Which is best for home defense, 12ga or .223 carbine?

[chaim]

I've been doing a lot of thinking about this lately and I'm curious about where other THR members may be on this issue.

Initially, I was in the shotgun group. Long guns are very forgiving for sleepy eyes or under stress for accuracy. The 12ga is very powerful, especially when loaded with buckshot. When loaded down with birdshot it is still pretty effective and it proves to have less overpenatration issues than most handguns. Also, you can get a quality, brand new, pump-gun for used revolver type prices. However, there are still some overpentration issues with the buck, with bird you lose a lot of stopping power (and needed penatration), and either way there is a lot of recoil and blast.

Now, I'm not totally there but I'm leaning towards a .223 carbine as a perfect home defense gun. It is a rifle caliber so it has a lot of knockdown power. The .223 is a very well designed round for urban fighting so they actually have proven in testing to have less overpenatration than many handgun rounds. They too are long-guns which are very forgiving when tired or under stress for accuracy at home defense ranges. So far, birdshot shotguns and .223s sound pretty comprable, but the .223 has a major advantage in capacity (though it isn't likely you'll need a 20rnd AR mag for home defense, but at home where I'm not likely to be able to retreat I like the ability to overcome most possibilities) and its recoil is far less than any shotgun loading (faster follow-up shots if needed). It also will likely be easier to find someplace to practice with your defense loads with a rifle/carbine, and practice ammo is cheaper, both leading to more skill with your home defense weapon.

I'm leaning towards the .223 but I'm not totally decided. Where do you stand?

I'll probably be buying a 12ga or a carbine for home defense duties in a few months and I could use some help in deciding (both might not be an option before I get to graduate school).

 

[Ala Dan]

One Or More Advesary's-

12 gague- Make mine a Remington 870 Marine Magnum!

Chaim, after careful thought maybe I need to explain
why I choose the shotgun? After year's of pounding
the pavement as a former LEO, I have virtually seen
grown men cut in half with a single blast from a 12
gague shotgun; and it really did not matter what
type of buck-shot was used, so long as it was #4
and above. Likewise, I have seen many folk's KIA
with a blast of 7-1/2 shot to the head area.

So, for short distances the shotgun works well;
especially if you encounter multiple would-be
assailant's. It's my first line of home D' ; backed
up of course with the .45 caliber SIG-Sauer P220
and a 6" Smith & Wesson 686-5 .357 magnum L-
frame. I don't think I can go wrong with either
choice!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

 

[CZ-75]

870, in 12 gauge. Use #4 buckshot if you worry about overpenetration.

 

[Feanaro]

I like shotguns better so I might be biased. I have never heard of someone surviving two 12 gauge buckshots.

 

[Nightcrawler]

The .223 is a very well designed round for urban fighting so they actually have proven in testing to have less overpenatration than many handgun rounds.

Most of the people that have conducted such tests have been people who are selling .223 carbines, like Olympic Arms.

Dave3006, back on TFL, went to an abandoned house and did tests with the mythical fragmenting .223 55 grain FMJ. According to his observations, the FMJ rifle round moving at 3100 feet per second easily slid through mulitple walls.

Who's suprised? I'm certainly not.

You don't have fragmentation in your assailant to worry about. What if you miss? How many walls will your round go through?

12 gauge #4 buck or birdshot won't go through many, and makes a MUCH larger/nastier wound than a single .22 caliber projectile could hope to.

Frankly, I would have to see the results of firing .223 rounds of various types at mockups of walls, plywood, plaster, drywall, and sheetrock, before I'd feel comfortable firing a rifle in my house. Especially since the houses on my block are so close together that my neighbor's house is literally 10 feet away...

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

my mini-14 points better than my mossberg 500. recoil is light, and there are 20 rounds on tap. on the other hand, the 500 is basically a repeating tower musket. tower muskets have panache.

I'd not feel unarmed with either.

 

[glockten]

There's another option: a semi-auto or lever rifle in a handgun caliber.

