Which is best for home defense, 12ga or .223 carbine?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Having shot a feral pig (about 300lbs) with both .223 and 2 3/4" 9 pellet 00 Buck...

I use a 12 gauge.

Winchester Defender 1300 $239
18" barrel
2 3/4" magnum 00 buck (12 pellets)
8 shot capacity
Surefire forearm $174
6 shot side saddle $32
6 shot but cuff $16

Thats 20 12 guage shells and a flash light in one easily portable package.

Back it up with an H&K USP Compact .40

Regards,
HS/LD
 
Either way you cut it, the shotgun is gonna penetrate more than a .223. I like the .223 for close in work, but would not hesitate to use a shotgun. I keep my HD load as birdshot. My second choice would be a BB load. At the distances we are talking about, those rounds work quite well.
 
Having trained with a defensive shotgun and AR, I go for the latter. My reasons - easier to shoot, more rounds, stopping power is a tossup. I do have both loaded and regard the shotgun as backup.

As far as the legal issues - since GT is down, there was a heavily debate thread on this. Some folks think this is a false worry. Others think there is precedent to worry. From reading it, I think your best defense is to be perfectly clear about when to use a gun. It is an a screwed up situation where you weren't clearly in the right, that being a commando might look bad.

I also think that if you use a shotgun for defensive use, you need to train a bit with it. If you can't take a course, shoot an IDPA side match. It isn't that easy to manoveur with one of these things. It's easy to talk but you should try it. Do you practice clearance drills with your long arm? Pieing?
 
Nothing is comes close to rivaling a shotgun for close quarters combat.

Only thing you may want to consider is what to do if you are facing BGs with heavy body armor (like a SWAT team come to take your guns). In which case a 12 gauge would still be effective if you shot them either;

1. In the head
2. In the side: to the ribs, underneath the armpit, or to the uperarm/shoulder
3. In the Neck
4. In the body with an armor piercing slug like a copper solid or a 3" brenneke.
 
Only thing you may want to consider is what to do if you are facing BGs with heavy body armor (like a SWAT team come to take your guns).
Click to expand...

Hmmm. If you're lucky enough to have any time to prepare before they do the dynamic entry in this case, I think it would be time to forgo the shotgun and break out the M1A's or /06's for the penetrative qualities. Sure a SG will get the first one, but the tactic is to get 4 or 5 guys in real quick with the MP5's and dust you. Sure, you get the first one, but the other 4 get you. If you start slingin 308's at em' you over penetrate and get more than one per shot. You pretty much gotta hold em in the kill zone at the door if you want even a half a chance.

Sometimes I think that 223's may be best employed with supressive fire in mind. Gives the SG'ers and M1A'ers time to work. Still chewin on that one. Flak vests for the flash bangs?

But for plain old run of the mill BG's, SG.
 
I don't know, I was thinking if a SWAT team busted through the front door, and I was aware of it, I was thinking about swooping down the 2nd story bedrom window (have a little awning there so the jump is not bad) and go through the front door behind them.

I do not think standing toe to toe with the SWAT team is a smart idea. Either try to surprise them through manuvering around them, or hiding from them and jumping out in surprise.

Or better yet, see if you can't sneak out of the house and start launching .308 fire at them while their still inside!
 
They always cover all sides of a home before giving the green light for entry. Bad idea to jump out a window. Dead man.

Going toe to toe with a SWAT team is NOT a good idea! But they chose to bring it to you, you didnt call em in! Best to have clever aces up sleeve to slow em down. Best not detailed on internet.:D
 
Maybe I’m biased, uneducated or just stupid…..

I’ll never understand the choice for a .223 over a shotgun for home defense.

Over penetration? How far will that .223 go vs. 00 buck if your shot goes through a window? Under penetration of .223 rounds is very dependent on round choice and barrel length. I have an old house; I’ve done the test.

Temporary Cavity/Permanent Cavity? And your choice is?

9/13 .32cal pellets vs. one higher velocity .223?

Margin of error in aiming while geeked up?

Ease of Use? What’s easier than a pump shotgun?

Maneuverability? My 870 is no longer than my DMS profile AR

Stopping Power? A mythical measurement of firearms effectiveness. Stop it with “Stopping Power†already.

7 rounds in the tube is more than enough for home defense when backed up with a side arm. Give me examples of home invasions with more than 3-4 people. (post links please, or cite references) …and another thing….can anyone give me examples of a home invasion where the BG’s wore armor?

Smoke
 
Mall Ninja Gun Nut Fantasies Aside...

If you go toe to toe with any Swat team or reasonably large force of PD you are going to die....period.

You are not talking about an entry team of 4-6 guys. You are talking about the perimeter officers and all the other ancillary incident people. Not to mention the fact that if it all goes bad they have radios to call similarly minded and armed individuals.

Now if you decide you want to fight and die for RKBA that is your business and everybody will make that decision personally but make no mistakes about it you will die in the process.

May not be a popular thing to say or what people want to hear but thems is the facts. So unless you have an escape tunnel that exits out a few blocks away you are pretty much screwed should the local PD/Military decide you need to be brought in.

