+" penetration and .70 cal expansion offered by many top 9mm loadings- loadings which match the .40S&W in gel tests- are sufficient, but clearly, if you want "one shot stops", the .45 has no peer.

 

[saturno_v]

The hottest 9mm loads compete well with .357 magnum

Utter unadulterated nonsense!!

A full house SAAMI compliant 357 Magnum can throw a 158 gr. pill with a ME of ~700 ft/lb........much more energy with a higher weight and SD of any 9mm +P can possibly dream of...

And before you say anything, I own 9mm, 40 S&W and 10mm but not a 357 Mag.

As for practical stopping potential, 9mm, 40 and 45 are basically the same.....as I said before if you think otherwise I own a bridge in New York to sell....

 

[cgjane]

I used to have a G23, now have consolidated to just 9mm/45acp.

One thing I was surprised was how EASY it was to find 40sw ammo, compared to 9mm/45acp @ Walmart (target ammo).

As for the caliber wars, it is about SHOT placement anyways. Whichever ammo and pistol you are comfortable and competent with WINS.

 

[Boris bush]

More than a few of these State Police have used the 9mm in the past and now no longer do so.

Back in the days before the internet I followed the 40 fad. A local SO got into a big firefight almost the instant they got the newfangled 40s. It was the worst failure of a shootout in their history to this day and that was 17 years ago. They had a number of bad shootings with the 40s. Now this was back in the day when ammo technology was just starting to improve. So ammo might have been the reason why and todays 40s are much better, but then so are 9mm and 45. In three short years and the worst shooting outcomes they ever had they went to 45s and the tax payers had to pony up the $$ to do it, again.

The shootout resulted in 19 hits on a guy that walked into his trial. They never had that problem with the older weaker less hyped less snazzy 9mms. FWIW they are happy with the 45s they still carry today......

40 is in no way an improvement over any 9mm or 45 load. The only thing it does is put the 10mm FBI load into a shorter case that fits a 9mm framed gun. Thats it. It is not the be all end all. It is just another choice of service caliber that does no better or worse than what was already available at that time....

 

[easyg]

The Ranger T series.

Well here's a direct comparison link for you..

http://www.winchester.com/Products/le/handgun-ammunition/ranger/t-series/Pages/default.aspx

go to this link and there will be comparison boxes. Choose the first 9mm non +P, it will be a 147. then pick the 180 40. They both move out at 990fps.

Now keep in mind what I said about sectional density. Move a 147 9mm to the same velocity and you get better performance.

Yep, both of those loads move out at 990 fps.
But the .40 delivers significantly more energy to the target:

180g .40 muzzle energy = 392 ft. lbs.
147g 9mm muzzle energy = 320 ft. lbs.

You can talk cross sectional density all day long, but the 147g 9mm load has a dismal reputation in real life shootings.



It's not surprising that so many law enforcement agencies have abandoned the 9mm para.
It's just not as effective as other calibers that are just as easily shot and controlled.

 

[Boris bush]

One thing I was surprised was how EASY it was to find 40sw ammo, compared to 9mm/45acp @ Walmart (target ammo).

Lots of people own them, but I doubt many shoot them as much as 9mm or 45 shooters shoot their guns. Only one guy I work and shoot with has a 40 and he is trying to sell it......

 

[easyg]

I scared my kid building legos I laughed so hard.

You seriously laughed so loud you scared your kid just from reading ballistics stats on a gun forums???

 

[valorius]

Utter unadulterated nonsense!!

A full house SAAMI compliant 357 Magnum can throw a 158 gr. pill with a ME of ~700 ft/lb........much more energy with a higher weight and SD of any 9mm +P can possibly dream of...

Is it? Does anyone use 180gr full house 700fpe magnum loads for defense? Ah, no they do not.

They do use .357 magnum 110gr for defense though. 115gr+P+ has MORE muzzle energy than Federal factory 110gr .357 magnum loadings.

They do use .357 magnum 125gr for defense also, it is the "ultimate" stopping round in many peoples opinion. It propels its 125gr slug to 1450fps. The best 9mm+P+ round propels a 115gr bullet to 1415fps.