There are several semi-auto carbines chambered in 9mm, .40S&W, or .45ACP as well as several lever-action carbines firing .38 Spl, .357 Mag, .44 Spl, or .45 Colt. These would serve very well as HD weapons. Recoil with these calibers is negligible and muzzle blast is less than a 12 gauge or .223, with the possible exception of the .357.

A Marlin 1894P loaded with .44 Spl 200gr Silvertips, a Winchester 94AE Trapper with Federal .45 Colt 225gr LHPs, and a Marlin Mdl. 45 with 230gr Hydra-Shoks constitute my HD rifle battery.

 

[Nippy]

I think shotguns have better stopping power. But beyond 25yds I'd go with a carbine type weapon.

 

[Cliff]

A shotgun is what I use for my home defense. Of course I have other options,but considering the layout of my house,who and how many would be in my house at any given time of the day or night,location and distance of my neighbors houses,and other variables I have to consider,a scattergun with buckshot is my first line of defense.

 

[Oracle]

I think that it's pretty much 6 of one, half-dozen of the other. I think that it's good to have both a long gun and a handgun available, though, because a handgun is much more maneuverable and much less likely to be able to get grabbed while moving through a house, if you have to flee. For stationary defense (like in a safe room), I'd choose a long gun. Personally, I use a Mossy 590 and a Glock 17.

 

[FN74]

Hey Oracle, good to see you here! I just signed up.... Sorry to hijack the thread...

 

[280PLUS]

yes, the remington 870 express

but i like 20 gauge instead of 12, not so much blast.

if you are talking exclusively in the house i suggest the YOUTH CUT ,,, the barrel is only 20" and the stock is shortened, it is lighter and much more manuverable (wow, i can't believe i spelled that) in close quarters. also easier for momma to handle if she needs to

i think i paid $169 plus tax for mine

i also suggest birdshot for overpenetration issues, at the short distances involved with shooting in your house, birdshot will have hardly begun to spread and will act more like a slug, this is why i think 12 ga is probably overkill but i'm sure we could all argue about that for a while, you may consider a couple of #4 rounds in the magazine first so if the birdshot dont drop em, you got a little more in store for a follow up if you need it, aim for just below the breastbone

oh, lastly, i understand the most feared sound amongst the criminal element is the sound of a pump action shotgun being racked up, which in itself is quite a deterrent

but lets not forget the lady who chose the .357 cause the guy was in the kitchen and she didn't want to tear up the new counters with the shotgun...

a yappy dog will go pretty far too (about 60 yards if you punt them right) (just kidding, just kidding)

 

[Snowdog]

With my Mossberg 500A and S&B 00B, I believe the firearm would only discharge once before 911 gets a call (unless others that may be involved don't get the not-too-subtle hint).

I have full confidence that a 12ga with the proper loads and responsible training will defuse just about any home-invasion situation.

I've always had a special respect for buckshot.

 

[45King]

What glockten said. I keep a Winchester M94 Trapper AE loaded with Blazer 200 gr. HP .45 Colt at my bedside. My 1991A1 is there to back it up.

 

[12GA]

<------------ with buck shot.

 

[Hazwaste]

Shot vs. Carbine

I keep a selection readily available next to the bed. 20 gauge w/ #3 buck, AK clone w/ two 30 round mags, Kel-Tec P11, and Taurus .357 mag snubby for wife for her defense of our downstairs bedroom (Alamo).

When we've had "things that go bump in the night" I've usually gone for the AK. The shotgun only holds 5+1, and it seems that home invasions over the past few months have involved three or more bad guys. I don't want to be outgunned.

Oh, I forgot, my 13 year old son keeps a Henry lever action .22 w/ 17 rounds upstairs in his bedroom. He's under orders to grab it and his sister, escape out the window, and go to the neighbors' house if he hears gunfighting downstairs.

In short, I like a carbine for home defense. It's also good to have a plan for escape. Much the same as having a plan in case of fire.

