Home Defense longarm for petite female? (Coach gun?)

[MatthewVanitas]

Greetings. Been puzzling this one over today, thought I'd throw it by the assembled sages.

What is a good home defense weapon for a very petite female? Assuming that a handgun is not the better option to due age or local legislation.

I've mulled over the options, and came up with three possibly reasonable ones:

--Lever-action pistol-cartridge carbine
--M1 Carbine
--Short-barreled double-barrel shotgun (coach gun)

The first two options have the advantage of ammo capacity and less recoil. Plus the M1 Carbine is about the handiest firearm above a .22 rifle. If you're too slight of build for an M1 Carbine, maybe guns just aren't in your future.

I've never seen a particularly small person try and operate a lever-action rifle before, so am unsure how hard it is to keep the weapon balanced while cycling. That's why I left pump-action shotguns out. An 870 is a relatively bulky piece of gear, and I imagine that around 5'2" or so, upper body strength and reach are going to make the pump action somewhat difficult.

Though a controversial HD option, I'm somewhat drawn to the option of a coach gun. I figure it's a relatively small and handy object that doesn't require long arms, is powerful (but power and recoil easily adjusted by ammo selection), and very easy to operate despite lack of familiarity with firearms and/or lack of grip strength. This is assuming that you break in a new one, as new break-actions seem pretty stiff.

It also seems a relatively intuitive weapon for a non-gunny type. Yes, I know that you still need to aim with a shotgun, but the manual of arms is pretty basic for it, and the sight picture pretty simple.

It's been years since I looked into buying one, and it seems that these days Baikal, Stoeger, and Norinco are all back exporting these under various names, in various shapes. Is there any weight advantage to buying the 20ga version, or is it just a 12ga receiver with 20ga barrles? I've seen the nickel plated synth-stock models in shops, and found those interesting, if odd.

To a tinkering type, there's not too much to add to one of these. Maybe a larger bead (tritium? cool!), shell-holder, maybe recoil pad. Though on a small female, the LOP is probably long enough as it is, unless one cuts the stock before adding a pad.

Has anyone explored this option at all? Is there any other really suitable long-arm option that is easily managed by the extremely slight of stature? As always, your collective wisdom is appreciated. -MV

 

[Mikul]

If she's going to use it, she has to WANT to use it. It's her choice.

The .30 carbine is a good choice. The only women who didn't like this gun just didn't like being around loud noises. Like you said, guns aren't for them.

A 20-gauge shotgun is controllable by most women and is still effective.

I think the new Berette storm is a good choice as well. Yes, it's still a pistol caliber, but a 16" barrel makes a big difference and give her an effective range of 100 yards. That's more than you can say about the coach gun.

 

[Preacherman]

I agree that the M1 Carbine is an excellent choice for someone of smaller stature. However, instead of the coach gun, why not look at the Youth model shotguns? Remington and Mossberg make a Youth model in 20ga of their 870 and 500 pump-action shotguns, with a shortened stock and decent length of reach to the fore-end for shorter arms. I've taught a number of women to shoot using these guns, and their success rate has been uniformly high. They're also comparatively inexpensive - you could buy 2 to 3 of either of them for the price of a new-production M1!

 

[hso]

I'd vote for a stamped receiver AK or an AR with entry or collapsable stock over the M1 Carbine. Greater lethality. Little additional weight. Light options.

WRT shotguns - If the person is petite I agree with Peter that a youth model shotgun is a good choice. I'd go with 16 or 20 guage so that a second shot would be possible.

You'll need to allow her to become familiar with the weapon and it should be as fun as possible (fun by her definiton not ours).

 

[CAS700850]

Oh, how I already miss the Marlin Camp Guns! I wish I still had mine, but I "sold" it to a female acquaintance in a moment blinded by love or lust, whichever, I am not sure. If you can find a used one, it may be your best bet, as it will be less expensive than the M-1, easier to shoot than the shotgun, and probably be more fun for a lady to work with. If you get the 9mm version, you can get cheap ammo, and let her shoot until she's comfortable. If the stock is too long, you can cut it down. 10 round mags should be fine, or you can shop the after-market world for pre-ban high caps.

If no luck with this, check out the 20 gauge shotguns mentioned previously in this thread. At home-defense ranges, the difference in 20 and 12 will be mostly academic.

My concern for the lever-action is the situation where she hears a bump in the night, chambers a round, and is now handling a single action, cocked and unlocked rifle. When the situation ends, she either has to unload the entire rifle and re-load the magazine, or else try to carefully lower the hammer over a live round. Not a good option for shakey, adrenaline pumped hands.

Good luck in this endeavor. And, good for you for actually looking for something right for her, and not a new toy for your collection in her name.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

I certainly agree that the person in question would ultimately have to make her own choice.

