Highway Patrol/State Patrol calibers, Looks like 40 S&W is #1

[Cards81fan]

Oklahoma Highway Patrol uses the .357 Sig (in a 226, for what it's worth). They moved from .40 a while back.

 

[saturno_v]

Clearly, i was speaking in defensive ammunition terms- this is a defensive ammunition thread.

CLEARLY in the .357 magnums upper end it leaves 9mm in the dust, but virtually no one uses full house heavyweight .357 magnum rounds for defense.

So, far from being "playing with words", i was stating a simple fact.

9mm+P+ produces energy and velocity levels very comparable to .357 defensive ammunition loadings.

I would not even call "357 Magnum" the regular Remchesteral 357 loads downloaded on purpose to be fired in toy revolvers...it's like comparing a 45-70 Trapdoor loadings with the nuclear ones..

They were created basically to offer 9mm or 40 S&w like performance in a small pocketable wheel gun....personally I would never have created them....small pocket revolver are ok with just 38 Special +p

You can still buy personal defense full power 357 Mag loads (JHP bullets) from Double Tap, CORBON, Grizzly Ammo, Buffalo Bore, etc......trust me you do not want to be at the wrong end of a Colt Python, S&W Mod 27 or a Ruger GP firing these....

 

[easyg]

If you in anyway think energy in a pistol round is a killing factor, then you need to learn a few more things.

And if you really think that the energy of a round is not a factor in the lethality of that round then there's not much point in talking to you.

How lethal is a bullet with no energy?

Not lethal at all, unless a person swallows it and chokes to death.

 

[Cards81fan]

I personally think .40S&W offers absolutely nothing over 9mm or .357 Sig. It is probably one of the greatest marketing successes of a modern product that fills no particular role that i can think of.

While I don't vehemently disagree with this, your timeline is incorrect. Remember the .40 was offered before the .357 SIG. Therefore, I have to say you have your calibers reversed - the .357 offers little improvement over the .40 (aside from improved feeding - though I have had 0 FTF in any .40 I have fired from Glock, Springfield, S&W, SIG).

Logically following your statement and then factual timeline of the calibers' release, BOTH the .40 and .357 are thus superfluous when we have the 9mm and 45. I can understand that statement, although I do primarily own and shoot .40.

 

[valorius]

Well every one else calls them .357 magnum.

The fact is that the penultimate .357 magnum defensive load of all time, the "legend" of the caliber, the 125gr SJHP produces only 35fps more velocity than DT 115gr+P, it produces only 65 more fpe of energy, and it penetrates less gel and expands to a smaller diameter than aforementioned DT loading.

In the defensive world, 9mm+P+ is every bit the equal of .357 magnum defensive ammunition.

While I don't vehemently disagree with this, your timeline is incorrect. Remember the .40 was offered before the .357 SIG. Therefore, I have to say you have your calibers reversed - the .357 offers little improvement over the .40 (aside from improved feeding - though I have had 0 FTF in any .40 I have fired from Glock, Springfield, S&W, SIG).

Logically following your statement and then factual timeline of the calibers' release, BOTH the .40 and .357 are thus superfluous when we have the 9mm and 45. I can understand statement, but I do primarily own and shoot .40.

I agree about the .357 Sig as well, though pushed to it's limits, it does seem to offer slightly better performance than either .40 or 9mm, but again, that's pushed to it's limits. A .357 sig pushed to it's limits has a LOT of recoil.

And if you really think that the energy of a round is not a factor in the lethality of that round then there's not much point in talking to you.

How lethal is a bullet with no energy?

Not lethal at all, unless a person swallows it and chokes to death.

Many experts are of the opinion that kinetic energy at pistol type levels is a non factor in the wounding process.

This is a pretty common view, actually.

Even if you want to compare energy, the 115gr DT+P 9mm puts out 515fpe of energy, which is definitely into .357 magnum territory, energy wise.

 

[CoRoMo]

...virtually no one uses full house heavyweight .357 magnum rounds for defense.

I don't know anyone who doesn't. I certainly do. Why would anyone use neutered ammo to defend themselves?

 

[Runningman]

Oklahoma Highway Patrol uses the .357 Sig (in a 226, for what it's worth).

OK, Thanks!

 

[saturno_v]

In the defensive world, 9mm+P+ is every bit the equal of .357 magnum defensive ammunition.

Again, define "personal defense world".....I suspect you mean Federal, Winchester or Remington??

Here you go, 125 gr. jacketed hollow point personal defense load from Double Tap

710 ft/lb ME out of a 4" Ruger GP-100

 

[Boris bush]

And if you really think that the energy of a round is not a factor in the lethality of that round then there's not much point in talking to you.

How lethal is a bullet with no energy?

Not lethal at all, unless a person swallows it and chokes to death.