 

[Quantrill]

12 Guage, #4 Buck Quantrill

 

[cslinger]

Geeez, Ala Dan.......

Were we seperated at birth or what. 1st we agree on the SIG 220 and now the 870 Marine Magnum.

I am of the different tools for different jobs kind of mindset. I have a carbine with loaded mags ready to go. I have a shotgun with 6 rounds of 00 buck ready to go. I most likely have a handgun on me or very near by.

So that being said. If I hear a suspicious noise but chances are it is from a benign source then it is the handgun.

If I am reasonably sure it is a bad guy then it is the shotgun.

If it sounds like multiple people breaking down the front door then it is the AK/AR and 30 round magazines.

If I could only have one for all around home defense it would be my Marine Magnum hands down. There is just so much versatility of what you can shoot not to mention good capacity, sheer power and the psychological effect of having to stare down the barrel of a 12 gauge. No matter how dangerous an AR15 is, you are still just looking down the barrel of an over glorified .22.

Chris

 

[TRIDENT]

12 guage results in spagetti sauce inside a house. Not good to be on the receiving end of a heavy goose load inside of 25 yards. Not good at all.

 

[Edward429451]

a .223 carbine as a perfect home defense gun. It is a rifle caliber so it has a lot of knockdown power.

This is highly debateable. I've read reports that our military guys have to shoot guys 3 or 4 times to get them to drop. Consider carefully...

I think shotguns have better stopping power. But beyond 25yds I'd go with a carbine type weapon.

This makes perfect sense, but is 25 yds home defense? Maybe if you have an 8000 sq ft house!

I like 223's, I have 3 of em. But if a HD situation cropped up I'm grabbing the Remmy 870.

280plus makes good point on the 20 ga youth model. We got one of those too and its most excellant. BTW 280, my 870 12 with police trade in barrel and factory stock is ever so slightly shorter than the 20 ga youth...

 

[gharsh]

I agree with all the shotgun votes. I have an 870 also and am looking at putting the extended magazine and shorter barrel on it to use as a home defense gun. I'd refit to go hunting. Too much versatility with a pump gun to go with something else. Not to discount the handgun, but I feel the shotgun is a much better choice; especially if you get a pump. As has been said, just the sound might be enough to stop an intruder in his/her tracks.

 

[B Coyote]

This is highly debateable. I've read reports that our military guys have to shoot guys 3 or 4 times to get them to drop. Consider carefully...

These reports are usually because of:

1. Use of the M855 (62grain) 5.56mm load in the M4 Carbine at ranges in excess of 100 meters.

2. See No. 1.

The M855 is slower than the older 55 grain M193, so it reaches the 2600 to 2700fps fragmentation window much quicker. Add in the 14.5" barrel into the equation and you have a much less effective round. In the 20" M16A2 and M249 SAW, the round works as it was intended to. THIS is the best site I've ever seen regarding 5.56mm/.223 ammo questions. Enjoy the read.

I'm a 5.56mm carbine guy. I like the way the carbine handles, points, carries and shoots. I also live in an apartment, so it's going to be a secondary weapon. A handgun is much handier in the confines of my dwelling. If for some reason I NEED a long gun, it's the Bushmaster I reach for.

YMMV,
bc

 

[cordex]

I'm in the carbine camp. I keep an AR with 20 rounds next to the bed. I figure 20 cartridges can get me across the room to the ammo can with the rest of the mags.

Wouldn't feel undergunned with a shotgun, though.

Whichever you are more comfortable with.

 

[MLH]

FN74

Welcome to THR! Feel free to join in the conversation. These other guys are too busy yapping to say hello so I'll say it for them. I think you'll enjoy this place. Lots of good folks and good advice.

 

[Penforhire]

It is an interesting comparison, even knowing reports like Olympic's are biased. I suppose the best of both worlds would be an o/u combo gun. How about a 12 ga upper and 223 (or pistol caliber) lower? The 12 should stop 'em and the 223 is there for extra ammo, without having to switch weapons, only triggers.