The Beretta storm is an interesting idea (had considered the HiPoint carbine at the more economical end) but I believe both are verbotten in CA. As are the AR and AK.

Regarding Youth Model pump actions: very interesting idea. I'd heard of, but not seen these before. Are the 16ga and 20ga versions of the 870 notably handier?

Again, part of my interest in the coach gun was the simple manual of arms. That bolt release (forget the proper name) on an 870 confused the heck out of me the first couple times I used one. But with decent training (and if it is lighter than the full size) the youth pump shotgun might have appeal.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

I certainly agree that the person in question would ultimately have to make her own choice.

The Beretta storm is an interesting idea (had considered the HiPoint carbine at the more economical end) but I believe both are verbotten in CA. As are the AR and AK.

Regarding Youth Model pump actions: very interesting idea. I'd heard of, but not seen these before. Are the 16ga and 20ga versions of the 870 notably handier?

Again, part of my interest in the coach gun was the simple manual of arms. That bolt release (forget the proper name) on an 870 confused the heck out of me the first couple times I used one. But with decent training (and if it is lighter than the full size) the youth pump shotgun might have appeal.

 

[Penman]

Remington's 1100 series in 20 gauge has a lightweight field version that's very handy and reliable. The gas action will buffer the recoil, and you can get a buckshot load that should be effective at household ranges. she can start off with target loads for familiarity.

 

[Preacherman]

Matthew, yes, the Youth Models are significantly "handier" than their full-size compatriots. I keep a Remington 870 Youth Model and a Mossberg 500 Youth Model, both in 20ga., as training guns for ladies and disabled shooters, and have yet to find anyone too small or too disabled to handle them with reasonable efficiency. As to the 1100, this is also excellent, particularly the LT-20, but it's longer and bulkier than the Youth Models of the pumps, so it may not be suitable for everyone. Also, you can't cut the stock down as much as for a Youth Model, because of the operating mechanism extending down the stock. Still, if your friend can handle one, it's a good choice.

 

[Scoob]

I love my Stoeger 12ga coachgun and use it for HD. The only problem I see for a small person is recoil. It takes a pretty light load to tame a 12ga.

 

[sm]

Others beat me to it ....

Best kept secret is a 20ga 1100

 

[VaughnT]

I have a Marlin Camp Carbine in .45acp that I bought for just this purpose. Using the same mags as my prefered carry piece, it's very handy. While some might think it a bit heavy at @ 8#, the weight really nullifies the recoil. A heavier 16# recoil spring from Wolff also makes a difference in this regard.

If you can find one in 9mm, grab it up. It wouldn't take much to attach a length of weaver rail to the forend so you could attach a light, and the longer barrel really does increase the range and lethality of the round, whether it's 9 or 45.




Of course, this just whets the appetite for more box-fed carbines. Get that M1c, and an AR15 as soon as the ban goes down. I know I am.

 

[Harry Tuttle]

for the non legislatively restrained, the Bushmaster "Lady" looks like a winner

come Sept 14th, a carbon fiber AR15 with a collapsable stock would be the bees knees

 

[Slingster]

I'm thinking a lightweight semiauto carbine in .22 WRM with hollowpoints might be just the thing for this situation.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

You know, given that the long gun is for a petite female, probably the best consideration would be to find a gun with the most recoil that she can handle and that comes in a carbine format. If she is petite, then obviously she isn't counting on being able to over power an attacker or intruder. She what you want is a gun that will give the best performance that she can handle. A pistol caliber carbine isn't ideal as you can get more significant performance out of rifle calibers. Similarly, something like a .22 WMR. They simply don't provide enough stopping power.

My AR15 with a muzzle brake actually recoils less than my Beretta Storm and you get the benefit of the additional stopping power.

As for youth stocks on shotguns, generally they are only about 1" shorter than standard stocks. The youth stock version will likely do a better job for her over the full-size stock, but the difference in size isn't very big.

Whatever is decided, she needs to get proficient with whatever choice that is made and then practice on a regular basis. By proficient, I mean being able to put rounds on target as needed, know how to work the gun properly, and knowing how to take care of malfunctions.

Also, the decision really has to be hers as she is the one who will be using the gun and because such decisions can be quite personal. If she doesn't like a gun obtained for her without her approval, then she isn't likely to want to practice.

You need to take her out and let her try shooting a variety of guns to see what works best for her. This may mean letting her shoot all your guns, gun you borrowed from another shooter for her to try, or renting guns at a local gun range.

 

[ducktapehero]

I'll throw in a vote for a 357 lever gun with a 16" barrel. Compact, powerful, easy to shoot, fast repeat shots and very reliable. Plus a lot easier to shoot than a shotgun. Someone mentioned about the hammer and shaky hands. A little training should be able to prevent this problem.

 

[mustanger98]

M1 Carbine- light round, light recoil if any, and 15rd capacity. Should be good indoors without overpenetrating walls. User must be familiar with semi-auto's buttons.

