Home Defense Loads? 12 Gauge

[Mike U.]

That stray lead, and what ever it happens to hit in the end, is your responsibility.

Now this is something I never see stressed enough on various gun forums.

"You launch it, you own it" is a message that should be discussed and stressed more as it is very important.

Especially to members who may be new to the world of firearms. The advent of the new administration has added many thousands of new people exercising their Second Amendment rights. Possibly for the very first time in their lives.

 

[Grey54956]

I have to agree with the #6 or 7-1/2. In my house, engagement range doesn't really surpass 15 feet. At this range, the shot column isn't going to really break up much, and I don't have to worry much about over-penetration. After the first two or three shells, then come the slugs.

 

[Guns and more]

Has anyone ever seen 2 3/4", reduced recoil, #4 buckshot?

 

[rbernie]

This comes up A LOT, and the seach feature is helpful in pulling up these past discussions. Here are a few from tlast six-nine months that I dragged up searching for 'home defense birdshot'.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=381023
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=411995
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=272614
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=377765
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=400845
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=374807
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=369442

At 15 feet, birdshot does not possess enough momentum and energy per pellet to penetrate a human body adequately to disrupt vital biological functions. In short - people ain't birds.

I use low-recoil buckshot.

 

[spudster]

Just use those mini marshmallows in hot cocoa if you are gonna use birdshot.

They come out roasted for that complete camping experience and make the thug think of more innocent times of youth.

 

[Plinkeriffic]

Interesting discussion! I recently joined the ranks of shotgun owners, and so far only for self-defense purposes (not a hunter, but skeet shooting is fun and challenging w/a 18.5” barrel). Any new weapon needs its ammo so I researched the thinking on defense loads.

I personally load slugs in alternating rounds with buckshot or T shot (.20 caliber pellets, lots of ‘em). My thinking is that in close, apparently using #4 buck is just as effective on flesh as 00, with more of ‘em. Now, I decided to go with some steel 3” T shot as well, as you can save some cash and get what is basically just a size under #4 buck. Now, lead #4 buck (.24 caliber) is denser than steel T shot (.20 caliber) by about 30%, which does make a difference shooting at any range. But close in, the increased velocity of steel shot makes up for it. So spend less, get more with some 3” T’s!

(and slugs).

 

[hardluk1]

The defence tv show last not just showed different rounds in sheet rock wall sections .They had 4 wall sections to shot at ,8 pieces of drywall.
A 9mm hardball , when all the way through
A 45 gold dot when though 7 pieces.
Double oo buck when through 7pieces.
Now all you big load guys. How many walls you gona shoot through if you miss.
Bird shot when between 1st and 2nd pieces and stopped and then shot the wieghted dummy at 7 feet and it made a 1" hole and took it to the ground. When all was done they made the point that the bird shot was what you should use inside a houseand was good in real house distances. It was a standard brass 23/4" shot of #7. Now some here like on other sites must not hunt or they would know that not always oo buck but #1 buck in a well patterned gun meaning some one has shot all the brands and sizes will be able to kill deer at 100 yards with most full chock shotguns. Not wound but kill . I grew up hunting sw.fl swamps with shot guns. And anyone that turkey hunts will know that with the right shot and choke tube it will put most every shot in a pie plate at 40 yards. This will be from #6 to #4 more than not. Size of brass has nothing to do with powder if the box said max load, only amount of shot less in the shorter shell. Even more fps can be had with 2 3/4 sheels. TAP round are made to a design for defence but unless you try some of these light loaded ( reduced power)rounds you don't know how it will act in a house setting.

 

[Plinkeriffic]

All the right factors are being mentioned here, I think, but the most salient has to be range. The question, havingbeen asked from a personal defense point of view, has to be considered for antipersonnel at close range.

Optimally, you're looking for a load that penetrates flesh (anything BB or better will work in close) with enough of 'em to maximize your impact. Anything smaller may not penetrate well enough, don't go too big or you blow the arse off the neighborhood. I like T shot because it packs a wallop even with the spread made by a 18" barrel and it's cheaper than buckshot.

-Plink

 

[BhmBill]

I didn't read all the responses, but you guys ought to keep in mind if you load up your shotgun with slugs or 000 buckshot and a guy does break in, you blast him away and paralyze the guy or kill him, he or his family might sue saying your intent was murder because of your choice of ammo. If you use birdshot, something that's less likely to kill, a judge might just throw the case out.

Plus, I doubt 99% of home defense situations would be more than 10 yards apart, and i guarantee if you get blasted with birdshot that far away, it's going to hurt.

I personally have 1 1/8oz 7.5 birdshot loaded (thin walled condo with children living here).