If all you are going to do is talk, then yes there is no point. Instead give me some definitive proof of what you claim. Because as of right now you have presented none. Only claims. Claims prove nothing. I could claim the Smith&Gaston Sigma is the best gun ever made because its a smith built like a Glock with some American lines added to it. It will still only be a claim. It proves nothing.

Yes the 40 is as good as the 9mm. Yes a 9mm carries more ammo on board the same sized pistols and yes the 9mm has more control. That must mean the 40 is better, I got it now....

 

[easyg]

To the best of my knowledge, every military force on earth uses the 9mm parabellum cartridge for their primary pistol caliber.

Every. Single. One.

Why are so many police agencies choosing .40?

Because those police agencies don't have international agreements and treaties with other police agencies around the world on what handgun caliber to use.
And since very few of those police agencies will ever go to war together, as allies, against a common enemy, they need not be concerned with the logistics of supplying multi-national forces with a common caliber.

But surely you knew this, right?

 

[valorius]

I don't know anyone who doesn't. I certainly do. Why would anyone use neutered ammo to defend themselves?

I guess you've never heard of the popular "personal defense" and "reduced recoil" .357 loadings that are so popular?

No one i have ever met either uses or recommends 180gr .357 for defense. Most would also recommend against using full house loads because of excessive recoil concerns as well.

The legendary .357 mag is the 125gr at 1450fps, which is only slightly more powerful than 9mm+P+ 115gr at 1415fps.

The two calibers are equals in the defensive world.

Again, define "personal defense world".....you mean Federal, Winchester or Remington??

Here you go, 125 gr. jacketed hollow point personal defense load from Double Tap

710 ft/lb ME out of a 4" Ruger GP-100

And it penetrates LESS and expands LESS than the top 9mm loads from DT...while recoiling far more.

Double Tap 9mm

124gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1310fps - 13.25" / .70"

DoubleTap .357 Magnum (velocity/penetration/expansion)

125gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1600fps - 12.75" / .69"

So all that recoil and blast is getting you what...exactly?

LESS performance than 9mm.

 

[easyg]

I agree about the .357 Sig as well, though pushed to it's limits, it does seem to offer slightly better performance than either .40 or 9mm, but again, that's pushed to it's limits. A .357 sig pushed to it's limits has a LOT of recoil.

Actually, it can easily be debated whether or not the .357Sig offers anything over the .40, but both are more effective than the 9mm.

And the .357Sig does not have a LOT of recoil.
It's easy to shoot even from a sub-compact Glock 33.

 

[jleyring]

Wisconsin State Police

It was put under 9mm and 40S&W. Do they use both or just a typo. Either way i think 40 is a great caliber for police to use. You can load them to hit more like a 45 can fit more into the clip. The argument that I have heard from a police officer was that 9mm wasnt cutting it when they had a person who was hoped on drugs and 9mm didnt have enough knock down power. So they went with the 40 due to it having more knockdown power then the 9mm but easier to handle then the 45, plus the extra rounds a 40 can hold. Just what I was told by an Idaho State Police officer. Heard very simialer story from and Oregon Police officer also.

 

[saturno_v]

Who tested these?? I find impossible that you get less penetration and less expansion...somehow energy has to go somewhere....

 

[valorius]

Because those police agencies don't have international agreements and treaties with other police agencies around the world on what handgun caliber to use.
And since very few of those police agencies will ever go to war together, as allies, against a common enemy, they need not be concerned with the logistics of supplying multi-national forces with a common caliber.

But surely you knew this, right?

Ah, so it's not possible that EVERY military force on earth uses 9mm because it's, you know, a good cartridge that's been proven in about, oh, 1000 different wars in the last century?

That could never be it.

Actually, it can easily be debated whether or not the .357Sig offers anything over the .40, but both are more effective than the 9mm.

You keep repeating this even though i've shown you stats which show the 9mm equals the .40 in gel tests.

Why, i do not know. I suspect you are married to your favorite cartridge.

And the .357Sig does not have a LOT of recoil.
It's easy to shoot even from a sub-compact Glock 33.

Please read my posts if you're going to respond to them. I said "Full house" .357 sig (as in max pressure such as the stuff DT sells) kicks a lot. Because it does.

Who tested these?? I find impossible that you get less penetration and less expansion...somehow energy has to go somewhere....

It's all posted in page 1 of this thread. But i'll repost it again for you:

corey006
April 13, 2007, 10:01 AM

Here are official gelatin results for all of the DoubleTap loads!

All of these tests were done using 10% ballistic gelatin provided by Vyse gelatin using all FBI protocols and 4 layers of denim and two layers of light cotton T-shirt in front of the gelatin.