Chris
 
But personally, I would think it would be easier to kill one or two parameter guards guarding, say, one of the back doors and escape, rather than facing the full SWAT team + the extra officers out in the front.

Much like Captian Kirk in Star Trek II, I don't believe in the "no win" scenario. There is always a chance, depending on how clever, smart, determined, and just plain ruthless you are.
 
Oh I never said you wouldn't die against the gun grabbers. But to go down swinging is better than laying down to be raped. Of course they'll kill me. Thats no good reason to make it easy for them. Sure, I'll get 1 or 2 or maybe even 4 or 5 if I'm having a good day, then they'll kill me. Any volunteers on who's first through my door?:evil:

Oh my god, they'll kill me, I better give up and beg for mercy.:rolleyes:

Fat chance. Good thing our forfathers didn't hold the same views as you do or we'd all still be speaking english...

With all due respect, officer. :D

There is always a chance, depending on how clever, smart, determined, and just plain ruthless you are.
Click to expand...

Well said. I'd add faith also.
 
For HD go with a Shotgun unless you home extends out to 100 yards. Then its not home defense your worried about. Its trass passing.
 
Home Defense Issues:

Inside the home, a shorty 12ga. Almost any load is deadly.
Outside, the .223 I allus figured to use....but now that I
got my M1a, I'll probably reach for it instead. Ruger p90
goes everywhere.

Fighting JBTs

I'll take my chances in court.
 
mons meg nailed it

20" barrel 12 gauge inside the home

keep the ar (preferably in .308) handy for longer-range threats outside


casual
 
Overpenetration: Most homes have sheetrock interior walls. At close range - like inside a house - even birdshot will blow right through. As will a .223. Or even a .22 rimfire. Face it, anything you're likely to use will overpentrate, unless you cut the power of your load so low it won't work when it has to.

Shotgun terminal performance: at point blank range, buckshot is good, as is large birdshot. (think turkey loads.)

.223 terminal performance: who says you're limited to FMJ for home defense? Why not use a softpoint? Or if you want to be ready for anything, alternate SS109 with softpoints in the magazine, and practice double taps.

Frankly, I think any serious caliber will get the job done. My personal 1st choice would be a short, silenced SMG, but given the going price and the hoops I'd have to jump through to get one & be legal, I have to settle for something else. For "inside" I have a handgun ready, as most rifles and shotguns are too long and bulky to be ideal for my situation.
 
Shotgun. The noise as you rack the slide should scare most people away unless they are deaf or really stupid.
 
Pretty sure he was talking about me.

Chris.

And Kirk cheated if I remember correctly. Rewrote the program or something. ...........course I am not saying that is a a bad thing adapt and overcome and all that.:D
 
Don't bust me for the stats but doesn't the Justice Dept say something like... overall if you are shot you basically have a:

70% chance of surving a handgun round.
30% chance of surving a rifle round.
1% chance of surving a shotgun BLAST. (regardless of gauge or shot in their studies)

Seems that if this is even close to true....
the shotgun takes top honors as the HD weapon of choice

HS/LD
 
Umm, sorry Blain. That was directed towards cslinger and not you. We've since conversed via PM and I realized I misunderstood the tone of his post. He was merely making clear to all that you prolly will die in a scenario like that. Being the passionate issue that it is, I thought I saw him on the other side of the fence and ran with it. :rolleyes: Apologies if warranted.:eek: :D

Back on topic. Get em both. A 12 and a 223. :D
If I lived on a chunk of land I'd prolly use a rifle though. Just preplan safe/fire zones with the fam. I think everybody should walk the property in&out with the presupposition of a beseigement or invasion and look with a critical eye on where the foes would be likely to take cover or concealment from you. Might give rise to some ideas...Nuff said.
 
Prosecuting attorneys would love the idea that someone used an evil, people killing, black, tactical, semi automatic machine assault rifle to defend themselves against his innocent client.

A pump shotgun has the intimidation factor...ain't no worse sound anyone could hear in a dark house than a slide racking on a shotgun. And, if that didn't work, a shotgun, even with birdshot, has the bite to back up that bark at in-your-house ranges. And I think a shotgun would look more like an "average Joe Schmoe blue collar" kinda weapon to the courts.

My .02
 
A pump shotgun has the intimidation factor...
Click to expand...

The rifle also has it's own intimidation factor. Ask the goblin who came knocking on my door one night, looking for my apartment's previous resident.

I wish I had a photo of that guy's face.:what:

bc:)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

I
  • Locked
So what is the end all best home defense caliber...
Replies
14
Views
981
Robert
Robert
Creature
  • Locked
HD in suburban environment: AR15 vs Shotgun
2 3 4
Replies
76
Views
4K
Robert
Robert
N
  • Locked
Home Defense weapon, help me make a decision
2 3
Replies
59
Views
2K
BothellBob
B
B
  • Locked
5.56/.223 for Home Defense?
2 3 4
Replies
79
Views
8K
Robert
Robert
L
  • Locked
Home Defense Choice Pro & Cons
2
Replies
33
Views
2K
Drav
D
Back
Top