Just stuff to consider depending on where you live.

 

[Lou McGopher]

It depends on your home.

I've got a kid in the house, and people downstairs, so I do worry about over-penetration, but I'm not likely to be aiming the shotgun in either direction.

Birdshot will do a lot of damage to flesh at a short range... even the plastic wad has been seen to cause serious trauma, BUT I wouldn't trust birdshot to penetrate the breast plate or skull unless the pattern was very tight, and I don't know I'd trust it to penetrate much at all through thick clothing. If you're going to use birdshot, expect to use 1-3 rapid followup shots.

Slugs and 000 buck do a lot of damage, but I have next-door neighbors to worry about. The houses are all made of load-bearing brick, so I don't worry about that being penetrated, but several of our windows line-up. I load with #4 buck, which does a lot of damage to flesh, and goes easily through clothing, but will be slowed down more by walls and doors than the 000 would.

You could use one of the larger steel shot sizes, which will do a lot of damage to flesh, but will lose velocity faster than lead, should some of them miss the target. The only concern about that I've heard is that steel shot may be more likely to ricochet.

You could always load up with a couple lighter shells first, followed by something much heavier in case the first two rounds aren't sufficient. Just make sure your gun cycles reliably and you practice rapid firing. It's preferable to have something certain to be deadly in your first shot, but when you have to worry about innocents getting hit, you need to make some sort of trade-offs.

Figure out your most likely lanes of fire, and determine what will be best suited for the job.

Don't worry about slings or pistol grips, or any tactical stuff, except for an LED flashlight on the end. A standard stock lets you fire from the shoulder and from the waist.

Also, practice clearing your house with the shotgun. You need to figure out how to maneuver that thing through the doors and around the corners of your specific floor plan. It needs to become automatic. Once you figure out the best way to move through your house with that gun, practice until you are able to do it in the dark after just waking up.
Sometimes a shotgun is too unwieldy, and you'd be better served with a handgun. Federal makes 000 and #4 buck that will fit in the Taurus Judge.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Then again; if I only had a shotgun for home defense; and depending on my stature; I'd choose a .410 shotgun. It's tough to find; but getting some 000 buck or slug is a great home defense gun. Surpassing a 44 magnum; yet easier for the shooter.

A .410 surpassing a .44 magnum? Since when?

Bird shot when between 1st and 2nd pieces and stopped and then shot the wieghted dummy at 7 feet and it made a 1" hole and took it to the ground.

According to the FBI, a big shallow wound like that isn't good for stopping.

When all was done they made the point that the bird shot was what you should use inside a houseand was good in real house distances. It was a standard brass 23/4" shot of #7.

The FBI reccomends a round be able to go through at least 1 foot of ballistics gelatin. Obviously, you may have to comprimise if you have other people living in the house. However, small birdshot like that should still probably be avioded.

anything BB or better will work in close)

BB probably lacks stopping power, and might not reach anything vital.

I doubt 99% of home defense situations would be more than 10 yards apart, and i guarantee if you get blasted with birdshot that far away, it's going to hurt.

Adrenaline is great at taking away pain, and even if it does hurt, someone determined might still keep shooting. The police don't use birdshot for a reason.

 

[Mike U.]

I didn't read all the responses, but you guys ought to keep in mind if you load up your shotgun with slugs or 000 buckshot and a guy does break in, you blast him away and paralyze the guy or kill him, he or his family might sue saying your intent was murder because of your choice of ammo. If you use birdshot, something that's less likely to kill, a judge might just throw the case out.

Whether or not the BG is terminally wounded or not, his family will attempt to sue you. That is a given of self defense in our modern age. Unfortunately, it goes with the territory. You know, "I'd rather be judged by 12 rather than be carried by 6" and all that.

I disagree with your premise that your more likely to get a favorable outcome from a judge if you use bird shot. The fact of the matter is you will likely lose a lawsuit where you were intending to wound rather than kill (read: STOP) an attacker. And, you will lose big.
You wound and paralyze a BG with bird shot and his lawyer has you over a barrel. You were using ammunition with the INTENT of wounding (thus paralyzing) his client. YOUR intent is directly responsible for his client sitting in a wheelchair for the rest of his natural life. YOU should be made to pay for all his medical treatments, pain and suffering and livelihood that was lost as a direct result of your actions.
Also, proof of your intent is permanently recorded on this forum. It will be researched by the BG's legal team and that fact will come back to bite you on the ass in court. So, there is no using the excuse you used bird shot that happened to be left over in the gun from your last upland outing. If you posted it here, expect to see it again when it's used against you in court.