Marlin 1894 .357magnum- again, short and light, 9+1 capacity. Still not bad penetration of walls. More power than the .30Carbine round with HPs or SPs. User must get comfortable with leverguns- operation and safety.

870 20guage- User must know buttons and be comfortable with length of pull and reach to slide. Close quarters defensive use may require hipshots to accomodate faster cycling. 870 will not slamfire like Ithaca, but is smoother and safer to the uninitiated than Winchester '97.

SxS 20guage with 18-20" barrels- Load with #3 buckshot. Easy to use well and gives fast follow-up shot- shoulder weapon, look at target, pull triggers (for best results, pull one trigger at a time). A slicked up SxS reloads reasonably fast with practice. Hard to miss at short range, but user should shoot it and get the feel like any other option.

 

[Denko]

I 12/20 gauge youth model pump it my recommendation.It can be left for long periods hammer down on an empty chamber for safety.It is easy for the novice shooter to learn.The coach gun has a couple of problems for the new shooter.You have to remember to cock it under stress.If the gun is not fired ,lowering the hammers safely could prove difficult.A coach gun with internal hammers will be cocked, a potential for a accident and a possible case for spring fatigue over time.An auto will have to be left cocked(not safe) or the operator will have to be competent enough to chamber a round under stress.Will you have time when roused from a deep sleep to check to see if a round was chambered.The pump is easy to chamber and as foolproof a shotgun can be.The military/police seem to favor the pump for reliability.What ever your decision,TRAIN.

 

[mustanger98]

Something I forgot to mention about the SxS shotgun- it's the easiest to check as to whether or not it's loaded. Just flip the lever to the side and break it open and you can see straight through it. If it's not loaded, just dropp two shells in and snap it shut.

I advocate hammerless. Those generally have a tang safety- it clicks forward and back between "safe" and "fire". On a Stevens 311 it automatically safetys itself on opening. You have to remember to take the safety off before firing after your reload. If you make a no-shoot call, remember to safety it.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

You should check out the Beretta Storm. I handled one recently, and it is very ergonomic, lightweight, and generally handy. I think it would work well for someone of small stature.

Plus, you can use Beretta high capacity Model 92 mags in it.

 

[mrstang01]

For low cost, I'd suggest the Kel-tec Sub2k, super little gun.

 

[harpethriver]

I agree with Harry-AR carbine is the ticket. Way too many advantages over a shotgun in this case. Other situations may be different, but it seems like in this one a short barreled AR, tactical light, the largest capacity mags she can handle, and some good training would be the most effective.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Think about HiPoint's M995 9mm carbine, if $$$ are a big consideration- or even if they are not. Ugly as can be, lots of plastic, mooshy trigger but very low recoil, good ergonomics (even for petite folk), simple controls, reliable, plenty accurate and plenty powerful for the purpose. And way under-rated by a lot of people who should know better. This one is likely to be considered more "fun" to shoot by your petite female friend than most of what has been listed so far, I have seen quite a number of people take to it when offered the opportunity on the range. My local dealer sells a good many of them, people without a lot of money to spend, who don't want the hassle of buying a pistol (county purchase permit from the sheriff required for that here) like them as an alternative to a handgun. The return rate on HiPoints there is quite low, almost nil.

Try one- and let her try it too- before you dismiss it out of hand.

http://www.mkssupply.com/carbine.asp

lpl/nc

 

[Kalvan]

Regarding youth-stock pumps, take a look at a Mossberg Bantam 500 in 20 gauge - not only is the stock shorter, the slide comes farther to the rear. Downside is if she short-strokes a pump she'll jam it (seen it happen more than once in 3-gun matches). The Remington 1100 LT-20 would be excellent and can be fited with a youthstock (Speed Feed used to make one). Stoeger makes a 20-ga coachgun. Also, a .410 loaded with slugs or 00B will generally get the job done and is much more controllable than even a 20-ga. Downside of all shotguns is they are primarily sporting arms rather than MIL-SPEC and therefore not particularly drop-safe, so I wouldn't leave it with a round in the chamber. I would also give a thumbs up to the Sub2K as long as she's a right-handed shooter and they're allowed in CA. The Marlin Camp 9 or Camp .45 are also excellent choices. I think a lever .357 would work fine, but with some levers there is a potential for short-stroking and causing a jam - saw it happen with a Win 94 in .44 years ago. The biggest problem with the M-1 Carbine or the Mini-14 or AR is she better be grabbing her electronic ears and putting them on first before she starts bustin' caps.

 

[MrPink]

20 gauge coach gun.

Keep it simple. For a non-gunny type you describe, its a simple manual of arms to remember and master. Light, compact, and even with tactical buckshot, very effective.

Don't buy her the gun you would want. Get her what works for her.