DoubleTap 9mm+P Penetration / expansion

115gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1415fps - 12.00" / .70"
124gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1310fps - 13.25" / .70"
147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.00" / .66"

DoubleTap .40 S&W

135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72"
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70"

DoubleTap .357 Sig

115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 12.25" / .71"
125gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1450fps - 14.5" / .66"
147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1250fps - 14.75" / .73"

DoubleTap .357 Magnum

125gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1600fps - 12.75" / .69"
158gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 19.0" .56"

DoubleTap .45ACP

185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-269234.html

 

[easyg]

Yes the 40 is as good as the 9mm. Yes a 9mm carries more ammo on board the same sized pistols and yes the 9mm has more control. That must mean the 40 is better, I got it now....

So you don't believe that the .40 makes a bigger hole and destroy more tissue than the 9mm, all other things being equal?

Surely you're not trying to deny that 10mm is greater in diameter than 9mm?

 

[hardworker]

I really think the 9mm vs 45/40/357 war boils down to a "metric vs standard" cartridge name battle. If 9mm was called 357 auto I'd be willing to bet a large number of caliber war threads wouldn't exist. Notice how this thread has gone from a free for all to "9mm vs everything else"

 

[saturno_v]

However, do not get me wrong..I love my small KT P-11.....it goes with me every day...

 

[easyg]

Ah, so it's not possible that EVERY military force on earth uses 9mm because it's, you know, a good cartridge that's been proven in about, oh, 1000 different wars in the last century?

That could never be it.

Have you ever served in the military?

I have.

And no, the 9mm FMJ, like the ones the military uses, is not a good cartridge.
And no, it has not been proven in 1000 different wars.
Handguns play an insignificant role in wars.

On the other hand, for police, the handgun often plays the most significant role in his survival.
Which is why the vast majority of police have rejected the 9mm.

 

[valorius]

Yep, i've served in the military.

US Army infantry. I qualified expert on the M9 Beretta and on the M1911A1 Colt in my day.

The 9mm has been proven in more combat and more battles and more gunfights than any other pistol round on earth, and yet it is still BY FAR the #1 military pistol cartridge of all time, and used by every single military force on earth.

It is also the most popular police cartridge on earth, and most likely, the most popular self defense cartridge on earth too.

9mm is a magnificent cartridge for all defensive applications because it does so much so well.

 

[easyg]

I said "Full house" .357 sig (as in max pressure such as the stuff DT sells) kicks a lot. Because it does.

There is no such thing as "full house .357Sig" loads.
Just as there is no such thing as +P .40 loads.

I wonder, have you even ever shot a .357Sig pistol????
They don't have much more felt recoil than a .40 or a 9mm+P.

 

[CoRoMo]

I guess you've never heard of the popular "personal defense" and "reduced recoil" .357 loadings that are so popular?

You are horrible at guessing. Couple that with the other questionable comments you've made, and the statements you've had to back-peddle from in order to qualify, I'd say your credibility needs some damage control.

 

[saturno_v]

Have you ever served in the military?

I have.

And no, the 9mm FMJ, like the ones the military uses, is not a good cartridge.
And no, it has not been proven in 1000 different wars.
Handguns play an insignificant role in wars.

On the other hand, for police, the handgun often plays the most significant role in his survival.
Which is why the vast majority of police have rejected the 9mm.

As much as I like and respect the 9mm, I have to agree with easyg..

Handguns are more like ornament in the military...not really important or strategic....some European forces in the past used 32 ACP handguns as sidearm.....

Yes submachine guns in 9mm can be very important (and effective) in certain situations....but in that case you have the "spray factor"......to draw a comparison, a 7,62x39 is a lousy grizzly defence round.....however if you give me a full automatic AK vs. a bolt action 458 Lott for big bruin defence I would take the former any time of the day.....

P.S.

I served in the Military and my sidearm was a Beretta 92

 

[valorius]

The term "full house" refers to a cartridge loaded to the SAAMI max pressure levels, or close to it.

Exactly like Doubletap .40 and .357 sig and 9mm ammo is.

Seriously, you do not know what you're talking about. Max pressure .357 sig kicks MUCH harder than 9mm.

 

[Cards81fan]

I really think the 9mm vs 45/40/357 war boils down to a "metric vs standard" cartridge name battle. If 9mm was called 357 auto I'd be willing to bet a large number of caliber war threads wouldn't exist. Notice how this thread has gone from a free for all to "9mm vs everything else"

That's part of it, but the other part is that is smallest round of those listed (in both bullet diameter, weight, and cartridge length).

If we drew the line lower, say .32 ACP, then that caliber would be the target. If we looked at .40 vs .45 GAP vs. .45 ACP .vs 10mm vs .400 Corbon, then the .40 would be he target.

We always prey on the weakest of the options presented. Same thing's going on then .32 thread. There, suddenly the .380 becomes a pocket man-killing rocket (I own and carry a .380 myself... I added the comment for emphasis).



I think we need to kill this thread and let Runningman start over