You are shooting to STOP an attacker. His unfortunate demise is the direct result of his unlawful life threatening actions on you and/or your loved ones. His loved ones pain and suffering over their loss is the direct result of the BG's unlawful actions. In other words, he brought it upon himself.

After you shoot a BG, irregardless of whether you wound or kill him, your only real hope is that it will be judged as a righteous shoot and you will be legally rendered an unworthy target from money grubbing relatives of the lowlife who met his end in a justifiable shoot. If they sue, they will lose big time. Living in a Castle Doctrine state can only help you in this regard.
'nuff said...


Please keep in mind that this is 100% my opinion, which was derived and formulated from information sources I've encountered, whether they are correct or not. I am not a lawyer, never was and never will be. So, my opinion is worth the price paid and no more.
I implore everyone to seek legal counsel on self defense issues within the borders of their state.
Don't go on the word of some guy on an internet gun forum for your legal advice. He may very well be a village idiot disguised as an intelligent person.

 

[Gryffydd]

You know, if a load will barely penetrate sheetrock it sure isn't going to reach anything vital in the human body. I can't believe how many suggestions I see for birdshot when it has been proven over and over to be completely incapable of doing enough damage to the human body to stop an attack. Sure, it won't overpenetrate, but that won't help you when you've shot somebody with it and they yank the shotgun out of your hands and beat you to death with it.

 

[BhmBill]

I'm a firm believer that any bullet can kill. A year or so ago some teens in Pahrump (about 60 miles from Vegas) were playing with a .22 short revolver and one of the teens got shot in the chest. Not only did the lil ol' .22 short stop the teen, he died (before the ambulance got there I believe) from it.

I'd use buckshot if it wasn't for the family spread out all over our 2 story condo. Btw, birdshot is all i've been able to find around here lately, I wouldn't be able to effectively practice with anything but birdshot. I believe in practicing with the ammo you're gonna use to defend yourself with and I do not have the funds to buy ANY ammo right now. It's sad, but I gotta use what I got.

 

[Gryffydd]

I'm a firm believer that any bullet can kill.

No doubt. Unfortunately:
A. Bird shot is not a bullet and is not made up of bullets
B. Killing does not equal stopping in a reasonable amount of time.

 

[76shuvlinoff]

I keep the 870 stoked with one 2 3/4 slug in front of 4-2 3/4 00s. (inna 6 rd magazine, chamber empty) I just figure that that first one can be a bit more surgical if needed and it will probably ruin someone's day, even in body armor.. or behind the fridge. I keep the chamber empty as I have other options, and two large dogs, before I get to the 12 ga.

 

[christcorp]

Too many people forget that you DON'T have to go to the extremes on this subject. It doesn't have to be just 00 buck or 7 1/2 birdshot. That too is a fallacy. Birdshot isn't just 7 1/2. There is 9, 8, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, and 1. Then there;s B, BB, BBB, T, TT, F, FF; Then there's 4 buck; 3, 2, 1, 0, 00, and 000.

That's 23 different sizes. May I make a suggestion. Do a little recon of your House. Figure out the FURTHEST shot you could POSSIBLY take. Consider bedrooms, other people, apartments, etc... Get yourself some different buckshots; then some 7 1/2; 6; 4; 2; and some BB. Then go experiment at your MAX distance with the different loads. You need to practice once in a while anyway. Why not practice and figure out the best shot FOR YOU AND YOUR HOUSE while you're at it?

A 410 3" shotgun with a slug can reach 1800-1900 ft sec and energy of around 750-800 ft lbs. Is it better than ALL 44 mag? No. But it is better than some 44 mag rounds. And it's definitely a lot easier to shoot. Also; a 3" with 5 each 000 buck pellets is also pretty decent.

 

[hardluk1]

Some get it some never will. Most people that are on these site have never hunted or atleast not enought to understand bullet or shootsheel desihn and engry on target with a load.Maybe some should go out to a range and see what different types of shot shells do at different distances to realise that ooo buck could be the worst crap to put in a gun for a given porpose. And the damd fbi said crowd. The fbi has other problems to deal with like shoot'n doors in or threw glass or metal. In most all cases if the bad guy is in our homes it will be under 25 feet when you make a call to shot or not. and i know from to darn many years of hunting that i can put a load of 4 bird highbrass in you at 25 feet with a partern spread of about 1 1/2"wieght 1oz and you will not know if it was buck or bird with enogh energy to pickup what doesn't blow off and set you back 5 feet plus and i will not shot once. What you will have is 60 shot+ in that very small 1 to 2" area that will turn it to liqued or just a hole about 8 to ten" deep. If you do have familly in the house you better be damd sure they don't get up to say dad ,mom i here something and a stray buck kills them two rooms down. I here the same crap about some bullet design's and the crowd that going to use a +p maxed out super duty leo round in your house. I don't know many that train that will shot one shot and wait to see if there die. I will have a very quick second shot at least. If your a hermit live'n in no where america and have no chance of family or friends shown up then by all means pull out the maga 10 ga super amg and blase away and leave it at that. But for the person that has only shot in a field at cans or doves and has no real world knowledge, go get some or read what the people at places like gunsite or thunder ranch say. They train both cops and regular folk.

