Holster carry of charged and capped percussion revolvers

[elhombreconnonombre]

I take it that having charged , but uncapped percussion revolvers (and hammer down on an empty chamber) is more of a 20th century safety rule, and that survival outruled such thoughts in the old west, where everyone carried day in day out with a full chamber charged and capped. How common were unintentional discharges back then under such conditions?

 

[Old Fuff]

How common were unintentional discharges back then under such conditions?

It would seem that it wasn't common at all, judging from comments in period literature and newspapers. Usually when it happened it was because a revolver dropped onto a hard floor, falling from a waistband or holster. Holsters in those days usually swallowed the whole revolver except the handle and often had full or half-full flaps. If the cylinder was fully loaded the hammer was rested between chambers. Later six-shooters using metallic ammunition and dependent on a quarter or half-cock notch where nowhere as near as safe.

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^ This. My guess is that the "rule" of an unloaded chamber under the hammer came about post-SAA instroduction and was never the rule for classic cap and ball revolvers.

Hammer down between cylinders is about as safe as it gets.


Willie

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[Noz]

I had always heard that the empty chamber on the "six shooters" was where you put enough money to pay for your funeral. I got curious and rolled a dollar bil to fit in a 41 mag chamber. I fired the 5 rounds and checked the condition of the burial money. No undertaker in the world would have accepted the charred remnants that were left.
I have an 1851 Colt that was made in 1862. It has no pins on the cylinder and no notch in the hammer. I'd rather have the open chamber than trying to depend on a "between the chambers" position.

 

[PRM]

Can't say about history in the old west. But I've been carrying loaded and capped C&Bs since the 1970s with no ADs. I do use the safety pins between chambers.

All of my SAAs are carried with 5 and the hammer lowered on an empty.

 

[Old Fuff]

With no conclusive proof, I believe that most cap & ball revolvers were carried fully loaded in environments or places where sudden action might be expected. The reason being that reloading took, by today's standards, a long time - even when using prepared combustible cartridges. Some even went to the extreme of carrying more then one gun (which is not unknown today) and it seems unlikely under the circumstances they would go forth with cylinders less then fully loaded.

 

[BHP FAN]

Colt had pins and Remington added cylinder safety notches just for fully loaded carry.SAA'a could be carried with a full load by putting the gun on half cock, rotating the cylinder, and lowering the hammer in such a way as to safely place the firing pin between the rims of the cartridges. The first I ever heard of carrying five in a six shooter was in an old Ruger Blackhawk ad. I seriously doubt it was really done in the Old West.

 

[PRM]

Here is a couple of interesting reads on the SAA and its carry.

http://www.gunsopedia.com/Colt_Single_Action_Army

http://www.chuckhawks.com/colt_saa_revolvers.htm

 

[Officers'Wife]

I seem to recall one author that that period talking of a man that carried a navy revolver uncapped for safety ( I believe it was Mark Twain's 'Roughing It') so the idea wasn't completely a 20th century invention. It might be interesting to find an army manual from the civil war or later and see if there is a section on revolver carry. I'll have to put that on my list of things to research if I ever get any time.

 

[Old Fuff]

The first I ever heard of carrying five in a six shooter was in an old Ruger Blackhawk ad. I seriously doubt it was really done in the Old West.

I had been brought up to always have the hammer resting on an empty chamber - with both a Colt SAA or an elderly S&W .38 Military & Police...

And this was well before the Sturm/Ruger Company had been thought of.

As for the Old West:

The January 12th, 1876 Wichita, KA Beacon reported the circumstances of an incident during the night of the previous 9th.

A game of chance was going on in the back room of the Custom House saloon when a revolver slipped out of a player's holster, hit a chair leg on the way to the floor, and discharged. The ball hit the north wall and then went upward toward the ceiling and on the way passed through the gun owner's coat. Fortunately neither he nor anyone else who was present was injured or killed. However the building emptied in record time after the shot was fired.

Who was the gent who's gun went off? Turns out his name was Wyatt Earp (spelled "Erp" in the paper).