Is there any real difference between the two? Not really, no.

In terms of defensive ammunition, 9mm+P+ is .357 magnums equal, it's pretty simple.

As for practical stopping potential, 9mm, 40 and 45 are basically the same.....as I said before if you think otherwise I own a bridge in New York to sell....

I'd like to buy that bridge Alex, because clearly a single .45 that is opening to .95" and penetrating 15.25" is going to do more damage than a single .40 or 9mm, both of which are penetrating 14" and which have .70 and .66 expansion respectively.

 

[Boris bush]

But the .40 delivers significantly more energy to the target:

But but but but but but but but. We butt it all day long. If you in anyway think energy in a pistol round is a killing factor, then you need to learn a few more things. Penetration is what kills when it comes to pistol rounds. The 1986 FBI shootout is (kinda) proof.
9mm that expands MORE and penetrates MORE will do more damage.

I will now ask you a question (again) show me where a 40 really beats a 9mm when similar sectional density projectiles are shot at the same velocity. 147 9mms and 180 40s are the closest you will get. Drive them to the same speed and the 9mm will penetrate just a tad more due to the slightly (very) better SD. As in the case of the same projectiles by Winchester, the 9mm WILL do better.

I have given pretty good information to backup what I say. lets see some real information you can fall back on. Until then it will be nothing more than a hyped up round.

Just so you know, I am not bashing the 40. I am just trying to show that it is all hype, smoke and mirrors flashed in peoples faces 20 years ago in them glossy rag pages. It will work as good as a 9mm. It in no way shape or form is better.

 

[Boris bush]

You seriously laughed so loud you scared your kid just from reading ballistics stats on a gun forums???

I was not laughing at the content of the post if that helps any..

 

[saturno_v]

Is it? Does anyone use 180gr full house 700fpe magnum loads for defense? Ah, no they do not.

They do use .357 magnum 110gr for defense though. 115gr+P+ has MORE muzzle energy than Federal factory 110gr .357 magnum loadings.

They do use .357 magnum 125gr for defense also, it is the "ultimate" stopping round in many peoples opinion. It propels its 125gr slug to 1450fps. The best 9mm+P+ round propels a 115gr bullet to 1415fps.

Is there any real difference between the two? Not really, no.

In terms of defensive ammunition, 9mm+P+ is .357 magnums equal, it's pretty simple.

Do not play with words and definitions......I do not care what wimpy 357 Mag loads people use in their scandium 1" barrel pocket revolvers...you said that a 9mm +p "compete well" a 357 Mag....and I say not in this planet....not a REAL 357 Mag....

 

[valorius]

180g .40 muzzle energy = 392 ft. lbs.
147g 9mm muzzle energy = 320 ft. lbs.

Which means nothing when the 9mm bullet penetrates just as deep and opens just as wide.

By the way, you can get 9mm 147gr+P ammo that produces 420fpe of energy from a couple different companies.

You can talk cross sectional density all day long, but the 147g 9mm load has a dismal reputation in real life shootings.

On what planet? Many 9mm loads have an excellent reputation for stopping power.

Fed 9BPLE+P+ is but one of many examples.

 

[valorius]

Do not play with words...I do not care what wimpy 357 Mag loads people use in their scandium 1" barrel pocket revolvers...you said that a 9mm +p equal a 357 Mag....and I say not in this planet....not a real 357 Mag....

Clearly, i was speaking in defensive ammunition terms- this is a defensive ammunition thread.

CLEARLY in the .357 magnums upper end it leaves 9mm in the dust, but virtually no one uses full house heavyweight .357 magnum rounds for defense.

So, far from being "playing with words", i was stating a simple fact.

9mm+P+ produces energy and velocity levels very comparable to .357 defensive ammunition loadings.

If the 9mm was as effective as the .40 (or the .45, .357Sig, or .45Gap) then more agencies would still be using them today.

To the best of my knowledge, every military force on earth uses the 9mm parabellum cartridge for their primary pistol caliber.

Every. Single. One.

Why are so many police agencies choosing .40?

Marketing.