 

[Gryffydd]

Some get it some never will. Most people that are on these site have never hunted or atleast not enought to understand bullet or shootsheel desihn and engry on target with a load.Maybe some should go out to a range and see what different types of shot shells do at different distances to realise that ooo buck could be the worst crap to put in a gun for a given porpose. And the damd fbi said crowd. The fbi has other problems to deal with like shoot'n doors in or threw glass or metal. In most all cases if the bad guy is in our homes it will be under 25 feet when you make a call to shot or not. and i know from to darn many years of hunting that i can put a load of 4 bird highbrass in you at 25 feet with a partern spread of about 1 1/2"wieght 1oz and you will not know if it was buck or bird with enogh energy to pickup what doesn't blow off and set you back 5 feet plus and i will not shot once. What you will have is 60 shot+ in that very small 1 to 2" area that will turn it to liqued or just a hole about 8 to ten" deep. If you do have familly in the house you better be damd sure they don't get up to say dad ,mom i here something and a stray buck kills them two rooms down. I here the same crap about some bullet design's and the crowd that going to use a +p maxed out super duty leo round in your house. I don't know many that train that will shot one shot and wait to see if there die. I will have a very quick second shot at least. If your a hermit live'n in no where america and have no chance of family or friends shown up then by all means pull out the maga 10 ga super amg and blase away and leave it at that. But for the person that has only shot in a field at cans or doves and has no real world knowledge, go get some or read what the people at places like gunsite or thunder ranch say. They train both cops and regular folk.

1. The FBI recommendations did not come from their need to shoot through windows or doors, or anything else. They came in the aftermath of a shooting which would have ended much sooner had a bullet traveled just another inch or so.

2. It's not about the distance to the target or the size of the spread. Birdshot does not have the energy needed reliably penetrate to vital organs. Period. Sure it'll make a nasty surface wound. But your only hope of stopping an attacker is a psychological stop.

3. If your birdshot could blow the target back 5 feet it would blow *you* back 5 feet when you pulled the trigger.

Don't forget, penetration through muscle and bone and clothing will mean that it'll do even less on a human.

 

[hardluk1]

I give up to many non hunters that just don't get it. Buy your supermag maxed loads and hope you never have to find out. Hope you never have to shot and see what happens down range. Don't believe for a minute the fbi does any testing for just up close and personal. IF you find yourself at 25 yards out and out side shooting then go to your local range and shot a compitition round and see how bad you shoot under no real worry other than to your ego. then maybe down range colateral damage will mean something when you miss the target.

 

[Gryffydd]

OK, I have a theory. Do you play a game with yourself where you have to hold your breath until you're done typing a post? It would explain a lot if you were on the edge of blacking out while typing.

Nobody said anything about "supermag maxed out loads." The simple fact is that bird shot doesn't have the energy or momentum it needs from 6 feet any more than it does at 50 feet.

You cannot break the laws of physics. All of your hunting expertise has apparently not taught you that shooting someone does not make them fly back 5 feet, so I guess I can't expect you to grasp the importance of penetration and the lack of it provided by bird shot.

 

[model of 1905]

For you guys that are worrying about the BG (if he lives) or the BG's family (if he dies) suing you after you shoot him for breaking in your house...
Give me a break!!!

If a BG breaks in my house, he will be shot to the floor and past that if necessary to stop the threat. How is somebody (or their family) that breaks into my home, with me and my family in it, and lives (highly doubtful) going to sue me for shooting an intruder in my home? That's laughable. Find other thngs to worry about before you get killed for freezing when it's GO TIME because you are worrying about being sued!

 

[Big Daddy Grim]

I use federal 2 3/4 00 buck nothing fancy.

 

[model of 1905]

BTW, I use #4 Buckshot for my HD shotgun.

 

[JohnBT]

"Now all you big load guys. How many walls you gona shoot through if you miss."

None. Zero. I have thick horsehair plaster on wood lath walls and those are just the interior walls. The exterior walls are solid brick - 14 inches thick - with about an inch of plaster laid on the inside.

I'm more concerned about ricochets.

John