 

[StrawHat]

Colt had pins and Remington added cylinder safety notches just for fully loaded carry.SAA'a could be carried with a full load by putting the gun on half cock, rotating the cylinder, and lowering the hammer in such a way as to safely place the firing pin between the rims of the cartridges. The first I ever heard of carrying five in a six shooter was in an old Ruger Blackhawk ad. I seriously doubt it was really done in the Old West.

With a SAA revolver chambered in any of the larger cartridges, there is NO room between the rims for the firing pin. Load one, skip one, load four was accepted before the turn of the last century. Elmer Keith wrote about it in the early books. I believe it was the required way to load and carry by the Cavalry. There are accounts of SAA going boom when the guys were saddling horses and the stirrup would hit the hammer.

Not all Colts had the safety pins, see Noz's comment in response #4.

 

[Berkley]

Colt instructions furnished with the pistols in 1858 called for loading all chambers and putting the hammer on the pins.



OTOH, one modern authority on firearms carry and use says the instructions weren't followed:

The subtleties of
 safe firearms handling
By Massad Ayoob
Cap 'n ball single action revolvers go back to the year 1836, when Samuel Colt patented his first model, the Paterson. All through the years of the Wild West it was understood that the gun should NEVER be carried with a live load under the hammer.

LINK

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^ The above two statements aren't in conflict. You can load all six and still not carry with the hammer resting on a cap.

Ayoob isn't exactly "the" authority on cap and ball either...


Willie

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[dodo bird]

To me the idea of carrying a loaded but uncapped seems more dangerous than capped with the hammer on an empty. I'm thinking of the rare chance of a cigar ash coming to rest on a uncapped nipple.

 

[Crawdad1]

Another interesting part is "and a ball with the pointed end upwards" loading a conical.

 

[PRM]

Ayoob isn't exactly "the" authority on cap and ball either... - Willie Sutton

+1

I've always had an issue when one person's (any person's) blanket statement without any supporting documentation is used to try and trump everyone elses.

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

How amout Col Coults instructions to not use a wad on top of the powder????

 

[CraigC]

Apparently Ayoob missed the history lesson where he would've learned that there was no model called "Paterson" and that Colt's first firearms were not pistols at all. He designed revolving shotguns and rifles before any handguns.

 

[Berkley]

Sorry if I gave the impression I was trying to trump anybody. Just passing along some information that I thought was interesting about the subject under discussion here.

 

[Rom828]

On a side note, my little NAA revolver "the earl" is safely carried with the hammer resting in the notches between the cartridges, as per the instructions included by the maker, the same way I carry my 1858 Remington, fully loaded.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

With a SAA revolver chambered in any of the larger cartridges, there is NO room between the rims for the firing pin.

I can verify that. With a large caliber like 45 Colt, if one attempts to lower the firing pin between rims, there simply is not enough room for the pin to prevent the cylinder from turning. The firing pin will be resting on the bevel of the rims, and will not prevent an outside force from rotating the cylinder to a position where the firing pin is resting on a live primer. I have tried it, the bevel of the rims forces the firing pin back, allowing the cylinder to turn.



It is a different story with smaller calibers, but not large caliber rounds like 45 Colt or 44-40.

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

How about carrying a fully charged and capped cb revolver in a closed flapped holster with the hammer on a pin for a Colt or hammer on a safety notch for a Remmie? I guess youre out of luck for a Le Mat.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Most of the C&B revolvers of the period, at least the Colts and Remingtons, were specifically designed with features to make them safe to carry with all chambers loaded and capped and with the hammer resting between cylinders.

The "only load five" is a modern thing that I believe is a result of rules in Cowboy Action Shooting (CAS). I am not a cowboy action shooter, so I do not follow their rules and do it like they did in the 19th century.

 

[CraigC]

The "only load five" is a modern thing that I believe is a result of rules in Cowboy Action Shooting (CAS).

It's quite possibly a modern invention but I don't think it's 'that' modern.

 

[Mike OTDP]

It's not. Elmer Keith was writing about it in the 1930s.